Killer vs Survivor - the imbalance is pressure
Survivors start the game with pressure on the killer. As the game goes on, survivors increase that pressure on the killer, unless the killer can quickly remove survivors from the game. That's what leads to both tunneling and camping (real or perceived) as well as complaints about second chance perks (counter-able or not). The game is about whether the killer can get a quick and easy kill before 3 gens pop or not. If the killer can, there's still something of a game. If not, it's near auto-win for the survivors unless they seriously misplay.
So this is my idea that I've been kicking around for a bit and I am genuinely curious what people think. The actual values are not something I am proposing just a general principle.
Equalize the pressure:
- An Entity timer starts at the beginning of the match for the generators to be completed. Reasonably generous, but not infinite. Similar to the timer when the gates open - if you're still in the trial when the timer expires, poof. Fewer points are awarded to the killer for Entity sacrifices than killer sacrifices. Both killer and survivors receive Entity sac points as an "evenly matched" bonus.
- The timer extends when a survivor is sacrificed - losing a teammate gives you more time.
- A Hex: Ruin type effect exists on all generators. Regression (to some degree) is the default state.
- Gen repair speeds with one person repairing are slightly reduced from the current rate, but gen repair speeds with multiple survivors are slightly increased. Gen repair speeds in general slow down slightly with each completed generator, but increase with each sacrificed survivor.
- Downed survivors are able to heal as they crawl at a slower rate, but are all able to heal back to injured without requiring a teammate.
- Both doors automatically open after the last gen is completed.
- BBQ is a default killer ability. DH and self care are default survivor abilities.
What this does:
- It provides an incentive for killers to roam to push survivors off generators and also to chase, without incentivizing the killer to tunnel or camp during and after the chase. For the killer, quick kills become less valuable, chases that only injure become more valuable. For the survivor, chases have higher stakes (the time wasted is also theirs) actually escaping earns more value.
- It encourages more teamplay from survivors without penalizing teams with random potatoes too much.
- It encourages more strategic thinking from survivors - when/if to heal, which generators to do, etc.
- It reduces the advantage the killer gets for reducing survivor numbers.
- It gives the killer more paths to a satisfying game than just getting as many kills as possible.
- It makes survivors less safe without making them more killable.
They seem like realistic changes (in the sense that they're generally possible, not in the sense that they're likely) and while they might seem like killer buffs on the face of it I think that's because right now the survivor role only faces pressure from the killer, while the killer faces pressure from both the survivors and the game.
Thoughts?
Comments
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I don't like it. The timer would have to be at least 15 minutes base, or a killer like Billy would be unstoppable. You wouldn't have to chase survivors, just find a 3 gen and run out the clock.
Ruin had this game as close to balanced as I've seen, it bought you time in the early game. All they need to do is slow down the early game a bit, make it feel like you're not at the mercy of survivors for time, and the game will be about perfect.
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Good point. What if you just add another gen or two to the map so it becomes 4 or 5 gen instead of 3? Even just slowing down gen repair early game still leaves the incentive for killers to get an early kill, it just makes it easier for them to get it and/or potentially start snowballing. I'm thinking of a way to give incentives for just chasing in general, for killers, other than getting a down.
Right now a chase is win/win for survivors and win/lose for killers, and that's where I think a lot of the issues come from. Just making changes based on the survivability of survivors seems like it won't fix the fundamental issue.
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That's what made ruin so perfect, and their decision to change it so incredibly stupid. It bought you time, but you knew that time was limited, so tunneling or camping was a bad idea. If they wanted to change it, they should have just made it a timer.
My whole hangup on the timer is that it wouldn't do anything for killer. Any match that goes 15 minutes is already going to swing in killer favor.
How you make chases more rewarding is to make it where committing to one doesn't cost you the game. As killer, you can literally make a game ending mistake in 80 seconds. To do that, you either need to increase gen times, or make it so you can't chain loops together.
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Well thought out at the least
Tho I'm not for all of it
Killer pressure is really impossible and the entire gameplay of this game is predicted on survivor mistakes
And that's why many killers frequent bain is that survivor perks punish killers for survivor mistakes while killer perks increase the killers perception of the game.
Like DS punishes a killers success in chasing and downing survivors while rewarding the mistake of unsafe hooks.
Heals you from dying to injured instantly.
Breaks the killers grasp, stuns the killer, forces the killer to loose view so the survivor can run away and hide.
Where as killer perks in the meta like whispers or stridor barely increase things you would already know by turning up volume or having the same fov as survivors... everything else has huge drawbacks or cooldowns impossible to plan like how I can hook someone to activate pop but there's no generator anywhere near or if it is it could already be regressing... and if I hook two people because I go from hook right into a chase to quickly the perk fails to work at all because id be forced to choose between gen pressure and killing...
Fundamentally killer role vs survivor role the survivors for some reason... i really don't get it... the killer role thats outnumbered and can't use teamwork has all the drawbacks. Limited information terrible basekit... the supernatural monster does everything weaker then humans its really weird. He can't see as much, clime over things as fast, he can be ran around in circles like a scooby dew villain...
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Adding DH and SC to default base survivor is a terrible idea, same for BBQ. Imagine if you combined Sprint Burst and DH, that'd be broken. SC at base just feels cheap, it's fine as it is. And BBQ at base also feels cheap.
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You'd still be exhausted so it'd be a choice. And when 90% of killers all run the same perk it's probably a sign that it should just be a killer ability.
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Well that's what I'm trying to do but in the opposite direction. Chases are fun, but they're also where the killer was supposed to have the advantage. They still kind of do, but it's a razor's edge. Mess up or chase for a little too long (and you'll only know when it's too late) and you've lost the game. Plus the development of looping as an established mechanic and the introduction of a number of survivability perks makes chases ever easier to extend.
I feel like there needs to be a mechanic so that survivors are encouraged to try and end chases early, too. Maybe if they had some time pressure too (and we reduce how easy scratch marks are to follow) then it wouldn't always be in the survivor's (as a whole) best interest to be pursued by a bloodthirsty monster murderer.
The problem with just changing gen speeds or how easy it is to kill a survivor is that it misses the mark and becomes an auto-win too easily with tiny changes either way, because it doesn't affect that fundamental dynamic. If it's easier for the killer to get that first kill, a bunch of games will get better but the balance swings way in the killer's favor and so the survivors will (rightfully) complain. If it's too hard, it's the opposite. And, given disparities in skill level, it just means a whole lot of dissatisfaction when everybody played well enough to be satisfied. The current dynamic is "all or nothing," and there's little pleasure in ending up a few spots down on the scoreboard.
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That's still a terrible idea. I think that's ridiculous. Keep DH as a perk, do you want survivors to be even stronger at base? You don't even need perks for them right now to win.
Also, BBQ isn't used by "90%" of the killers, there are other meta builds that don't use it. Anyways, it shouldn't be a killer ability at base, It's more suited to being a perk and isn't necessary.
If you were to add some perks to base, I'd suggest Kindred and Monstrous Shrine. Monstrous Shrine might sound ridiculous, but it'd make the basement just a bit more threatening. Heck, you could also add Beast of Prey to the base, but that'd be OP.
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I am trying to make survivors stronger at base, because I would be introducing a method to make them significantly less safe at the same time. I am trying to encourage chases that are fun for both sides, while making it a priority for both sides to end the chase as early as possible.
DH at base with no other changes is ridiculous. DH at base when the survivors are as concerned about how long the chase is as the killer is seems less so, as it's primarily just a tool to extend a chase. Same with SC. It's useful, but time-consuming. That should be the strategic choice for everyone, not just the killer. Right now delays are just annoying for survivors because they have as much time as they want, which is why they complain about Legion and Ruin and Forever Freddy, etc.
Yes, there are other meta builds that exist that don't utilize BBQ. But what's the advice to a new killer starting out in terms of priority? Get BBQ as quickly as possible. The reason I include it at base is to also put more stakes on the chase - if gen repair becomes super important and getting hooked reveals everyone, you should try to not get hooked. From the killer's perspective, it provides an incentive to hook when a method is introduced for them to not necessarily have to.
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