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Why not show actual percentages instead of Tremendously, Moderately, etc.?
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And just to come back to where I started:
only issue is that people don't understand things
That's why I started with user interface design in general, which has to assume that people do it wrong, to catch the possible mistakes by design. Exactly what you say: people don't understand things. And I repeat myself again on this initial statement: design to allow people do mistakes and just say "all your fault, although we could have done it simpler" is the wrong approach. This is a key rule in user interface design. Make it DAU proof (not sure what the english word is, DAU in german means something like "dumbest assumed user")
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Using these vague words can also be extremely misleading. My favorite example is The Pig's Workshop Grease vs. John's Medical File.
Workshop Grease says it slightly increases Skill Check Trigger odds for Jigsaw Boxes. Now what does this actually mean in terms of numbers? +1%. If the Pig is not using any add-ons to increase the time it takes to search boxes, specifically Bag/Crate of Gears, the survivors will only see a maximum of 3-4 Skill Checks. The Skill Checks are already appearing as fast as they possibly can because Jigsaw Boxes have an absurdly high 80% trigger chance. Workshop Grease literally only adds 1% on top of this, making it 81%. This isn't even remotely close to """""""""slightly"""""""""", it is actually worthless.
John's Medical File slightly reduces Charge time of the Ambush Attack. This is going to be something useless like -1%, isn't it? 50%. The default charge time is 1 second, and this brings it down to 0.5 seconds. Because the Pig's Ambush Attack gives an audible warning, this means that survivors have half the time to run to a safe location. This also gives survivors less time to react if you do not play the Pig stealthily and instead prefer to use her Ambush Attack at unsafe pallets. This add-on also has some niche uses, such as making it easier to preserve stacks of Save the Best for Last.
Because both of them use the exact same word (slightly) and are both the same rarity, new players assume they are both equal in strength and usefulness. I still see new Pig's using Workshop Grease and Razor Wires (+2% btw), even though these are both effectively useless.
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Another case of numbers that confuse you. The video tape also give 50% reduced charge time. Stacking them neither reduces it to 0 nor to 0.25 seconds, so it does not work the way you expect either by knowing the numbers. (Btw just tested it to make sure I'm not wrong. Charge time without addons is ~0,875s with the yellow addon ~0,575 with both addons ~0,5)
You say that "slightly" is misleading. Actually it is not misleading, the validation you give is based on the numbers, that you don't have by the wording. You got the numbers and after that you start evaluating if the wording matches your expectations. Just having the wording would give you an idea of what happens, having the numbers starts the confusion, expectation and everything else. Good example.
We can argue if slightly is not the correct word for this addon as the change is quite remarkable. My position regarding wording vs numbers is still unchanged.
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Btw I think "still using Workshop Grease" is more a thing because you don't see how many skillchecks survivors get. You have absolutely no feedback on the performance of addons like this, you have to see it from survivor side. Not a reason of wording. I would not use these addons because skillchecks are easy, not because any numbers that disappoint me.
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can you like, just edit your comment instead of making a new one? this is kind of annoying.
What I say is that numbers can be misleading, using the same 4 words over and over again for several different mechanincs aren't.
using the same word to describe different things means the word loses it's meaning and is less reliable as a result. Also, numbers can't be misleading by definition. the wording around them is the only misleading thing that can occur.
We can discuss what gives you more value, depending on comprehension
no no no. comprehension is not necessary. numbers always give more value. wether you properly understand it or not.
but there is nothing to discuss that numbers without background can be misleading. This is and was my point the entire time. Glad u got that now.
and again, numbers can't be misleading, they are exact. in fact, math is the only trully exact science we have.
no matter what, a 10 means and is a 10.
You sound like the kind of people that thinks the govement should hide all the information from people because the people might missinterpret it... that's not a good philosophy
That's why I started with user interface design in general, which has to assume that people do it wrong, to catch the possible mistakes by design. Exactly what you say: people don't understand things. And I repeat myself again on this initial statement: design to allow people do mistakes and just say "all your fault, although we could have done it simpler" is the wrong approach. This is a key rule in user interface design. Make it DAU proof (not sure what the english word is, DAU in german means something like "dumbest assumed user")
mate... this isn't an interface. this is item descriptions.
you know? the thing that usually has "+15 damage" written on it in a distinct color? so people can take a quick look and know exactly what it does? and compare to what they already have?
I shouldn't have to check a wiki to properly understand what an item does. specially in a game like dbd where I can take my time reading it while I wait for a match.
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I'm tired of arguing to be honest, I think there were enough examples and confused comments from others regarding numbers, so I don't know on which base you still try to defend it.
Also, numbers can't be misleading by definition... a 10 means and is a 10.
Not the numbers, the interpretation. I said that already. You can expect everyone to be free of faults, that doesn't make them free of faults. I said often enough that numbers CAN be misleading, depending on the context and the individual, and that you need more than the pure number for it to be precise. 10% increased recovery speed is not the same like 10% reduced stun duration. 10% increased chance of a skillcheck can mean raising it from 10% to 11% or from 10% to 20%. Context. A percentage has no unit, it describes a relation. You need to know what it refers to.
That also relates to your second and third line. Might be that numbers are more precise, but IT DEPENDS ON THE READER! We had an example already where 1% seems like nothing but can be way more than you expect. No matter how perfect the numbers are, the reason to use words instead is to avoid misunderstanding and keep it simple! I never said words are more precise than numbers, I KNOW they are less precise. I just said words are easier to understand and prevent you from getting false expectations, when you don't have the full context. Addons and perks describe their effect in many cases in a single line. This is not possible if you use numbers, you need the full context. Base duration, calculation, how and when things stack and in which order. Bringing me to:
"+15 damage" ... and compare to what they already have
This is what I also repeated MULTIPLE TIMES. We don't have it in DBD! Numbers make sense when you get all the base values. Adding +15 damage instead of "slightly more damage" makes sense when you see how much damage you do. Having a single line "slightly better" is hard to misunderstand, you get what the addon should do. Percentages and numbers push you into more detail without having the detail. As I said, we had enough samples, theoretically and by responses in this thread, that numbers CAN lead to expectations based on wrong assumptions. Having false expectations from "slightly better" is pretty difficult.
mate... this isn't an interface. this is item descriptions.
The whole game is a huge interface XD but ok... and this is an example. To, like, get the same issue from a different angle. If you can't transfer the meaning from one example to another... well, I guess I just stop arguing.
And we are not talking about politics here, we are talking about a game... don't know if you want the source code or what. This is not hiding information for disguise, this is, as I ALSO already said, keeping it straight for the sake of simplicity. No conspiracies here, I swear... AAAAAND again: I personally would prefer clear numbers. I'm just arguing why it is (not the worst) design decision to keep it simple!
Btw while you take your time reading some information when sitting in your next lobby... regarding item efficiency: please give me a list of which perk levels of Botany Knowledge, Streetwise and / or Selfcare would be necessary to get 2,3,4 heals out of any medkit in combination with any charge addon, so you can optimize your medkit/addon combos. Do me the favor and try it. Just pick one single character you have with at least 2 of these perks to get a complete list of what you might be able to combine for best efficiency and most healing usages of your medkits. I give you a kickstart. Combining Botany 3 and Streetwise 2 uses 10,46 charges per heal... Just a short prediction: you need some pieces of paper and will not be finished with it after waiting for the first game. Or the second, or third. And this is a scenario about perks that actually give you the numbers. If this is the detail you want and expect everyone to handle and deal with, let me know how long it takes you to get any value out of it, that is better than knowing about "moderatly higher efficiency".
May I repeat ALL I have said multiple times now to get to the core of what I try to say for 2 pages now? And when you want to respond again, PLEASE make sure that every criticism you bring up CLEARLY shows how my previous points are not going in line with the following points (because ALL I want to say, and ALL I tried to point at, is summarized with the below):
- Numbers ARE more precise than words
- Usage of words instead of numbers reduces the complexity
- Usage of numbers needs more context to be able to correctly understand the effect
- Usage of numbers without context has a WAY higher chance of being misunderstood
- Even the full context of numbers will have a decent amount of players misunderstanding them, because people are not perfect
- People not being perfect is a valid reason to say "let's keep it simple". Keeping it simple by giving less information, to prevent misunderstandings and unnecessary complex input
(btw in a game that has 152 perks, 60 survivor items/addons and 400 killer addons related to 20 killer powers each with a unique mechanic)
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That would actually be cool, seconds off the action displayed for time based perks/add-ons and other such things to correspond with other perks/add-ons.
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No.
If the Pig isn't using Crate of Gears or Bag of Gears, the maximum possible amount of Skill Checks you can have while using a Jigsaw Box is 3-4.
Because the Skill Checks are already happening as often as they possibly can, Workshop Grease and Razor Wires actually add nothing.
This has absolutely nothing to do with "feedback" or "expectation" or whatever else your trying to peddle.
And this part about having to test add-ons? And even how I got some numbers wrong?
This wouldn't have happened if they just had numbers in the descriptions.
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Nooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If they change some text in every addon of every survivor/killer it would break the game! Please remember how are the devs with the patches!
Fix one thing, make trouble on 9!
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Not the numbers, the interpretation. I said that already. You can expect everyone to be free of faults, that doesn't make them free of faults. I said often enough that numbers CAN be misleading, depending on the context and the individual, and that you need more than the pure number for it to be precise. 10% increased recovery speed is not the same like 10% reduced stun duration. 10% increased chance of a skillcheck can mean raising it from 10% to 11% or from 10% to 20%. Context. A percentage has no unit, it describes a relation. You need to know what it refers to.
That also relates to your second and third line. Might be that numbers are more precise, but IT DEPENDS ON THE READER! We had an example already where 1% seems like nothing but can be way more than you expect. No matter how perfect the numbers are, the reason to use words instead is to avoid misunderstanding and keep it simple! I never said words are more precise than numbers, I KNOW they are less precise. I just said words are easier to understand and prevent you from getting false expectations, when you don't have the full context. Addons and perks describe their effect in many cases in a single line. This is not possible if you use numbers, you need the full context. Base duration, calculation, how and when things stack and in which order. Bringing me to:
so you agree... interpreting what's written is what confuses people and not the numbers.
so can you stop with the "numbers can be misleading" thing? they can't.
I already showed you how to write increases in % in a gramatically correct way, go read my previous post and pay attention.
let me try to say this in a different way.
if I tell you my beagle had 3 puppies, and you come visit expecting the puppies to be dalmatians. is it my fault you didn't understand what I said? Is it not on you for expecting something different than what I said?
because that's what you're saying. just speed and time vs beagles and dalmatians.
and just to close this part of
Might be that numbers are more precise, but IT DEPENDS ON THE READER!
no. the precision of the number does not depend on the reader. The number means exactly the same independant of the reader.
This is what I also repeated MULTIPLE TIMES. We don't have it in DBD! Numbers make sense when you get all the base values. Adding +15 damage instead of "slightly more damage" makes sense when you see how much damage you do. Having a single line "slightly better" is hard to misunderstand, you get what the addon should do. Percentages and numbers push you into more detail without having the detail. As I said, we had enough samples, theoretically and by responses in this thread, that numbers CAN lead to expectations based on wrong assumptions. Having false expectations from "slightly better" is pretty difficult.
you do know the +15 was just an example right? You know I can easily go pick an item description from diablo or team fortress 2 or DnD and they will have a lot more numbers and you'll still know exactly what they do...right? or a yugioh/magic card?
it was just an easy example to give, don't build an entire foundation of "simple things is fine, but complex number would not work" over quick sand
Percentages and numbers push you into more detail without having the detail.
gonna assume you mistyped something here... otherwise this makes no sense.
Having false expectations from "slightly better" is pretty difficult.
au contraire. having proper expectations is the harder part. Hope I don't have to bring examples of how wide of a meaning "slightly better" can have in dbd.
The whole game is a huge interface XD but ok... and this is an example. To, like, get the same issue from a different angle. If you can't transfer the meaning from one example to another... well, I guess I just stop arguing.
"ThE EnTiRe GaMe Is An InTeRfAcE So ThErE!"
I'm obviously telling you what the better comparison would be, given the content... but no... go ahead and act pretensious and ignore what I said since you can't actually argue against it.
seriously... grow up.
And we are not talking about politics here, we are talking about a game... don't know if you want the source code or what. This is not hiding information for disguise, this is, as I ALSO already said, keeping it straight for the sake of simplicity. No conspiracies here, I swear... AAAAAND again: I personally would prefer clear numbers. I'm just arguing why it is (not the worst) design decision to keep it simple!
politics was an allegory, I'm not actually discussing politics.
I obviously want the items to have a description that exactly what they do.
I didn't say it was for disguise, I said "...hide all the information from people because the people might missinterpret it."
and I'm arguing why it would be better with numbers... why are we going over obvious things here?
Btw while you take your time reading some information when sitting in your next lobby... regarding item efficiency: please give me a list of which perk levels of Botany Knowledge, Streetwise and / or Selfcare would be necessary to get 2,3,4 heals out of any medkit in combination with any charge addon, so you can optimize your medkit/addon combos. Do me the favor and try it. Just pick one single character you have with at least 2 of these perks to get a complete list of what you might be able to combine for best efficiency and most healing usages of your medkits. I give you a kickstart. Combining Botany 3 and Streetwise 2 uses 10,46 charges per heal... Just a short prediction: you need some pieces of paper and will not be finished with it after waiting for the first game. Or the second, or third. And this is a scenario about perks that actually give you the numbers. If this is the detail you want and expect everyone to handle and deal with, let me know how long it takes you to get any value out of it, that is better than knowing about "moderatly higher efficiency".
I don't see how any of this makes any points in your favor. the fact you can make these calculations just goes to show how much better having percentages is. You can know exactly which is the better combo to use.
if it was all percentages... you would have no idea.
the thing I think you're not getting, is that having the values doesn't mean you have to care.
for example, there's a f* ton of lore in the items on dark souls. does that mean every person stops and reads all of them to piece together the lore? no.
same would apply here. people would go "this improves that, and so does that. Ok, gonna use them together". But if the person does want to figure out the dark souls lore or how things interact in the most advantageous way on dbd, they have the tools to do it.
May I repeat ALL I have said multiple times now to get to the core of what I try to say for 2 pages now? And when you want to respond again, PLEASE make sure that every criticism you bring up CLEARLY shows how my previous points are not going in line with the following points (because ALL I want to say, and ALL I tried to point at, is summarized with the below):
-Numbers ARE more precise than words
-Usage of words instead of numbers reduces the complexity
-Usage of numbers needs more context to be able to correctly understand the effect
-Usage of numbers without context has a WAY higher chance of being misunderstood
-Even the full context of numbers will have a decent amount of players misunderstanding them, because people are not perfect
-People not being perfect is a valid reason to say "let's keep it simple". Keeping it simple by giving less information, to prevent misunderstandings and unnecessary complex input
(btw in a game that has 152 perks, 60 survivor items/addons and 400 killer addons related to 20 killer powers each with a unique mechanic)
- ok
- nope. it just removes understanding.
- like I showed before, not really
- random words without context and random number without context are equally useless (or do you honestly think the current descriptions don't have any context? It wouldn't require more for numbers)
- nope. the part that is misunderstood in grammar. not the numbers
- the words right now also have people misunderstanding them
- it is a valid reason. But it's a valid reason to get to a worse result.
- (so?) Diablo II has almost 400 unique itens, 7 classes each with 3 pages of spells and abilities along with 5 different types of companions each with their own skill set plus levelling up mechanics and consumables. and they have everything properly written down. League of legands has way too many characters, each with their own unique 4 abilities that interact in different ways + what feels like a billion itens on the shop. Kinda of the same for Dota 2. Fighting games literally have frame data on the game for every single possible action you can take, along with hitboxes and combo lists.
you seriously think you have a point on the last one there? I can go on.
this part used to be on the top, but I actually want you to read the rest first, because those are actual answers and this is a rant. so you might have stopped reading. so here we go.
I'm tired of arguing to be honest, I think there were enough examples and confused comments from others regarding numbers, so I don't know on which base you still try to defend it.
ok, let's just stop this right now
1 - I never said no one would get confused. people will always get confused with anything
2 - Do you know what anecdotal evidence is?
3 - You know that for each person that got confused by numbers I can easily find another person that got confused by the wording right?
4 - Do you know I don't do it because it would be as pointless as you bringing up people that got confused by numbers? (which aren't even confused by the numbers, it's all grammar)
5 - You know saying "numbers will always give more information than vague descriptions" isn't countered by "this person thinks numbers are confusing" right?
so... DROP IT.
You never had a base for this one, you don't have a base for this one and you'll never have a base for this one. Learn, logic.
this one sentence got me so angry I literally stopped myself from replying yesterday with link to all posts of people asking ######### the addons actually do... so just drop this stupid point you're trying to make with "ThEsE PeOpLe GoT CoNfUsEd". it's not relevant in the slightest.
you bring this ######### up again, you can talk alone.
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