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People who play killer what are your opinion on "2nd chance perks"?
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Meh, they're ok
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As long as they dont get rude or abuse it, i dont have a problem with it.
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i with you there 2nd chances perks i was disagree with someone i copypaste what they said < what i was saying
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I play Killer almost exclusively and I honestly have no problem most of the time. I mean, killers also have OP combos for perks and add ons. Also nothing infuriates me more then playing survivor and getting deleted from a game.
DS is fine. It's 5 seconds. Compare this to the added time it takes to heal with sloppy butcher. DH is fine. You can and should bait it out. Especially if you saw them do it before. If they deadhard and I wiff it, then that's a good play on thier part.
Exhaustion perks are all fine. They only get one and make the match much more interesting and challenging. It forces tyou to decided whether or not commiting to chases or protecting gens are more important.
The only perk I really had a problem with was old mettle of man. Still, since the nerf it's basically useless now.
Sure, Killers have to emphasize time management significantly more the survivors. But we have so much more at our disposal to affect gameplay. I genuinly believe that for the most part killers determine how the game goes. Sometimes a team just works together really well, I feel like that affects gameplay more then the perks do.
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You want a killers opinion on 2nd chance perks? Did you miss the other 50 threads on the subject this week? This forum has a heavy killer bias so they complain about such things non stop. Next start a thread asking for killer opinions on SWFs. Then ask what they think about keys.
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I have just had an idea, probably one that divides the community. How about a hex perk that activates like noed that activates and disables survivor perks once end game collapse begins. This would not include perks like adrenaline or hope since they activate immediately on the final gen completed. All other perks, ds, bt, unbreakable, soul guard and the rest deactivate until the hex is broken.
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Oh, got ya!!
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How is DH not a second chance? If I manage to land a hatchet on a survivor and they DH it, how in the world that is not a second chance.
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Cause it's a delay
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Yes dodging hatchets with dead hard is just skill. End of conversation.
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what i hate about second chance perk is when used in combo like this happen to me i down someone after chasing hooking two others but the one i just down i hooked not to long ago right next to locker not think i pick up i get DSed then head on'ed then flashlight blind i was so piss i almost throw my controller.
here combo for you the pick up Dsed pallet stun flashlight blind these combo need to die.
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I agree with you completely it there was a good way to stop tunnling then these perks would not be too big of a problem. Its not fair how the survivor is killed because the killer wants to be a jerk to people.
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Survivor second chance perks punish killers harshly for just playing normally.
Getting a hit on someone and going in for the down? Dead hard is used and instead of ending chase and getting a hook, they chase continues for who knows how much longer. Have a successful snowball, downing multiple survivors? Unbreakable snatches a victory for the killer and can cause them to lose for capitalizing a situation. There's other examples, but the point is that it is incredibly frustrating as a killer to go up against survivors who EACH have multiple second chance perks. Not only frustrating, but also detrimental to the entirety of the match. If they didn't always have so many, the game would at least feel more fair.
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Ds you get hook and go on the nearest gen work on it for a minute even if the killer is near you dont care you cant get hook
Umbreakable you get slug by the killer you pick yourself up by yourself you run this with DS and you can do whatever you want after you get hook and the killer cant stop you.
BT you should not be able to unhook someone in the middle of a chase and ask him to take a hit so you can take some distance again
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most are fine on their own but the small pp build is anything that includes ds and unbreakable, this could be easily fixed but meh, dh can be irritating but you could say the same about noed, devour and other killer perks so i think its fair
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I think if done right they could be good, dead hard is the best example of this, requiring both killers and survivors to utilize it properly to not get hit or still get the hit. DS is the worst example of this, basically rewarding survivors with extra chase time for doing nothing special, and invincibility for a minute if you find a locker.
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Killers can just go for the lunge though, no grab and downing the survivor at least applies some pressure and gets at least one off of gens. If survivors do this though I normally just eat the ds,unless it is their last hook. At least they don't have it anymore.
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DS trancends its purpose and needs another rework.
Taking Adrenaline is a risk.
BT is fine. Dont tunnel and BT wont be an issue.
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I play mostly Demogorgon, but also a bit of Trapper/Wraith/Myers.
They are a bit annoying sometimes but not really that big of a deal. Dead Hard shouldn't ever work more than once to avoid a hit and even then it is easy to play around. The only annoying thing is DH for distance.
I get why people dislike Decisive Strike but unless you plan on tunneling it is not a big deal. I guess it let's people get away sometimes late game when gates are open and you have no choice to pick up and eat it but then again, killers have quite a few annoying "because I equipped the perk" perks.
Unbreakable and BT are perfectly fine as is IMO.
I should also say that I am a killer that always "plays fair" as I know how ######### it is to get camped/tunneled. I don't camp/tunnel/mori in any of my games. I don't get angry if people tbag or use a flashlight. WEIRD RIGHT? When I lose a game I think "what could I have done better?" Instead of blaming surviviors/swf being op.
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Usually its I can't wait to see how much this person complains at the end of the game because 50% of the time if they run second chance perks they complain up a storm
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I don't mind 2nd chance perks if they are not combined, like DS/unbreakable, if it's one or the other I'm good but using both is too much.
I don't think BT is as annoying, I just hate when you have BT and intentionally body block me, then I wait out the 15 and down you.
Think of something like this, you are playing fair then just to someone to ignore all the things the killer has to do in order to give a fair match, I just think it's too much
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The only issue I have is DS users jumping in a locker or getting on a gen. There should NEVER be a situation in which the survivor is 100% safe
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They suck. Not on their own and not in the hands of more casual players, but against anyone who takes it too seriously or coordinated groups it sucks. They all suck, BT, DS, Unbreakable.
The try hards will make anything toxic. Anything.
I don't know how you'd balance them and I'm sure even if anyone put out a suggestion they'd get dogpiled by all the trolls that populate this community.
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When I play survivor, I play around the idea that the killer might have bbq, bloodwarden, noed, or discordance. These are perks that affect how the current match is played greatly and require some preemptive thought to combat and deductive reasoning to establish. They require the survivors to play a certain way to counteract them while showing no indication that they are in play other than interpreting the killer's play style.
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When playing killer, I do the same for DS, BT, Unbreakable, Adrenaline, and Dead-hard. If you play around them, they completely lose their effectiveness and become empty perks. Extremely high risk and high reward, but that implies you give them the option to use them.
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I play survivor and killer 50/50. I am not a good survivor (although red rank but that doesnt mean anything), but I'm able to differentiate between my own lack of skill and flaws in game design. A good survivor squad WILL outplay an equally good killer due to the game design. I don't see a problem with perks being meta, because every single competitive game will always have a meta. That's unavoidable. But considering the number of perks that are barely ever used on both ends, clearly some are too strong and some are too weak. My ideas are the following, however I wouldn't want them all to be implemented, but a few.
DS: only activates if killer is in a certain range of the hook (not TR due to some killers not having a TR / perks disabling it) ... that way the perk would do what it is supposed to do, protect the survivor from being completely camped
BT: it's fine as it is, since it is counterable (hitting the unhooker, and/or bringing Make your choice)
Adrenaline: leave insta heal but remove increased speed - it would still be a strong perk, giving the survivor one last chance, but making it more possible for the killer to do sth about it
Unbreakable: it's fine as it is imo
DH: my personal hate perk. DS will only work once, BT is counterable, Adrenaline only works due to defined trigger. But DH can be used way too often, giving the survivor more and more chances to erase the mistakes they make during chases. Therefore either...
- a counter (can only be used x times)
- a longer cool down (exhaustion times increases)
or (my favorite)
- can only be reactivated once a certain other interaction such as "working on a gen for x time" is completed
Another idea to slow down the game (which it needs, we all know that) and to limit speed perks a little more would be to make exhaustion affect gen repair speed in general.
However, I've read a lovely idea in this forum about a perk lock. If a group queues together, they can pick every perk once. Doesn't apply to solo queue. That way, the game would become so much more exciting and interesting, with more variety. Obviously many perks that are almost never used would need a buff then first, to make them actually playable. But I doubt that this will ever come, due to too much whining about limitation. I personally however like to play around and try out new things, and it would require way more teamplay to make the best of a creative group build.
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Noed is easily counterable (my group of 3 does it all the time, and we're very bad survivors who can't loop and juke), Adrenaline is not. If a squad dies to noed, they haven't played well enough. Not a thing to do about Adrenaline though (nothing I'm aware of, at least).
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It's weird that far less people complain about sprint burst making it so a survivor escaped a hit at the beginning of a chase than they do about dead head doing the same during chase.
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Make all second chance perks, both Killer and Survivor as good as MoM and the game will be fairly balanced but boring as hell. I'ts a fine balance I guess.
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They are part of the game so i simply don't worry about it and learn to work around it. At the end of the day we can say, remove this, nerf that, make this an X,Y,Z condition perk, but while there is still a chance of the other side winning, people will have something to complain about no matter how much stuff is changed/nerfed to someones liking.
And yes, it works both ways for both sides.
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Imo every second chance perk should work like deliverance. You need to fulfill certain activation conditions. That would make it more difficult to stack them.
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Issue with 2sd chance perks like ds unbreakable adrenaline is theres little to no counter play to it yes for adrenaline you could run noed and have satly surivors be mad but noed can be broken before it is lit you have waisted a perk slot for the entire game and got no value. But how do you counter ds unbrealable you cant be re hooked unless you're bad and miss and you cant be slugged because you will stand up and a smart surivor will save it at 99 and get 1 tap and hop on gen or heal then there is 2 on 1 gen 44s their ds is gone and a gen is done its just free gen pressure and if you have adrenaline it encourages you to do last gen while injured to get 5 s of basically invincibility and another hit to you. You're down on struggle get taken off hook bt saves you you go down near gate but you saved ds and unbreakable he cant leave you because you will stand up and he cant pick you up you get out and you leave what dose he do?
I know at the unhook he could of traded but then what someone heals you and you trade. To get ds same out come most likely to escape "varies on killer" and the person you saved is at the gate
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this is to draw an example of a real game
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What could "he" of done there
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A bit annoying but a necessary evil in the current state of the game, sad that they can be abused sometimes.
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But the Devs are trash at the game, they'd probably count thrilling tremors as a slowdown perk.
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You could argue the opposite; killers have been playing how they do because survivors keep running those perks. IMO stacking them is ######### annoying, and I don't go a single game in which there's no one using the classic 4 perks.
At the end of the day, I think BHVR should change *more* perks overall, even if it's just small number tweaks. Just like every other game does in order to keep the meta from getting stale.
Get like 2 dudes to modify the values of say 25% of the perks in the game for every update so we all get to experiment with new combos. What the perks do doesn't have to change at all, just fiddle with the values every now and then.
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You say that like playing against SWFs and/or keys isn't less fun for killers. Of course they don't like those two when they result in less fun.
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Um, please run ruin and corrupt together. That is a recipe for a quickly broken totem.
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Corrupt intervention is such an inferior perk to old ruin is depressing
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Switch killer/survivor here. Play both in the red ranks. Really as a killer I have one issue with second chance perks. Specifically DS, its a fine perk it prevents tunneling to a degree. What bugs me is when survivors with DS think they are invulnerable and just run into your face to bait you to down them and pick them up. Essentially the issue is someone can pretend to have DS without actually running it (I dont see many people doing this i think its only me TBH) The threat of the perk will make the killer not pick you up whether you have it or not.
From a meta game POV this makes the perk far more powerful than the stats it actually has. Of course its not as if there is really a way to fix this, just my issue with the perk. Otherwise I think Second chance perks do a good job of enforcing fun gameplay for both sides.
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Aside from DS which is just way to easy to abuse atm the only problem with second chance perks is the stacking of them and the fact each survivor can have them. These perks feel like they were designed in a 1v1 vacuum not the 1v4 that the game is.
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Out of those DS is definitely the biggest crutch. Who on earth thought 60 second immunity 2x during the game wouldn't be abused? There are scenarios where other survivor with BT saves the survivor 5 seconds after the hooking and then he has BT active for 15 seconds, bodyblocking you so you cannot hit the person who saved him. If you go after the person who got unhooked you will need to deal with the BT, and also the DS. Unbreakable is not that big of a crutch because it's situational, but one unbreakable in the game can turn lose into win if the killer slugs
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Annoying.
Balance-wise each single one is fine on its own but stacking them together is OP.
Imo they need some form of a shared cooldown like Exhaustion but probably longer or even till the end of a trial to make it just a 2nd chance, not 3rd, 4th or so on.
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Just picture it this way.
You're chasing a Dwight through jungle gyms as gens are flying by. You know you have about 30 seconds to down this guy or you'll have to abandon chase and go patrol the gens again. You manage to get the down in time and check for flashlight savers, no one's there. BUT, you remember that he has been hooked recently and you'll get hit by DS, so you leave him slugged. But then, he uses unbreakable to get back up anyway.
Dwight just got away for free. He didn't outplay you; he just slapped on 2 perks that, when combined, mean a free 60-second bubble of invincibility.
Now picture that happening 4 times in a game.
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DS, BT = is fine as long its not endgame.
Unbreakable = fine, its my fault when i get greedy to slug for the 4K
Soul gard = is a bit too strong because you can use it infinetely afaik
Adren = fine as long its not a cordinated SWF group
Iron will = is fine.
Exhaustion perks are fine.
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I don’t mind them that much. I usually try to eat a ds early game if It’s really obvious. It does happen sometimes that I misjudge how much eating it will cost me and it basically settles the game
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DS: in case of being downed again or pulled out from a locker within 60s after being saved from a hook, DS gives u one chance to instantly "wiggle free" and escape from being tunneled
BT: most killers have a 32m range of terror radius. If killer not near the hook, this perk doesnt go off. But anytime killer within 32m of the hook - 16s of protected status - a second chance in final game where doors are opened or almost and killers tactically camp to guarantee a kill, also when killers just camp toxically
Unbreakable: only a second chance when killers try to play 4-down or so, being picked up before having time to get up desactive it, that's right
DH: killers dont know u have it - dodge one attack, a second chance, even after losing one layer of health, as it prevent u from being hit one time, sometimes right before u can reach a pallet or a window. but really of no use if killers know u have it.
Adrenaline: hmm...I really see few people take it, and I dont think it's a "second chance", as a killer allows u get the gate ready will usually take noed, and no noed killers usually finish a game before 5 gens got done.
So DS and BT are really two "second chance" perks, as a double side player I would say. but the left ones are not OP enough to be called so.
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I don't mind them too much, but its just annoying when I'm playing survivor and I feel like I'm not actually outplaying the killer with skill and instead with perks, vice versa with killer when I get outplayed by perks and not skill. I play both sides equally but this is how I'd balance the perks mentioned and my reasons why:
Unbreakable: "The recovery rate is -25% but can still pick yourself up once per trail." The fact that this perks not only robs the killer of momentum and destroys the suggested "counterplay" of DS, but the fact you can recover faster as well? Just 1 well timed Unbreakable can literally be the cause of a Killer losing the game. There should be a cost for having such a powerful effect and the much slower recovery speed would be plenty.
BT: "Once you start an altruistic action, the endurance from the perk deactivates." The fact that someone with endurance can run to a hooked person and there's nothing the killer can do to either person is pretty silly because both people will have that "anti tunneling perk" ready to go(ill be going over this in a bit).
DS: "If you touch a gen, heal someone, get healed to full health, jump into a locker, or start unhooking someone else, the perk will deactivate. However if DS is used, the perk CAN reactivate." Nothing much to say here, I'm just making it an ACTUAL anti tunnel perk. Removing all the abusive utility it has warrants a second use I believe.
OoO: "Only the obsession can see the killers aura." Its hard to balance this perk due to how fundamentally broken it is, but that would be a start.
Dead Hard: "After using the perk, you get 4 seconds of "winded" and cant drop pallets or vault windows." This is the survivors version of NOED with how hand holdy it is. Mess up a loop? Just press E. Got too greedy? Just press E. Want to make it to a pallet you wouldn't normally make it to? Just press E. Dropping this perk made me so much better at looping and honestly I've never looked back.
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I'm surprised off how many players say that BT is there only for prevent camping or tunneling, forgetting that what BT encourages is to unhook in front of the killer a few seconds after the hook, not even giving a chance to leave (sometimes they even run behind you while you are carrying someone).
I would do BT a REAL perk to counter camping, and the best way to do that is by being activated only after a survivor is hooked at least 15 seconds.
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Ok so after looking at this post i created it seems that the problem with these perks have to do with stacking them with others that make it near impossible. Other than that they are annoying but fine to deal with. Did i miss anything?
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