Pop goes the weasel and DS
Comments
-
Coming from a hybrid player, DS and pop are both fine. I wish DS had some restrictions, like if another Survivor is hooked it deactivates, but overall it's not that bad. I'd argue adrenaline is worse, nothing like closing down on a chase going to hit but "boom sprint burst and full health state" or two on the ground one is picked up to hook and as you go to pick up the other "boom sprint burst and Unbreakable effects combined."
Don't get me wrong, any second chance perk on its own is fine but they all synergize too well with each other, which is ultimately the issue, much like all the killer gen slow downs synergized too well with each other (now the only two that really do are overcharge and pop) DS by itself isn't really the problem, the problem is: Slug to avoid DS, survivor picks up with Unbreakable or Survivor with DS has borrowed and unhooks in your face which is now a wasted hit no matter which Survivor you go for.
As far as pop goes from the Survivor side, it's an inconvenience at best. From the killer side pop is very situational and most killers won't stop a chase to pop a gen unless it's already almost done.
0 -
I’m curious tho yes while people doing that would suck. it isn’t an anti tunnel perk tho is it? so if that becomes a cost to lowering its ability to guarantee a win during egc if everyone has it I don’t see anything wrong in lowering its timer or something.
0 -
I love both pop and DS, and both are counterable, well they are as of the next update when survivors can block gens. I honestly don't see why people want changes to DS. it does its purpose as an anti tunnel perk.
0 -
Pop is fine the way it is. It's the strongest perk killers have, and that's not saying much. It can be stronger on mobile killers, and god like on Freddy, but it's still fair game. DS would be fine if it would just de-activate when they start repairing a gen. Being able to jump off a hook and work on a gen care free tho is complete BS. How is that balance?
0 -
I know there will never be a perk to shield you from a determined Killer, however the existing iteration barely helps with tunneling is the issue. Effective doesn't mean extremely powerful. Imo the game should inherently discourage it by introducing a mechanic or significant emblem/BPS adjustments to make it less appealing. The Killer should have the freedom to tunnel but that choice should come at a price. The current price isn't enough of a determent, especially with DS working once but tunneling can occur twice.
And you're not saying anything new, all of those complaints are about placating The Killer and none address the other side of the equation. Even your last statement "anti-tunnel situations" is code for being useless. List your version of a DS that exclusively works for tunneling but nothing else. What does that look like? And are Killers really prepared for that? No, many just want to be able to tunnel more easily and freely.
1 -
You can tell a perk is a problem when in every match there is a constant threat of it being there, the shear possibility that a survivor is running DS changes the way most people play the game, as getting hit by it, if played correctly on the survivor side (which entails getting to a pallet), can result in massive time loss. A perfect example of this on the killer side was old Ruin, survivors would actively start games searching for totems because everyone assumed the killer was running ruin. In the context of this discussion DS is an active threat that changes the way a killer plays the game regardless of if a survivor has it or not. Pop is not the same, it is rewarded for good decisions and game-play and isn't a perk that you get extreme benefits from just by equipping it, DS and Old Ruin have/had this problem. Pop is something you adapt to after seeing that the killer has the perk, and doesn't scare you into playing a different way the second the game starts. You could be saying that "The possibility of the killer having Pop could change whether I commit to a gen or leave it, therefore it is a threat!" Here's the problem with that argument, that can be applied to most perks in the game, Unbreakable, Dead Hard, Borrowed Time, Sprint Burst, STBFL, PWYF, Enduring, hell even Brutal Strength changes the way you play the game. Perks will always affect game play after seeing that someone has them, but a perk thats threat is so strong that it changes the way everyone plays just because of the possibility that someone has it is unhealthy for the game and an easy identifier of a problematic perk, I do not promote tunneling in any way but DS is not okay in it's current state in the eyes of many. Ruin had this same problem and was thankfully changed in order to help the health of the game and the flow of game-play. Thanks for coming to my Ted-Talk.
Sorry this was so long, I would appreciate feedback on holes in my argument or things I missed and not just "DS is balanced because killer OP"
TL;DR: The active threat of DS is unhealthy for the game like old Ruin, and needs to be changed. Pop is rewarded by good game-play and should not be compared to Decisive.
2 -
For full disclosure, i started this game as a killer main. Last 6 months or so i statted favoring survivor as its just plain easier and less stressful. Im rank 4-5 survivor but would probably get higher if i played more than 4 or 5 games every other day. As killer i was rank 8 once and now sit between 10 and 12. I have about 1000 hours in the game.
I do not run DS as a rule, simply because i do not like it. However, i have realized the difference in games when an obsession is present compared to not. I have a whole thread about it and why i think DS is the strongest perk in the game. I do run sole survivor to ensure an obsession.
That out of the way.
I will admit to being somewhat killer biased, as that is the rolebi started with. I do my best to look at both sides when forming opinions. I feel i can do this as i do play both sides.
DS is not considered an anti tunnel perk by the Devs. Instead it gives blanket immunity from being placed back on a hook within 60 seconds. During which time a survivor can jump on a gen and nearly complete it. Cleanse 4 totems. Unhook every survivor 3 or so times. Fully heal with self-care under slippy butcher twice. Fully heal others 4 times under sloppy butcher. Now muliply that by 4 and the problem starts to emerge.
How i would see it being fair, is either
1) change timer to ~30 seconds. Timer pauses while in a chase. Any action other than healing deactivates the perk. Fully healing deactivates the perk. Can be used after both hooks.
Or
2) remove the ability to get up from dying state without another person. No unbreakable or no mither.
Again nothing is going to stop a killer from killing you if they want. The first change makes it an anti tunnel perk. The second removes a somewhat abusable perk interaction.
1 -
-
I was cool with all of these till the Sabo one. Imagine a four man all running sabo. Might as well as take us back to when it was first brought into the game and all killers really had were basement hooks.
0 -
Personally I don't have a issue with either. Unless someone tries to abuse their DS.
0 -
DS time in its current state is fine. The problem is the abuse of it such as hopping in lockers mid-chase to force it to go off or repairing gens while expecting the Killer to grab you.
0 -
I think pop is fine as is. It rewards the killer for doing their objective, hooking survivors.
I think DS needs a change. The problem is that survivors are given DS for free and if there's an obsession the killer has to treat every survivor as if they have it, keeping track of all four of them and how recently they've been hooked. This is very difficult (near impossible) when multiple survivors have been hooked and unhooked within a short amount of time. Once the match devolves into chaos, as most do, good luck managing each survivors DS. Not to mention if survivors are playing the same characters with the same or similar cosmetics.
You get the point I'm trying to make. It's just too much info for one person to manage.
The best change idea I've heard for DS so far is only allowing a single DS to be active at a time. Once a survivor has been unhooked their DS becomes active and all other DS's deactivate. Simple, I like it, and it still allows DS to be an anti-tunnel perk.
0 -
Then why not have the perk deactivate once the killer hooks someone else, chase someone else for a period of time or if that person is fully healed because by then they are not being tunnel an we won't have survivors making "risky" in your killer face plays an get free escape. Not to mention (this part is situational) end game where the gates are at 99 or open an they get a safe its literally a free escape for the DS user. Just add restrictions to it or something. No one can deny the over use it is seeing and annoyance it has like object of obsession which is a different topic but still.
0 -
just nerf the stun duration since you nerfed enduring, would be more than fair
4 -
It is not strictly an anti-tunnel perk. It is a free escape if the killer allows it and if it is an endgame escape then he played bad anyway and doesn't deserve the kill if the survivor had the perk equipped. Secondly, since killers that hate DS love restrictions to perks, why not add restrictions to other strong perks such as BBQ or PGTW? If the killer does X or Y, then BBQ is disabled for the rest of the match. If killer camps a survivor for x number of seconds, then NOED will never activate??
0 -
So if someone save them with BT an they have DS it's a free escape an killer played bad. Some iQ you got there. An most good killer perks reward killer for doing what they do an survivor perks reward bad plays or help them get out of situations. One rewards being good while the other fixes errors that survivor made. An if NOED is activated an he camps again that's end game what do you want the killer to do? Oh wait your profile pic is a laurie no wonder you defend DS so hard. If the killer tunnels DS SHOULD be activated but if no an that DS user is free to do whatever then why have it still activated for that whole minute?
1 -
If all 5 gens got started, the gates are opened, yea I would say you played bad, I wouldn't blame it on a perk.
How is it the survivor's mistake when you are the one that picked them up or chased the same person?
1 -
If it wasn't strong, I wouldn't see it 99.999999% of the time. As killer, I would never not use it either, it is that powerful! Lockers are not always nearby and if survivors are always hiding or running across the map to jump in lockers to avoid BBQ, then the objective will never get completed, or is that actually what you want, to never get completed?
0 -
But just about every meta survivor perk does exactly what you just described. Killer plays well, survivor uses a get-out-of-jail-free card. That removes their opponents objective progress. And these perks are not going anywhere.
Don't get me wrong, I would understand that argument if Pop just, out of the blue, once per match, let you fully reset the progress of a generator (that would make it about as equal as the good old Unbreakable meta). But as it is, it is a perk that makes every single hook valuable, which without it is just not the case. That's why snowballing is a thing. And, I would remind you, overcharge is an extremely weak perk BECAUSE it is dependant on a skillcheck. A rather easy skillcheck. And the Devs refuse to make it more difficult because the one perk that had harder skillchecks for completely reworked a few months ago and kicked off the PGTW meta and PGTW complaints.
0 -
I love bloodpoints but I hardly use We're Gonna Live Forever. Why is We're Gonna Live Forever not also tied to gen repairs? That's the actual objective for survivor.
All of your counters are mostly invalid because they are not consistent. Distortion is only 3 times so it would be deactivated in no time, it needs buffed to be unlimited and then I will consider it a solid counter. Sole Survivor means you have to be the last survivor alive to have maximum effect. "Let the killer see where you are, and move away after 4 seconds" doesn't work most of the time because freddy, hillbilly, oni, spirit can get to where you are before you can even hide. Huntress can throw a HUGE hatchet and hit you above your head. Many maps it is difficult to find a locker nearby and hiding behind a generator doesn't work anymore. I think buffing distortion to unlimited would be perfectly fair and it might actually force killers to swap BBQ out for another perk.
0 -
Because BBQ, infectious freight, nurses calling, and all other aura perks have unlimited use. Why does whispers work throughout the entire match and still work for the last survivor trying to open the gate and get out? There is no reason for distortion to be limited and then be dead for the majority for the match.
0 -
So in a situation where 3 people are alive an the killer tries to secure 1 more kill, they cant have it braces of a perk an play bad? Bruh what is you on. Just admit and see how ds is a issue
2 -
I bet you could buff distortion to unlimited and BBQ would still beat distortion for pick rates. BBQ is godly.
0 -
The problem on DS is when all team using same perk will abuse you and force you to play change style (Slug)
Like really, the only change/rework i want is make obsession get stronger DS but non-obsession get weaker DS
0 -
damn that ds change is genius. love ya
preach!
4 -
As Devon use to say testify !
2 -
This ^ I can't agree with you more, BBQ op lmfao I feel like we aren't playing the same game.
You give 8 examples of how to counter BBQ but BBQ is "Godly" smh.
I feel like those that say that BBQ is op just don't know how to loop and are just doing gens, not even trying to learn how to loop.
I love using BBQ with trapper, I guess according to the complainer BBQ helps me a lot with him, a set up killer....
1 -
Peantis picks up the easier argument to respond to and ignores the ACTUAL ones.
He didn’t even consider other possibilities when a killer is not tunneling and still get hit by DS.
1 -
Pop
If you down a survivor and hook them
if your near a generator
If that generator has at least 25% progress
If noone else is around to start a chase thats priority
If the gen isn't already regressing if its not on cooldown works for a limited time
Synergizes with nothing.
You may kick it wasting 3 seconds of your own time in animation alone to reset 12seconds of surviors time...
DS
60 seconds of the killer cant touch you, activates when unhooked witch is every match and is useful everywhere...insta heals you from the dying state back to injured, breaks grasp, stuns killer, and synergize with the entire meta. Guaranteed endgame escape
Pop isnt meta because its great... its meta because killers are desperate for any perk that's useful desperate to buy a few seconds to have a chance against these superhuman justice league class heros who stomp them more then 70% of the time.
2 -
What a laughable statement
2 -
Is is an anti-tunnel perk. Devs have said its just not purely an anti tunnel perk. It is intended to stop tunneling, but it also covers other bases, which is too much imo.
@csandman1977 Read above. Idk what survivor main started this narrative of devs not considering it an anti-tunnel perk, but they do. Again, that's just not all they consider it.
0 -
Eating the ds is not a counter
Waiting is not a counter
Many matches i had survivors escape at the exit gates because i couldn't pick up them
The truth is that without DS, survivors would cry
There's already BT, why would you need DS?
DS should be deactivated as soon as you do a secondary action like heal or repair
Plus
Noed and DS are definitely something not comparable
Only survivors could say something like that, it's stupid
The truth is that DS is used as a life-insurance to roam around the map unhooking, doing objectives and healing teammates knowing that you can't be hooked
That's not an anti-tuneling perk as it is right now, devs said it
It's WAY MORE STRONGER
0 -
Yeah i would agree with you, that buffing distortion to endless uses would nerf the tracking ability of not just bbq but other perks into the ground. Heck buffing distortion to endless uses, would not just counter bbq but any aura reading perk. Ghostface's perk, i'm all ears. Well that thrown out the window and made a worthless perk to any survivor that is using distortion. Ghostface ultra rare add on, security camera becomes worthless, woot, even more reason not to use anything beside the recovery add ons. Oni bloody glove ultra rare add on, becomes worthless vs this survivor. Not only that but if distortion had endless uses. Oh my lord. That would be to powerful. Object of obsession, you could always see the killer and they could never see you. You would be unaware anyone is running object of obsession until it's to late. So in a game of a 4 vs one, the group of 4 can always have perfect information as to where the killer is at all times. It was already bad enough when object of obsession used to work on sneaky killers like ghostface. Now buffing distortion to endless uses and combine that with object. Would easiest become one of the most broken, unbalance things to exist in the game currently. Bbq, killer has to work to earn that information. Object of obsession with endless distortion, a survivor gets perfect information, just for merely existing and not having to do jack to earn it.
Yeah the funny thing about bbq is op and two powerful is. It's a 4 vs one game. The killer can only bring in four perks. Survivors can each bring in 4 perks of their own, leading to a total of 16 perks for survivors vs four killer perks. Even if they were right about bbq being a god tier perk, that doesn't mean it needs to be nerf. It would only make sense the perks a killer would bring into the game, would be stronger than the perks the survivors can bring in. Since the killer is one single person, going up against a team of people. A killer or the one player, is going to need some sort of edge or benefit over the team of four, to stand a chance and not get destroy each and every time.
1 -
I do agree with you, the thing is that 4 seconds seeing a survivor is good but with most killers it won't matter, bbq is strong with killers like oni, huntress, nurse, maybe spirit with speed addons, billy and I think that's it (my brain is toasted at the moment "5:13 a.m") but seeing a survivor for 4 seconds give a killer a chance of knowing where to go, some of us don't have 7k hours on this game to develop some godly gaming sense, so bbq helps not camp and going for the next chase that is what people don't seem to realize, yeah there are a lot of campers etc that use it but that is a different topic.
Even if bbq got nerfed by removing the aura of the survivors I would still use it, I use wglf when I play survivor just because I love bp.
But you really did covered up a lot of things and I agree with you.
1 -
Decisive strike is one of the most brain dead perks in the game. It serves you 60 second immunity if you get hooked (failing) and punishes killer for having good snowball going and multiple survivors hooked. Sure you can slug them, but you aren't guaranteed to find new survivor and you essentially avoided one hook stage because of perks passive ability.
0 -
DS is even easier to counter, a lot of times it never gets used and it doesn't give any extra bloodpoints. If BBQ is unlimited uses, distortion should be too.
0 -
But bbq isn't unlimited it's 11 hooks tops, no offense but right now you sound really entitled, while I really think distortion needs a buff, making it unlimited is really unfair if paired up with OoO
4 -
Yeah, i love me some blood points as well. Which is why i do love running we're gonna live forever, when playing survivor, since i normally can't think of anything good for that fourth slot, i wanna run. Of course i would rather buff up we're gonna live forever. Which i believe the devs were going to do. I will have to double check on that later, just to make sure. So take it with a gain of salt for now. Yet if bbq was nerf to only being a blood point bonus. Well i would still use it, in a blood point farming build.
Which yeah i agree with your points, on bbq being useful and helping to promote getting into the next chase and not camping. Which is why i question the people wanting to nerf it or remove that ability from it. Since it like, why not make we're gonna live forever more like bbq and give it a secondary effect, rather than making bbq more like we're gonna live forever. That way, rather than dragging everyone down into the mud, we are building them up.
Ds makes you the obsession when it goes off. If you die as the obsession or escape, you get blood points for being the obsession. I think it 1000 for dying as the obsession and 1500 points for escaping as the obsession. So that is possibly a few more points for you, if you were not already the obsession and no other ds goes off and the killer is not running something like Nemesis. So while it might not always grant you more points, it can possibly grant you more points. Depending on how the game goes.
0 -
lmao ok let me counter DS by opening a locker, or turning around after 5 seconds, or standing behind a gen. These all completely counter the tracking of BBQ, nothing in the game completely counters DS except a mori, which is a 1 time use offering. DS is one of, if not the most unbalanced perk in the game right now. It only has tactics to lessen its impact, but nothing the killer does will make DS not waste time. BBQ has so many counters its not even funny. Distortion counters a lot of perks and will also clue you in as to what the killer is running, unlimited would be broken without some serious requirements like being the last survivor alive or something. Survivor bias and entitlement at its finest.
1 -
By "more bold plays" you mean unhooking in front of the killer or jumping on gens with little to no punishment(because lets be honest, we all know you're running unbreakable). DS is probably the best anti tunneling perk in the game but its mostly used as a "I can do whatever I want for 60 seconds and if you slug me I'll just pop my unbreakable".
1 -
It's really not a case of PGtW becoming an amazing perk all of the sudden. If Hex: Ruin wasn't nerfed then it would still be king. PGtW is just the current best option available to killers.
1 -
Exactly this. It's painful. There are so many other anti-tunneling perks. I mean Sprint Burst/Dead Hard/Lithe/Balanced Landing all reset on unhook anyways. Then throw Borrowed Time and Adrenaline in and you have invincible perks- and that's before we get to all of the full cornucopia of other perks meant specifically for this like Breakout, Off the Record, or so on and there's no real reason to keep Decisive Strike.
But of course most players are survivor mains and they'll cry if they're not overpowered enough.
1 -
Make DS’s timer lower and also make it so that killers no longer have unlimited slugging capabilities.
The coin has two sides, unbreakable only works once and yet I see people slugging survivors multiple times (with their dying state bar being the only timer) because they KNOW how easy it is and convenient.
DS is fine as it is. Learn to adapt.
0 -
"Adapt" here means "suck my DS and like it". It sucks man. It's a fundamentally bad perk. There are already many,many other perks that help in tunnel-off-hook situations. This one is bad because it grants invincibility and rewards survivors for being trash. It also punishes the killer for being good, and often even if they're fair. The perk idea comes from the original Halloween movie where Laurie Strode stabs Mikey to get him away. Think about what this really feels like for the killer: you're basically stabbing in the face and resetting a chase right after they got through with a chase. It's even worse when survivors play in SWFs and have three buddies on standby to body block. It's the single thing that's ruining the game more than anything else. There's no excuse for running it.
1 -
Invincibility suggests that the survivor cannot go down. Which they can.
1 -
Overcharge is way too easy to hit. Half a great, now we're talking.
0 -
There isn't even a cool down lol
0 -
No, invincibility means they have a hard reset button on the situation even if the killer plays well. Even if they play fairly. The invincibility you're talking about already exists with Borrowed Time, Adrenaline, etc etc. We don't need another form of it out there. It's painful, especially when you expect killers to suck on up to 4 of these. I played the other day in 8 games and EVERY SINGLE TEAM ran them. In most of those games, every single person ran them.
Now, if they cared about not getting tunneled on hook, they could have run perks like Breakdown and Off the Record specifically designed for this. They didn't. They all ran this one perk. It's not because they care about fairness or just getting tunneled- everyone knows it's stupid powerful. It's extremely selfish to imply this kind of thing is fair. Especially when survivors are running at the killer or bodyblocking hoping to get to use it. It is an offensive perk and inspires offensive behaviour in the group that is supposed to be running defense.
I'm just tired of getting into games where I see a team, some of them in the same clothes so I can't figure out who has just got off the hook and who does it, but then move into attack *whoops a dead hard!* but that's okay because I'm just going to hit them and *whoops a borrowed time!* and that's fine because I've hit them twice and now *whoops a decisive strike!* okay I'll just keep chasing and *whoops there goes two gens back to back* so it looks like I really need to catch this guy soon and *whoops a few pallet drops and another generator down!* but that's okay because I'm finally at him, hit him, drop him and boy oh boy does this feel good I'll just pick him up and *whoops a flashlight with odd bulb*.
1 -
Ruins still good. Id say it's better. What kind of idiot can't hit greats?
0
