People who play killer what are your opinion on "2nd chance perks"?
Ok i have seen different post on the forum complaining about "2nd chance perks". Im a survivor main but i want to see killers perspective on things. So people who play killer what is your problem with perks like DS, BT Unbreakable ect and how would you change it to make it more balanced for you guys but not ultimately making it a useless perk. I really am willing to listen.
Comments
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There a bit annoying
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make so ds is 30 second and if you touch a gen or another person get unhooked your ds deactivates or if you start healing someone and make it so if your in a chase it the timer wont go down. make deadhard start off with 3 token everytime you use deadhard you lose a token and get exhaustion
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i think most are fine when ran by themselves. The only 2 second chance perks i find to be really stupid and annoying are dead hard (when used for distance) and sprint burst, since theres no counter to either of them and they fix mistakes with the press of a button
obviously though i think its braindead boring to go against a survivor running ds, unbreakable, dh/sb, and bt in one build. this build just rewards the survivor when they're playing like garbage a majority of the time
im not sure how to really change any of them to make them more fun and fair to face, though
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I find dead hard annoying but once I know they have it it's pretty easy to force.
Adrenaline I despise with a burning passion for no real reason. Remove the free health state.
Unbreakable I don't mind. It's strong and can change games but punishes heavily slugging so hooking/caging circumvents this.
Bt I don't mind.
Ds I have no issue with except when combined with Unbreakable. Make it so that when DS is active you cannot recover past 75% of your recovery bar by yourself, problem solved. Ensure though that this trumps Unbreakable/no mither/soul guard.
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I don't think there is a "second chance" perk... so I'll explain
DS: you have to be hooked in the first place... what second chance are you getting?
BT: if killers are away from the hook it won't activate... where's the second chance (side note if I'm running STBFL I'll hit you anyway)
Unbreakable: you lost the chase and have an oppertunity to pick yourself up... Barely a second chance
DH: you lose the first half of a chase to be able to dodge an attack... Not exactly a second chance
Adrenaline: end game perk... What second chance do you get if yer dead before the end game starts?
Anymore "second chance" perks
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I don't mind most. They're annoying, but expected. It gets a bit worse when survivors stack them though.
The only one I find really frustrating is DS, because I haven't really figured out any way to counterplay it. Considering how much other people seem to hate it too, I can only assume there isn't really any counterplay.
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I get how annoying DS and Unbreakable is but the idea of a second chance perk isn't necessarily bad is it? Case in point borrowed time. When someone uses it they are mostly to counter camping and tunneling killer right? At that point the second chance is needed for the survivor because the survivor off the hook can be really powerless against a killer like that. In my opinion its used to counter an unfair and unfun play style
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ds and bt remove the risk of unhooking / getting unhooked
dead hard removes the punishment of making mistakes
To actually punish tunneling, I would reduce ds timer to 10 or maybe 15 seconds after being unhooked and then remove the skillcheck so it's guaranteed if the killer picks you up. To balance BT I would make the speed boost only last 1/4 of the time it is now. To balance dead hard I would remove it from the game completely.
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The Devs should just listen to survivors and make camping and tunneling impossible. Then remove every second chance perk and good it is.
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Personally I think they are all good. DS and Borrowed Time in particular are important perks for this game. Barely ever have a problem with those perks.
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Sometimes they hurt.
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I would like to see perks put into categories and then not let two perks of the same category not be stacked.
Ex; Unbreakable and Decisive would be labeled as a "Second Chance" perk thus not be able to be run together
Same rule would apply to killers as well.
Corrupt intervention and Ruin would be labeled as "Generator Slow Down" so they also couldn't be paired together.
It would force players to look outside the meta and try to discover cool interactions
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They can be annoying, but the game would be omega annoying to play as survivor without them
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DS: you have to be hooked in the first place... what second chance are you getting?< not being hooked 2nd and 3rd time survivors have to be hooked 3 time
BT: if killers are away from the hook it won't activate... where's the second chance (side note if I'm running STBFL I'll hit you anyway)<survivor take other survivor off hook in killers face happens alot to me
Unbreakable: you lost the chase and have an oppertunity to pick yourself up... Barely a second chance>,more 2nd chance when used with other perks
DH: you lose the first half of a chase to be able to dodge an attack... Not exactly a second chance>have not to say about it.
Adrenaline: end game perk... What second chance do you get if yer dead before the end game starts?>same as DH but i run noed sometime kills Adrenaline
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I think a lot of it depends on how you play. They don't bother me too much, but I'm in mid-ranks and don't play in a way that would make them problematic.
Borrowed Time: I generally don't tunnel off hook, as tunneling is the one thing I absolutely loathe running into as Survivor. I do, however, slug off the hook. Either I knock someone down and keep up pressure by forcing someone to pick them up while I go for the unhooker, or they have BT and I keep that one person off gens just a little bit longer by forcing them to mend while I go for the unhooker.
Decisive Strike: Again, I don't tunnel enough to run into Decisive Strike often, and if I do slug off-hook as mentioned above, I don't impede the pickup. I'm still in mid-ranks though so I haven't run into people goading me into it by jumping into lockers. My hope is if I ever do run into that I'm playing the Trapper.
Unbreakable: Aside from the aforementioned off-hook slug and the occasional "someone else is here, too, I should go after them", I usually pick up right away so Unbreakable doesn't enter into things often.
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i have no problem with people running them, i do, however, have a problem with running nothing but them and then t-bagging and clicking like you are a god, cause half of the meta-slaves i've seen couldn't play without their second chances to save their lives
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DS: is only a second chance if used with doors open... anything less is tunneled out
BT: like I said I MYSELF will hit the bt'd survivor... or I'm so far away from the hook that it doesn't matter..... OR if I realize what that survivor's doing I back off and wait
Unbreakable: My point being that you'd need a build around Unbreakable for Unbreakable to be a second chance... Unbreakable by itself isn't a second chance
DH: You dodge one attack at least then downed.... what second chance?
Adrenaline: still an end game perk... Timing is everything
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The problem is how abusable these perks are and how oppressive they are when stacked.
For solo q players, they're great and discourage killers from scummy playstyles.
SWF, however, will use BT to bodyblock for the unhooker, right in front of the killer.
Even if the killer does manage to slug someone with DS, unbreakable guarantees they can get up while everyone else stays glued to gens.
Adrenaline and Dead Hard / Sprint Burst make it safer for these players to stay glued to gens, even while injured.
All combined, this gives the killer an extremely rushed match with no real way to apply pressure. Even slugging, camping, and tunneling won't work.
An ebony mori and a top tier killer is about the only way to balance this matchup, but who honestly wants to play a game where you rush kills or gens in under 5 minutes?
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I have no real issue with them but I thought I’d have a crack at defining the ‘second chance’ nature of the perks.
DS, the second chance comes after the hook, so in the next chase and lasts long enough That you don’t need to be tunneled often to benefit from it when you get found again. 60s is a long time in dbd. The loss of momentum due to a failed ds chase can be crippling to slow map pressure killers. Especially 4 of them.
BT, gets abused by folks unhooking in the killers face and the body blocking for the BT hit. Giving all involved a chance to flee. You went for an unsafe hook made much safer by BT. Giving everyone involved free escape time from what should be a very dangerous situation. It does punish campers so it has its uses. Also deep wounds is really a non threat.
UB yeah you lost and it has little to no use if the killer doesn’t slug. But pair it with DS which the counter is to slug. You now have 60s of both hook and slug immunity. Slug me or pick me up I’m basically safe either way. That combo is the biggest second chance of all.
Adrenalin is the survivor NOED. I lost but I have an ace up my sleeve that can get me out the gate by saving my sorry butt with a free health state, just as I lost but I’ve now activated uber down mode and may get to make up for it with easier hits that deny the tank a hit and run out the gate play.
All are ‘second chances’ that make up for mistakes/bad plays with little to no downside.
The only change I would say is DS could be 30s and be less oppressive when paired with UB.
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I'm glad the devs will never do that. 2 have said they like DS how it is now.
As a killer main. They are fine to me. I dont cry about what survivors use.
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Unbreakable and DS counter each other.... They get unhooked and downed..... They recover (99%) then wait for a pick up... if not then they get up... by then DS timer is gone (maybe) so if they go down again it's a hook for them
DS: 60 seconds is a long time in this game but eating one early isn't bad (more on the survivor confidence then a bad play on the killers part)
BT: again just know when it's happening and know your killer....
Adrenaline: TIMING IS EVERYTHING... for it to be a second chance
Now all of those together is easy to spot.... so it makes it easier to counter
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DS=you stun the killer for 5 seconds and get away giving you second chance because you were gonna be hooked so DS saved you a hook state
BT=injured survivor unhooks teammate and the killer hits the injured survivor but BT gives you a second chance to get away with the speed burst and the effect that it just applies a deep wound instead of a down and hook for the killer.
Unbreakable=You pick yourself up giving yourself a second chance because now you dont get a hook state.You are literally getting a second chance to play again with this perk
DH=dash forward quickly to avoid damage. You literally ignore a hit, giving you a second chance at living
Adrenaline=with that logic i guess noed isn't one either
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They also said they liked how billy was and you see what happened.
You can't really trust the dev's word a lot of the time on balance.
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DS is fine, i just slug and wait it out,
If they have unbreakable, most of the time i let them use it because usually someone will come in for the pick up anyway. If they dont use it, they are saving it for the multi slug play.
These 2 perks are perfectly fine.
The problem lies with adrenaline, borrowed, and NOED. These are the ones that need changes.
In my opinion NOED needs to be removed. As a killer main. Please erase from existence.
Borrowed should be a one use perk.
Adrenaline should not make you healthy off the hook.
My reasons are because if you get to the endgame, survivors should already have the win secured because they earned it. Giving borrowed 1 use prevents them from using it mid game and save it for the collapse hook. Adrenaline will prevent an unhooked survivor from having 3 health states off of a BT rescue.
In other words, i want the killer to earn the sacrifice. And i want survivors to be brave and make hype plays. The end game is the most fun, but these 3 perks are too "check-mate" at the moment.
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They're fine. Slightly annoying and abuse of the perks is frequent but not enough to demand change.
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The only perks I consider second chance are dead hard, unbreakable and decisive strike. Adrenaline and deliverance will reward you for playing well, even if they are a bit too powerful. Dead hard unbreakable and DS reward mistakes.
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The only two perks I find annoying are DS and Dead Hard. The only change they need to make to DS is make it so it deactivates when another survivor is hooked, they could even increase the time on it as long as they made this change. As a killer in high ranks when you have a lot of momentum it makes no sense to be punished for hooking someone you hooked like 2 hooks ago and get 59 second DS'd, most killers in the game thrive on having consistent momentum and losing it can cost them the game. As far as Dead Hard goes, I just don't like people Dead Harding for distance, because there is physically nothing you can do about it, they fall short of a pallet and your about to get a hit, they press E and get 3 more free loops that can spiral into adding another 60 seconds to the chase which is time you can't afford to lose. As far as how they would change it I honestly don't know how they would do it because reducing the distance you lunge forward would make it so that when you actually dodge a hit you can't get anywhere afterwards. That's honestly it in my opinion, BT doesn't bother me because it's easily counter-able, Adrenaline can be annoying when an entire team is running it but most of the time I don't have a problem with it. Unbreakable is completely fine, no complaints there and all the other exhaustion perks are annoying, but balanced.
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I don't have a problem with 2nd chance perks, I have a problem with stacked 2nd chance perks.
For example
I hit a survivor now they have DH available, I chase them down they use DH to correct a mistake or get to another loop to be safe, I chase them again and down them. Now that I've downed them I can hook them, I pick them up and get hit with DS, and now I gotta chase them again. Chase/down the survivor again as the final gen is being completed and boom Adrenaline kicks in and now I gotta chase them.
The problem I have with stacked 2nd chance perks is that majority of the killer roaster has to capitalize on survivor mistakes, but survivors use multiple perks to correct and get themselves out of their mistakes!
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DS: So then tunnel that person out knowing they don't have that perk no more (My mindset)
BT: Focus on the Survivor saving....
Adrenaline: Play normal, TIMING IS EVERYTHING, it's an End game perk... remember it
Unbreakable: One time use... (if paired with DS then think of which perk is worth having the survivor using and plan accordingly)
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Have your actually never read this forum? What more do you need to be informed?
Don't stir up #########.
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why don't you better play assassin? so you will understand better..
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For all of these perks whenever the perk happens to give value that value is in the form of an additional health state, aka: a second chance.
Why a perk gives a second chance doesn't change that it is one, it's not like a perk being balanced or well designed disqualifies it from being a second chance perk.
If we define Second chance perks as perks that increase the Number of hits required to hook a Survivor within a single set of consecutive chases (worded like that because each hit is considered by the game a separate chase) then the following perks are second chance perks/items:
- DS
- BT
- Mettle of Man
- Soul Guard
- Second Wind
- Adrenaline
- Medkit Septic
- Medkit Syringe
- Dead Hard
- Saboteur
- Breakout
- Flashlights
Deliverance is not a second chance perk because the effect is post hook and doesn't restore health states or block hits.
Unbreakable is not a second chance perk because it requires the Survivor to be untouched by the Killer for an extended period of time, making the resulting extra chase not consecutive with the original set of chases. Same reasoning applies to flip flop.
Healing perks in general are not second chance perks for the same reason, a period of not being chased is required to gain the heal.
Of these perks:
- Soul Guard
- Second Wind
- Adrenaline
- Saboteur
- Breakout
- Flashlights
Are all definitely balanced or underpowered, they are still second chances however. Mettle of man is definitely under-powered. Adrenaline in particular is a great baseline for how a second chance perk SHOULD be balanced:
- The perk is telegraphed (enduring doesn't tell the Killer before the hit, while healing does)
- The effect doesn't deny the value of future hits
- The payoff is in response to Survivor success
- The counterplay on the Killers end doesn't require a major playstyle change
- The effect is strong enough to justify it's one time use nature
- The effect is hard to stack with other similar effects
Endurance perks should have an effect that is visible to the Killer prior to them actually being hit
DS should be changed to not just stop Killer momentum in general and be more specialized
The Syringe is probably fine idk. Maybe have it apply the broken effect like Second Wind does as a telegraph? The actual effect itself of a delayed heal is fine tho.
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They need to exist because tunneling is the best strategy and will be used by most killers without them. However, they need to be balanced in a way that shows that the interactions with each other are taken into account and they need to be reasonable in their applications.
For example, DS as a concept is fine for anti-tunneling. On its own the only big issues it has are locker not canceling it. Now when you combine it with Unbreakable then things get much more abusable. Now on top of being able to run to a locker, they can sit on a gen right next to you with no fear. If Killer grabs then it's a DS hit, if killer slugs then DS protects then until unbreakable can proc. It's a guaranteed extra health state no matter what.
BT is largely fine, except when combined with DS. Survivor gets unhooked, has BT, killer is coming, runs face first into Killer and body blocks for savior. Even being put onto the ground here is a good play because the savior is now safe and as described above, DS/Unbreakable combo means they'll be fine as well.
Adrenaline is fine, no problems with it imo. It's a single use perk reward for clearing 5 gens, it has to be earned. At most the only thing that would be fair for toning it down is removing the speed boost if you're already exhausted, but I think that's unnecessary.
Second chance perks are fine on their own, but when stacked together they become way stronger than they're intended to be.
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So you would agree with that same logic for Noed?
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DS, BT - Both fine. Easily avoidable and necessary due to how powerful camp and tunnel can be.
DH, Adrenaline - Literal crutches. These 2 perks alone boost so many survivors, DH for distance can easily add an extra 20 seconds onto a chase. Multiply that by 4 survivors and numerous chases and yeah...
But people here would have you believe that pressing E as you run towards a pallet or window takes skill
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honestly i dont really see a problem, unless its a swf i usually always win
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My issues are how the synergize to counter their counters and how boring it is to face them in every round. Other than put limits on DS I'm not sure what could be done to fix it.
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I have to disagree here, these are indeed all second chances and sometimes cover up bad gameplay.
DS, you lost another chase and then effectively gained and extra hook state by DSing the killer. Who also gets a stun penalty.
BT is down right op when exit gates are open or when you got a survivor in the basement and are starting to gain momentum. It alo protects unsafe unhooks, even going so far as to reward the points for a safe unhook, which they didn't perform
Unbreakable, once again you lose a chase, and now you get to get up and run away, undoing the momentum the killer has build up by slugging you. Plus if on comms your team doesn't even have to stop doing gennys.
DH is really dangerous on good loopers. Getting to that next safe pallet could significantly add to a chase, robbing the killer of the hook and perhaps pop that was needed in that moment.
Adrenaline is a heal at the end of the game and a huge sprint advantage. Once again a perk that can be really strong when on comms and doing those last second adrenaline saves.
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They have their place in the game, the issue is that considering the impact they can have they are:
a) extremely easy to activate
b) have no downside
c) can all be used together and can have some pretty stupid synergies.
Like mettle of man is an odd one out with both a) and b) although it is a "second chance perk". But who would complain about a survivor escaping because they proc MoM? (Okay I'm sure some would but it's more impressive than anything else )
Imo these type of perks should have downsides, limits, or require skill/effort to pull off, something at a higher level than press button to not die, hold button to not die, hit skillcheck to not die, etc etc
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Not all of them are 100% bad and cheese to play against, but the 9/10 meta perks are the way they are and considered good is mainly because of how stupid easy they are to use and how you don't need to earn them when you have to consider just how hard these perks can change the out come of a game. I like to call them "swing perks" rather than 2nd chance perks because it doesn't get survivor mains panties in too much of a bunch. Normally if only one or two survivors have them its not too dramatic of a change, but when 4 people can bring 12 different ways of getting a chance to swing the match in their favor it gets pretty garbage.
Things like ds are pretty bullshit to play against because of how long it lasts and how survivors can deny a slug by hopping inside a locker. By then it doesn't become just a second chance perk, it becomes a tool to exploit and force the matches to be played in ways where it was not intended to or not very fun at all.
Killers have swing perks too like noed, the hex perks, and pop among other things. But the way that killer perks are balanced, killers have to go out of their way to meet requirements to be able to use these perks or have really long cooldowns for these perks to be able to use it again like trail of torment or thrill of the hunt for example.
Judging from the recent chapter I think they've realized that survivors have to work more for some things, this is why perks from Cheryl, Yui and Zarina have cooldowns or interactions from them. Because they don't want to immediately give people all sorts of way to ######### with the match.
I think as a community its important for us to be vocal and ask ourselves if the older meta perks are still fair or fun to use and if its healthy for the game for the perks to swing matches as hard as they do when they take zero skill to use or effort. Essentially a middle finger uno reverse card.
So stacking needs to be looked into and they should get requirements to use or have cooldowns so people can't just get unearned chances.
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i am ok with them by themselves, the problem arises when all 4 survivors run the same 4 "second" chance perks that stack on to each other
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They're annoying when there stacked but at the same time, there so commonly used because of how most killers have been playing recently.
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Individually nothing.
They are the most powerful perks on either side no contest.
If they did not synergize in the most aggressive ways id never care. And if they weren't meta facing 16 of them each game it wouldn't be the nightmare that it is.
As it is now, every chase these super powered heros dash across the map like lighting, absorb hits like ghosts, get up from death when they please and stop you from picking them up.
And the bold power they get from this is astounding. They openly mock and tease killers at every turn because they have so much control over the match and can delete mistakes with these second chance undo buttons. Its unreal how little the immortal killing monster can do about any of this. But hey I still belive this to be a horror game so what do I know
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I don’t mind the perks but if you get a big ego with them and end up being tunneled down don’t come crying in my dms 😂😂😂
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Hate BT, literally rewards unsafe hooking by making yourself safe and also even then if the killer chases you after BT you can eat a hit and run away more to waste time. Shouldnt be the killers terror radius, the killer should be within 8-16 meters of hook for bt to work so its actually anti camp
If DS was actually anti tunnel instead of “I run into the locker and waste the killers time” or “play aggro cause im not in danger” people wouldnt care about ds, unbreakable is only bad when paired with DS.
DH, the mistake eraser.
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They honestly need the second chance perks. Im a killer main and i think they need at least a few. Survivors simply dont have the coordination with solo play to stand a chance if theres one bad apple. I play survivor here and there and definately feel the need for at least borrored time. They only become broken when they synergize with other second chance perks. I feel like perks should be sorted into categories. With survivor you can get 1 second chance, 1 stealth, 1 gen perk and 1 aura perk. Same with killers. That would probably be the closest thing to balance this game can get
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I rather they rid them all in both survivor AND killer sides. The Entity feels too lenient with allowing 2nd chances.
That said. Survivors have it too easy anymore. Having them AND feeding off each other's survivors. What's a Killer to do but to use NOED which survivors hate on... no one's happy
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Low risk, high reward.
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Well i was here already before those were implemented, so maybe i just got used to them slowly being added over the years.
Idk, i guess i can be annoyed if someone pulls off a BT against my Wraith, and i've got a vendetta against Decisive Strike cause being stunned is very anti-fun to me, but i've usually already forgotten about that trial the moment i go back to spend some BP.
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If you want my honest opinion, I think second chance perks are fine. They make each game and each survivor interesting to play against in their own way, even if I get totally wrecked by them.
Dead Hard I actually enjoy fighting against, it's a really solid survivor perk and I really just can't get mad at people who use it well against me. The only unsatisfying thing about it is doing DH solely for distance, which can feel a little irksome sometimes because it shows me that the user isn't confident in their timing and is looking for an easy way to extend a chase. I really can't blame those that use it like this though, it's just something it's built to do well.
Decisive Strike can be interesting before it's even used, because it can be tipped off by the existence of an Obsession and by how an individual or even a team plays. While it's in play, it basically forces a slugging situation unless you're in a good position to eat the strike and or they miss the skill check, which is really funny to figure out in endgame chat. Honestly, I have no problem with it on its lonesome.
Adrenaline is to be expected in most cases, I'm never really surprised if it procs at the last gen and if someone was lucky enough to be in a chase with me while the last gen gives them a free sprint burst and health state, then honestly good for them. They made that tradeoff when they chose it and knew they would be down a perk for basically the rest of the game.
Unbreakable is a mega sad moment when it saves a four man down but eh, what can you do. It's certainly the one I forget about the most, so having it go in a match is a big surprise for me even if it's pretty meta. It mixes things up, I'm not always mad at it.
Stacking 2 or more of these perks, in my opinion, can not only kind of overkill but it indicates to me that the player I'm fighting against is not very confident in their chases, their endgame plays, their teammates, which... it's totally fine to play safe, I just think it's a bit boring for both sides. I think both teams are way more happy if they feel like they earned what they did in their matches, like a David gets a really good DH and baits a hit that practically doubles the length of the chase, I can acknowledge that it was a really nice play and I think both of us can walk away from that feeling like they were either accomplished or aware of what they could have done better. Again I don't want to sound like a jerk in saying it's boring, I don't want to make people believe that running multiple second chance perks makes them a toxic player, I just genuinely believe that generally, you'll only get better at doing risky, but exiting plays by... well... doing risky, but exciting plays. Do what makes you happy, bro. I'm not the fun police.
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