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Killer mains help me understand...
I’ve always been curious as to why killers find some perks to be so game breaking... Why is DS such an issue? BT? Unbreakable? Feel free to add any other perks that are extremely effective that you all have problems with.
This is an attempt to understand the complaints, not an attack. At most I’ll just respond with what I think are simple counters, ways around, etc.
Comments
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DS = sometimes you literally forget you hooked a specific survivor and get 59 second DS'd which robs your momentum even though you potentially hooked OTHER survivors in the meantime.
BT = some survivors literally use it to defend the unhooker by bodyblocking the killer basically forcing the killer to tunnel and eat the ds.
Unbreakable = can literally reset the entire match if all 4 survivors play recklessly and end up getting slugged. One single perk out of 4 survivors can reset the entire match.
NOTE: NONE OF THE ABOVE REFLECTS MY PERSONAL OPINION IN ANY WAY WHATSOEVER BUT THESE ARE MOST LIKELY WHY SOME KILLERS HATE THESE PERKS WITH A PASSION.
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I only think that adrenaline is broken since they can use it while exhausted, its so ######### boring see a guy with 8 seconds of sprint burst (3 because of the sprint burst perk, 5 by adrenaline that popped out at the same time that sprint burst ended). Also my biggest problem as killer is the speed of the gens, that thing goes so fast that is unbalanced
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No one considers the perks you mentioned game breaking aside from the extreme nuts and those are few and far between.
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To find out why DS is an issue look at game footage of survivors jumping into lockers with DS up and see that the killer can do NOTHING in that situation:
If the killer opens the locker they get hit by DS.
If they leave the locker then they lose out on what should be a slug(Not hook but just a slug).
Another issue with DS is that survivors can DS when they get grabbed while trying to unhook. Which means a free double unhook without the 2nd Savoir being put into danger despite not respecting the killer at all.
I personally don't have an issue with unbreakable but most people hate it for comboing with DS making it so even if you do slug the survivor still gets away from a bad play.
BT IMO just makes survivors stupid as it makes them not respect the killer's distance from the hook and makes it so survivors can get away with really stupid unhooks. BT is a good anti camp perk but it also lets them do stupid plays against non campers.
TLDR: Effectively the issue is with these is that they punish the killers for good plays while rewarding survivors for making bad plays.
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I find none of them a problem as long as you target the unhooker which 100% of the time I always do.
If you can't keep track of who was unhooked, that's on you, not the survivors fault.
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I honestly never find any of these to be a problem. If the person who got unhooked is stupid enough to dive in front of me, then they're gonna go off and mend. Let them waste their time. If I've slugged someone, either their friends are gonna go and pick them up OR I've just made you waste your perk. DS doesn't matter to me because I'm either too far away to care, or busy punishing the idiot who unhooked you in my face. Or I've just slugged you because I've accidentally dashed into you with Nurse's, which means you're now free to waste your Unbreakable instead.
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Game breaker no, game changing yes, a single DS can make you lose the match, if you are using a killer like Oni, an unbreakable will make his power have consequences.
It is not the perk's power it's how people abuse it, you get unhooked with BT, start body blocking the killer if he is there if he is going for the unhooker, then if the killer is smart he/she will wait the 15 seconds and you as a survivor will complain to the killer that he was tunneling because you body blocked him/her.
DS allows dumb plays that punish the killer, like going to unhook someone else immediately in the killer's face because you have a 60 second advantage and if paired up with unbreakable unless the killer wants to eat the DS you are free to go.
Some survivors will still do the locker DS thing, while the devs say that it's not an anti tunneler perk it does work like it.
Something that I want to add to the BT since that is actually an anti tunnel perk, am I actually tunneling you if you are body blocking me and not letting me go for the unhooker?
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Imo they aren't game breaking it's that they're annoying to face almost every match, they synergize too well together, see @Warcrafter4's comment, and when I play Survivor I see too many of my teammates try to force use out of them or make terrible plays because they have them equipped.
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Ds is broken because the perk give survivor a 1 minute immunity during that time thet can do whatever they want whitout getting punish and if you happen to find the survivor who have ds that mean he could not hide or run the killer so the killer is punish for chasing the first person he see
Unbreakable can reset a match when every is slug down and the killer start hooking them and if the perk is pair with DS its an unstopable combo you are sure to get up no matter what
BT i understand the need of BT but the perk itself encourage bad unhook a lot of the time i follow the scratch mark that lead to the hook and i see the guy that get follow unhooking the survivor in front of me and naturally you will hit the injured survivor for the slug but BT activate and if you leave the injured survivor alone he will try to body block because of BT he know he is invicible for x amount of time
Adrenaline is a problem too the perk is kinda balance but the fact the perk activate on hooked survivor is stupid and gen are really fast if i see 4 adrenaline activate during a game i know its a 100% lost i have nothing to do exept waiting for the survivor to be tired with the end game t bag
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i completely understand the frustration with DS in relation to lockers since it can be a nuisance to see someone jump in a locker mid-chase & have to decide whether they’re attempting a DS or head on... but in terms of a DS unsafe unhook wouldn’t it be much less problematic to lunge rather than grab? a free slug and you nullify DS
im curious as to how you feel about the idea of ignoring who was unhooked for the full 60 seconds? don’t waste a chase unless it’s a quick down via nurses calling? nullify what in 2020 dbd feels like an anti-tunnel perk & make more progress on different survivors? (also pyramid head seems like an efficient counter)
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Here's the thing: A grab overrides lunges as they are command priority so there are times where they are so close and having to wait out BT's 15 seconds you'd be forced into a grab by either reaching the other hook in 15 seconds(If they have Sprint burst its actually rather easy for them to do) and thus having enduring making the lunge do nothing or you being close enough where a grab is forced by the game itself).
I do usually ignore the person who is unhooked if they run away but if they just try to body block for 15 seconds they are getting slapped down after those 15 seconds are up.
TLDR: These perks comboing can be why the situation you mention doesn't work.
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if they body block with BT you of course should just hit them & force them to flee. it’s a wasted hit & extra time but under certain circumstances that extra few seconds would not compare (maybe a few sweaty add-ons, a mori if you’re having a rough day vs continuous swf).
& also would it not be a winning situation for someone who, let’s say is under their 60 second DS, goes for an unsafe unhook? you are granted an effortless slug (being that you just hooked them you should recognize by a dumb play like that they have DS) and are forcing one of, if not both of the remaining two survivors to stop doing gens and help their teammates.
if this survivor who is playing reckless under their DS has unbreakable it would be at the killers advantage for them to waste their only self-recover because they wanted a cool clip. all of the attention has now been converted from gens to the helpless survivors
im interested in your rebuttal! i think there are also a few killer perks which can strategically nullify both BT and DS (for the most part)
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They're not game breaking, it's just that they're quite (insanely so in the right hands) strong when used intelligently.
I think it upsets people when they feel powerless against them or if they feel like the Survivors are using their perks like a shield so they can taunt or hinder them.
This isn't to say that the perks are perfectly fine - just that I don't think that it's the perks themselves that are what frustrates most people, but rather how they're used.
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ah, yes in that situation there’s actually nothing to be done but eat the DS lmao (or back up for an awkward lunge but if we’re being real nobody’s gonna do that unless they have DS PTSD)
although it’s what i would consider annoying & repetitive, wouldnt you say it’s also not the worst outcome? someone with BT has to take the time to unhook this person running DS, who also has to waste time running over to help the other person who’s hooked. 3 out of 4 people (assuming no one is dead yet) are not touching gens & one of them is recklessly using his DS for what could be a waste (the time to unhook after hitting a DS in a way nullifies the stun and you’ll still have time to down someone).
let’s say one of the unscathed survivors comes to body block or take a hit.. again it’s an annoying thing to deal with but you now have 3 people who’ll be injured if you end up not downing anyone
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Let's see...
And...
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All those "second chance" perks punish the killer for playing well and reward the survivor for playing bad. They also all force the killer to play in the least optimal way in order to not get punished by them. Against "good" survivors, playing in that least optimal way loses you the game. In other words they force you into a lose/lose scenario. Those perks are "anti-pressure" perks, in a meta where the only way you win as killer is through pressure. They also aren't situational, because as I've mentioned, even if they don't activate, you are still getting extreme value from them because the killer was forced to play in a bad way to prevent them from activating.
Against "good" survivors, you literally do not have the time to 1 hook each survivor one at a time working your way around. The numbers are simply not even remotely there.
None of these perks have legitimate counters either. You go after the unhooked guy (DS, BT), slug the unhooked (Unbreakable), go for the unhooker (unhooked guy body blocks you with BT, DS, Unbreakable). Completely leaving the hook entirely and never going back means you are going for a pass around of 1 hooking each survivors one at a time, which is as I said earlier, a losing choice as well, as you simply do not have the time to do that with how fast gens are.
You also have all the random DS's you'll get hit with as you'll have multiple active at once and can't keep track of them all. They know how long it lasts so they will just refuse to heal and continue gen rushing.
Almost all of the meta killer perks have high costs, skill requirements, downsides, ask something of you, and have counters built into their base kits without even needing a perk as survivor. Meanwhile we look at all the meta survivor perks that almost all have no costs, downsides, skill requirements etc etc or anything of those same things that the killer perks have. The survivor meta perks also almost all stack together, whereas more and more of the killer ones do not stack. Survivor perks quite simply are not held to the same standards that killer perks are.
Just like killer I've played survivor at rank 1 as well for years and it's quite clear to see how busted many of the survivor second chance perks are, especially once you're able to see it from the other perspective.
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Personally I hate using any of those perks as survivor. And it's because they punish the killer for playing how they should.
DS - While the perk itself "discourages tunneling" it has promoted a reckless play style.
Unbreakable - I think it's totally fine to have a perk like this. It doesn't promote bad play, it counters slugging.
Borrowed Time - Protects an injured survivor from damage for a time.
None of these perks alone are necessarily game breaking. But when 2 or more of these "game breaking" perks are used together, I do see it as a problem. And I don't blame survivors for using them, BHVR put them in the game. But now playing killer you don't feel like a hunter/killer, it's a game to see if you can get some kills in between all the stuns, 2nd chance perks and other bullshit BHVR put in the game to make surviving easier.
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in a perk to perk war, survivors will more likely than not trump killers every time.... in a 4v1 queue the devs would of course rather on paper appeal to survivors first. what i see to be an obvious counter are:
-killer perks meant to punish survivors unhooking one another such as MYC or DH... maybe add nurses calling & haunting grounds to compliment one of those perks with a gen rush counter perk as the 4th
-really great add-ons which make survivors lives a tad bit harder (example: myers infinite tier 3)
-ebony mori’s... for some reason killers deal with make your life difficult perks all day but refuse to use their stacked ebony mori’s religiously
ive been rank 1 on both sides so i’ve had my fair share of michael jordan memes, but if you’re facing perks like these constantly why not run some perks, add ons, and offerings that’ll bring your blood pressure down?
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Sooner or later he has to pick someone up, yet all of his options had DS avalible. And even if he picked no one up an slugged both of them they both had adrenaline and would have immediately picked themselves up at no time cost for the Survivors.
Picking up the unhooker
Picking up the unhooked
Picking up no one
All 3 of these should have been valid options. However because of perks all 3 of these are now losing options.
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"in a perk to perk war, survivors will more likely than not trump killers every time.... in a 4v1 queue the devs would of course rather on paper appeal to survivors first."
That's basically the entire point i've been making.
"-killer perks meant to punish survivors unhooking one another such as MYC or DH... maybe add nurses calling & haunting grounds to compliment one of those perks with a gen rush counter perk as the 4th"
As in they have a requirement and a cost, this is basically agreeing with my point.
"-really great add-ons which make survivors lives a tad bit harder (example: myers infinite tier 3)"
I don't really see this as a counter argument as the majority of killers are quite addon dependent. Most of them use those addons just to function at a decent level, not to really have an advantage per say as you are implying. Also, Myers infinite tier 3 addon is literally a meme. As in it is not a strong addon, it is just a fun addon. If you actually get to tier 3 before all the gens are powered you are either playing against low ranks or the survivors are just screwing around. Not to mention you are talking about ultra rares, should we add keys and insta heals to compare evenly here? You get my point.
"-ebony mori’s... for some reason killers deal with make your life difficult perks all day but refuse to use their stacked ebony mori’s religiously"
Why is this even worth mentioning? We are comparing problematic perks, this literally has nothing to do with mori's. They are ultra rare first of all, IE rarer and more expensive. Secondly, if you're gonna add mori's in, then let's throw in keys and insta heals as well. As I said, why are we even talking about mori's, this is irrelevant to the discussion. I personally think mori's and keys need reworks, but that's another topic.
"but if you’re facing perks like these constantly why not run some perks, add ons, and offerings that’ll bring your blood pressure down?"
I already addressed this in my previous post. Calling ultra-rare addons and mori's a "counter" is just illogical. Which perks are you calling counters? I do not believe there are any unless you have some examples.
Why the blood pressure comment? Saying something like that serves no purpose in the conversation other than as an underhanded ego jab.
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Second chance perks could be easily balanced and likely make the meta more interesting if you had a timer or limitation on how many could be used. Like if you use ds you can't use unbreakable to pick yourself up for sixty seconds ala exhaustion.
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The exact problem I have with DS! You play fair and you get hit with DS
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If a killer slugs 4 survivors at once they are the issue.
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People whinge about DS, BT and Unbreakable, but surely Self Care and dead hard are more annoying for killers. Self care is ridiculous and shouldn't exist imo.
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I had a game as Trapper (purple rank) vs swf red rank which appeared to be toxic.
I able to down 1 after all Gen finished. Of course I had no choice but camp near the hook. With Save best for last, Rancor, Furtive chase. The body block helped me stack up Save best and down unhooker in 1 hit. Somehow I able to last hook 1st survivor, and others 3 get slugged.
I hooked 2nd survivor, then while I was walking to hook 3rd survivor, the 4th survivor had Unbreakable to unhook 2nd survivor. I came back just swing at them and it was Borrow time on 2nd survivor. 2nd survivor body block for 4th survivor unhook the 3rd. Both 4th & 3rd ran to the gate.
I picked 2nd survivor and I got DS.
I admit that I got salty on that match, it wasnt about outplayed, but robed. Survivors have 12 chances in a trial, having 16 other chances with 16 perks is what make red rank who played long enough to get all teachable perks for that build, compared to new players who barely have more than 2 2nd chance perks. Makes a big difference between new players & red rank.
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let’s not act like ultra rare add ons come at a rarity. assuming you’re a killer main they come pretty much in each bloodweb once you’re around level 35 and up. insta heals aren’t instant they require time for the heal to actually work, 16 seconds unless the survivor runs different perks than the ones i mentioned to start the post. also they’re once a game unlike mori’s which activate per survivor after one hook. so yes let’s consider mori’s in this discussion because, as the person who started the discussion, i stated ill mention ways around the survivor perks or counters per say.
in case you may have forgotten due to the length of the thread, my original perks mentioned were DS, BT, and unbreakable (or any other survivor perks you find utterly game breaking). all of those perks i would say would at least 50-80% of the time be revolved around someone being unhooked. i mentioned either Make Your Choice, or Devour Hope which have a distance from hook requirement. if you run either perk you should also pick a killer with good map pressure to actually get away in time
naturally every killer needs add-ons but there definitely are some make your life difficult add-ons such as legions add-on giving survivors the broken status for a period of time, in addition to the requirement of mending. if the myers perk is so bad then disregard it & imagine add-ons that are very good lmao.
also if your blood pressure doesn’t rise then so be it. it wasn’t an attack to anyone’s ego haha it’s just i get pretty annoyed when survivor friends hit me with some mean plays
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DS and BT are perks that can lose you a game on their own. The only killer perk that does that is NOED. One perk shouldn’t cost the killer or the survivor the game.
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"let’s not act like ultra rare add ons come at a rarity. assuming you’re a killer main they come pretty much in each bloodweb once you’re around level 35 and up. insta heals aren’t instant they require time for the heal to actually work, 16 seconds unless the survivor runs different perks than the ones i mentioned to start the post. also they’re once a game unlike mori’s which activate per survivor after one hook. so yes let’s consider mori’s in this discussion because, as the person who started the discussion, i stated ill mention ways around the survivor perks or counters per say."
When I say insta heal I am not being literal. I call them insta heals because that is what people know them as because that is how they were referred to for so long. Just because they have a timer before the heal now does not mean they are not insanely strong still. Yes, they are a one time use, because there are 4 survivors meaning you can have multiple of them in one game.
If you are honestly going to tell me that you consider "bring a mori" as a legitimate counter argument to preventing "second chance perks", then no one that plays killer and survivor at rank 1 with a decent amount of hours is going to agree with you. That is not a counter argument that almost anyone would agree with.
Survivors also get ultra rares in almost every blood web as well, so now anything a survivor would ever have an issue with in the future no matter how busted it is, you could just say, "bring a key". Problem solved. That would be illogical and would never be an argument I'd make.
"i mentioned either Make Your Choice, or Devour Hope which have a distance from hook requirement. if you run either perk you should also pick a killer with good map pressure to actually get away in time"
And here is where the issue lies, the vast majority of killers don't have good map pressure. The few top tier killers are the ones that do.
Are we mentioning MYC and DH as supposed counters to the aforementioned perks? DH is a hex perk and if you do play at rank 1 as you said, you'd know that hex perks are generally broken within the first minute or so of the game. They are not reliable perks. This is why you rarely see DH ran and when it is, it's mainly for the fun, not because of its strength.
MYC is a good perk, but as you mentioned, very few killers can make good use of it. Most of the ones that can make use of it, aren't the killers that need the help. MYC is also asking you to play inefficiently. You let them get a free save, then instead of pressuring gens you have to go back to the hook and hope you just happen to find the rescuer...who is probably hiding because he knows you have the perk and are gonna come back for him. There are just many cons to this perk as well as being a perk that very few killers can actually make use of. Just as with DH, there is a reason you don't see this perk ran often and it's because of the things I just mentioned.
"naturally every killer needs add-ons but there definitely are some make your life difficult add-ons such as legions add-on giving survivors the broken status for a period of time, in addition to the requirement of mending."
Legion is literally one of the worst killers in the game, even with that addon, so I don't see that as a good example to counter argue with.
"if the myers perk is so bad then disregard it & imagine add-ons that are very good lmao.""
You could put Myers best addons on and he's still barely upper mid tier, ie still not that great. At the end of the day he's still an M1 killer with no mobility and that is never going to be strong against good survivors.
I feel like you're trying to make a point that most killers have addons that make them extremely oppressive, of which I would disagree.
There are maybe a couple I think could use some changes and are slightly oppressive like Iri hatchets, but generally speaking the vast majority of them are not oppressive.
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This kinda shows how little you play killer. Self care is a bad survivor perk and 90% of the people who use it aren't good. DH is dumb, and I wish it behaved a little differently, right now it's just another 2nd chance as long as you have more than 2 braincells.
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I say should be valid because until you bring perks into the picture, they ARE valid.
It's just like how it's valid to loop a pallet several times before dropping it, but if you are playing against a freddy or a doctor suddenly it's no longer valid.
In any case, the issue here isn't that some arbatrary valid option isn't valid because of a perk. That happens all the time and can be fine. The issue here is that ALL of the options are being covered here.
As for solutions. Simply make DS's pre-requisite text be "if you were the last Survivor unhooked then being picked up from the dying state... bla bla bal stun". That way only 1 player can have DS active at a time, and interruption or locker grabs would not trigger the perk. This could even potentially replace the timer mechanic entirely as a counterbalancing buff.
Adrenaline here is only problematic because slugging was the only valid option here. Since this change would give a different solution (hook the unhooker) Adrenaline countering the 3rd option of slugging is no longer an issue.
Basically, countering SOME options is fine at least in theory, countering ALL options is not.
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Note that some alternatives would include giving a way for the Killer to stop DS from activating in the first place. For example with borrowed time, so long as the Survivor on the hook isn't in your terror radius the perks effect won't activate.
Unless your name is Pyramid Head, you have to hook Survivors at some point, so they will inevitably be unhooked thus activating the perk. This is why Adrenaline is a non-issue by comparison, since you can absolutely be expected to stop the last gen from popping under normal circumstances.
For the purposes of the scenario in the video we can replace Adrenaline with Unbreakable for a similar outcome so this doesn't resolve the no-win scenario. But it does explain why I'm targeting DS instead of Adrenaline or Unbreakable here.
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Unbreakable & DS; Vs good survivors who split pressure and pound gens, losing half of 3 separate gens during a 40 second find-chase-hook progression is not viable. That's assuming a 10 second find, a 20 second chase and a 10 second carry to hook. Which I think is quite generous, vs good players. Injuries don't cut it as pressure because skilled loopers with Iron Will and Dead Hard are comfortable playing injured and don't heal.
So how can you possibly get enough pressure?
You slug one, then chase one, and someone has to get the slug. That's 3 people off gens, briefly. The more the survivors apply split pressure, the bigger the map, the more it compensates.
Enter Unbreakable and DS. DS enables the 'stay injured' meta by allowing unhooked players to put extra pressure on the killer for a minute instead of receiving extra pressure from the killer & having to heal. Unbreakable then punishes the killer for trying to counter 'stay injured, pound gens' by slugging. Doubly so if there's DS!
You let the active DS repair vital gens for free? Poor gen cluster, punished. You down and pick up? You spent time to lose pressure, punished. You down and slug? Unbreakable, you spent time to lose pressure, punished.
The only way to deal with any of these perks is to allow the survivor to get huge value out of them, because their activation condition is "killer fulfilled their objective". That's why they're so strong. If you don't tunnel the DS, they'll do gens in your face injured.
If you don't slug the Unbreakables, you give up too much time & too much chase potential hooking everyone every down, and lose.
These perks promote a really unhealthy playstyle where gen time is all survivors need to think about.
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"Just hitting them" by giving them a chance to make it more far away, and no I'm being theoretically, but I've had constant body blocks from survivors with BT when I'm clearly not going after them and that hit that you could've done to the unhooker is enough to actually down most of the time but let's assume they have DS and unbreakable like most of the time that people run DS in my experience, it's a free save and it's not an advantage to slug them most of the time, if they use unbreakable they still have the faster recovery and will have DS by the egc so unless 60 seconds have passed, it's a free escape.
What perks nullify those perks? Noed? It does but I don't use it. Dark devotion? Unless it's the obsession who is not unhooking it doesn't work. Devour hope? Technically it works but it's another hex totem.
You gave Infinite T3 Myers as an example, yeah no, the amount of time it takes to get you the infinite against good survivors......
Check the video above of Scott Jund, even a really good killer gets hit by DS when he wasn't tunneling, except the Kate but not the Claudette.
I'm not saying to not use DS, I just want people to not abuse plays like that.
Basically what @Blueberry is saying is what I want to say but it's 4 a.m and I can't think straight.
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I don't mind solos running them but when full swf runs every meta perk, including that fkin OoO, and abuses the fk out of them, then it becomes an issue.
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Because they are meta perks and it's boring and unfun to face metas. Usually they are also paired up with a lot of sweat.
Before anyone complains (I know, I know)... that's just the surv. side of the story, same goes for killer aswell.
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tbh same is said about survivors thinking Noed is game breaking yet it’s countered before it activates But On your point I don’t find much of an issue to them if they are used as they should be when it comes to doing these sort of exploits I guess you could call them with them then it’s annoying but all in all wasting bt or ds to do a tech can just cause you to be tunneled so that’s on them 🤷🏻♂️🤷🏻♀️
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Simple: each of these perks (among some others) give survivors a "second chance." One alone isn't bad, but when every survivor is running multiple, it simply puts the killer in a situation where they have to play much more effectively and maybe even like a douchebag (which not all killers like doing) just to stand a chance.
It would be one thing if games were longer, but as of now... I don't know. I personally think it's a bit too much with how fast matches are.
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There is no killer perk that downs an injured survivor
1But there is a perk that heals a downed survivor to injured instantly.
There's no killer perk that pulls a survivor into your grasp
2But there is a perk that breaks the killers grasp effectively saving them from a hook/death
There's no killer perk that stuns a survivor for doing there objective
3But there is a lengthy stun perk for survivors to use.
You may be thinking wow a killer with a loadout of perks that does that ? No way would they loose running those. Gg ez 4k evry ddayy.
But a single survivor perk does all that ?
Nah its fine.
And you know something ?
It would be... if only the Obsession had it.
Or if it didn't work tons of synergy with almost every other meta perk.
Like imagine if surge pop and ruin all worked together? Picture every gen always regressing and then every down they all explode for 8% and every hook they reset 25% or...
wowza worse imagine if they combined. Like pop was the next gen you damage looses 25 and then you hit a surge and blow 3 gens with a pop power
But DH BT DS Adrenaline yeah those can all work together...
You can dodge a clear hit with DH save on the cooldown and BT a survivor off the hook for clear hit number two ignored then even if you down this guy you can't get him anyway because ds will just let him escape. Adrenaline pops and everyone jumps up or fully heals and runs for the gates...
From killer mains across the board its not these perks that are so powerful its that killer perks are so weak and survivor perks work so well together to be collectively nasty when entire groups use them. A 4 squad means 4 ds stuns (20 seconds of 3 survivors each doing gens is an entire gen) 4 adrenaline is 4 slugs getting up or 4 people fully healed with gates ready to open. 4 DH is at least 4 clear hits avoided if not 4 loops restarted that's enough for gens to pop.
That's my thinking on it
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There are two main reasons.
- It erases something the killer actually did with something that took zero effort on the survivor's part. When you get beat by a Dead Hard, you tip the cap. When DS or BT goes off it's just cheese. It's a "lobby outplay" that in many cases mean the survivors get away scot free for doing... nothing.
- It punishes the killer for poor survivor decision-making. I understand that these are intended (hopefully) to cut down on camping and tunneling, but the vast majority of times I see them as a killer they're just used as free bullet-proof shields to make unsafe hook saves. More often than not my hooks are literally swarmed with survivors 2 sec after they're up there, whether I'm even still in view or if I've just barely turned a corner. That should be a huge survivor misplay, but these perks make it virtually consequence free.
It's less that there's no counterplay and more that there's no original play. The game just decides that survivors get free passes to make terrible mistakes and killers either lose chases/hooks/kills despite earning them through gameplay, or they have to go around their elbow to get to their ass to always play around something that takes no input, skill, or strategy from the survivor.
There are other ways to address camping/tunneling/slugging than these perks, which actually serve to encourage the behavior more than discourage. I'm much more likely to go after the farmed survivor early in a match, for example, to hopefully blow the DS before it matters. I'd rather attack the farming survivor (since with BT it's probably two hits to down either of them), but the game pushes me the other way. The easiest way to deal with aggressive unsafe unhooks? Stay close to the hook, so you can get the first hit on the unhook as the animation starts, giving you the 2nd just as it ends, and trade hooks. Camp, in other words. I'd rather be roaming the map looking to hunt survivors, but 9 times out of 10 I know there's at least one who probably won't even wait until they can't see me to attempt the unhook.
And why wouldn't they, when the game holds their hand and protects them so efficiently?
All you'd have to do is replace these protection and take-backsie perks and just make the entity swallow survivors after a (somewhat lengthened, given current gen repair speeds) hook cycle and deposit them, injured but free and alive, at a spawn location of their choice. Survivors can unhook early if they want. Make a disgusting pod shoot up and grab em and transport em through the upside-down or whatever. Remove the idea of a "death hook" and just give each survivor two hooks, and on their last spawn they're permanently "broken" and cannot heal, and let the killer mori as a base mechanic when they're downed for the last time. Three strikes and you're out. No more tunneling, no more camping, no more slugging, and no more annoying survivor "oopsie nevermind" perks.
If your teammates farm you, it should be on them, not the killer, to shoulder the responsibility for the consequences.
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Game breaking no, but survivors love second chance perks though but also seem to despise noed for being a second chance perk. I just find it ironic.
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For me, I personally don't have much against DS, or BT, etc in general, save for one surprisingly common situation that leaves killers with 0 options to secure the kill: The No-win Endgame Scenario.
Here's the (common) Scenario: Hook a survivor, Last gen pops and gates are powered, Survivor gets unhooked and runs for the gate, Killer downs hooked survivor less than half the map away from the gate... what can he/she do to prevent escape?
- Pick them up? Eat the DS for 5 second stun, Survivor t-bags before leaving
- Let other survivors heal them while trying to down one of them? Survivor gets up, runs out the gate anyway, teammates also run out the gate as soon as they are struck once.
- Try to wait out the DS and pick them up? They typically have roughly 40 seconds of DS left, you can't body block a crawling survivor, and if you are near the gate they'll just crawl out. The Best you can do is pick them up right before they escape and hope the timer for DS ran out.
The same thing applies to BT, which is commonly paired with DS to absolutely ensure escape for an unhooked survivor. What's worse is that unless you are completely on the other side of the map from the exit gates when you hook the survivor, and if instead you go after the healthy rescuer, both survivors will escape. Hit a healthy survivor that is half the map or less away from the gate = escape, Hit the unhooked survivor while they have BT = escape. The only scenario where you can gain the upper hand during the endgame against perks like these is if you have NOED equipped, or are using an instant down killer/similar instant down tech, Otherwise, they are going to escape, and there is NOTHING you can do about it.
Your best strategy as a killer to avoid this "no-win endgame scenario" is to eat the DS early in the game, but doing that loses you momentum which allows the survivors more time to finish the gens. True it will put a stop the the no-win scenario, but it'll also speed up the endgame dramatically. Other than that, slugging them for a minute, or downing and hooking them after you know DS is no longer active are all you can do.
I swear, if survivors had "Blessed Objects" scattered around the map like the killers Totems, and like NOED/Hex perks, they allowed DS, BT, Unbreakable, Soul Guard etc, to activate/stay active, killers wouldn't hesitate to seek out and smash every one of them, despite how time consuming doing that may be.
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The best way for you to understand is probably by doing the opposite, play without them. Don't use Adrenaline, DH, BT, DS, Unbreakable for any matches for a long period of time.
Then start counting all the times where "If I had (perk), I would have lived/wasted more of the killers time" then think of it like that for 4 survivors and the momentum loss it can cause for the killer or the snowball it can cause in the survivors favor.
Anyway, that's atleast one way I tried to think of to answer OP's question. Not that I'm against the perks, I play both sides but I enjoy killer more.
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Ds robs the killer of any end game plays
Bt removes the risk of hook bombing most of the time
Unbreakable wouldnt be too bad however paired with soul guard or ds it's an extreme game changer and a garunteed extra life no matter what the survivor does, no counter play at that point
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Ds-This perk can change the course of the match depending on the situation. If there are more than 3 gens left, yeah i’ll eat it so they don’t have later but it allows survivors to do what ever they want in the killer face and they know they’ll be up a running no matter what
Bt-Isn’t really that game breaking, if it’s in the endgame then it can be since from experience that’s the only time people get to actually use the perk
unbreakable-if you have all 4 survivors slugged but one of them gets off the ground with unbreakable, you basically have to win the game AGAIN as had that survivor not had unbreakable things would’ve gone much differently and the match would’ve ended much sooner
Dead hard-It has the potential to extend chases by a very long time if used correctly. Most people think it’s to dodge hits but it meant to be used for covering up lost distance. Making to a pallet/window vault is what it’s meant and when this is done correctly can extend chases by very large amounts of time
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did you know if you time it perfectly, you can stack the boost of SB and Adrenaline?
But i think adrenaline is fine since you can only use it once a match.
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Quite honestly the hate stems from SWF. Every problem with survivors comes from them...the toxic groups filled with people who rely heavily on these perks throughout the games they play. That’s why you’d commonly see 3 DS’s in one game, coupled with Unbreakable. And if the builds look similar, they’re likely “that” SWF group.
The only times I would ever have DS and Unbreakable at the same time are when I’m having an extremely bad day with getting slugged off hook just to get picked up about...oh...idk...60 seconds later! Even if I don’t have DS. And teammates could be being a bit selfish and not caring.
And I don’t whip out Borrowed unless it’s been a lot of hard-patrolling going on. Like legitimately not leaving the hook at 4 gens. But I understand why killers hate it when it’s used at end-game because unless the killer has STBFL they’re not gonna have time to punish the rescuer since the person with BT is gonna be body-blocking (if smart).
So these perks are good for solo play, but once they tie in with SWF, they become another monster for many people who have the “play to win” attitude.
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It's not so much how game changing they are on their own. It's how game changing they are relative to the use conditions. That's just the nature of survivor gameplay.
Dead Hard against Nurse can be absolutely devastating and extremely frustrating because a survivor presses E relative to what the Nurse player is doing.
It's an asymmetrical game, so obviously each role is different from a mechanical perspective. But I feel like a lot of frustration from killer players stems from the fact that survivors get a whole lot of reward from not a lot of input on many of the meta perks.
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They're not gamebreaking on their own, but when multiple survivors run all those perks at the same time it's usually a GG from the start. The counter to DS is "oh just slug the person" but then they have Unbreakable to counter the slugging, which is countered by not slugging, which is when you'll get hit by DS, usually when you didn't even tunnel that survivor in the first place... The power of the combination of these two perks is absolutely stupid. They're fine on their own, and they can be fun ways to shift the pace of a match, but when you use them together it's uncounterable, and you have to worry about 4 survivors having this invincibility for up to 2 minutes each during the match.
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DS? Usually used by those who do not know how to play (and it can be easy to hunt it again, but in the endgame it is very op).
BT?, If you see that he approaches you after being off the hook or does not run, do not hit him, start counting to 15.
Unbreakable ?, There if it is pure luck.
There is also the adrenaline trick, when the 5 gens are repaired and you have someone on your shoulders, let go and immediately throw the blow at him. Adrenaline is a very common benefit, this almost always works (this is very satisfying 👀 ).
I would tell you not to take it seriously, it is a game ... but if you want to reaffirm your authority as a killer you can become main of the spirit/nurse/billy/huntress (killers who don't depend so much on the mistakes of the survs)
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It's when you play against some very good but toxic SWF teams that they become a real pain in the ass. And as someone say I can hook another guy and still get DSed so 60 seconds is too long.
That said as solo survivor I use these perks myself and I don't complain when they work to my advantage, but I do understand the killers frustration in some situations. I felt it myself many times playing killer.
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