What should be done about Survive with Friends?
SWF is not fair. In NA about 30% of the games I played against during the event were a 3 or 4 man. Playing with my friends feels like easy mode. And playing against an organized group feels unwinnable every time. I don't have fun in a match that lasts 8 minutes without ever being able to put any effective pressure on Generators, and i truly believe that most players who have play extensively at a high rank killer status would agree with me. A good solution I think is to boost blood points gained for every person in a SWF, and possibly make SWF have a much different effect on a players rank (survivor and killer). But overall the game really should acknowledge in some way that when you play against SWF you truly are playing the game on ultra hard mode.
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SWF is an elephant in the room of thid game that maybe is the thing that makes killers quit the game as much as salty.
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IMO they really can't do much to punish the survivors or help the killer. What they can do is tell the killer how big the group is and how many groups somehow. It could even be passive, like the color of the sky or a remake of the survivor health corner thing to indicate who's partied with who. That way the killer can at least know to not feel bad for playing dirty, since he's gonna have to.
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You can’t nerf SWF without making it harder for solo players, the best thing to do is buff solo players on so they match SWF.
firstly, add a UI, similar to what was just added to gears 5 which notifies you if you’re against a stack team, because then at the very least you know what you’re up against and can prepare.
one of the things about SWF is the unknown, are these players communicating? We don’t know, I’d be fine with a proximity chat
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The only issue with SWFs is the fact that grouping with people invalidates a lot of Survivor perks. You get all sorts of free information you'd otherwise have to get from spending a perk slot. For the health of the game I think SWF is needed and punishing people for playing with their friends feels bad, but I'm honestly lost at what could be done to make it feel fairer.
I've heard people suggest buffing solo play and then buffing killer accordingly which sounds like a fair idea. At the very least killer's should know who in the game are paird with each other, maybe with a box around the grouped people's names and icons in game/in the lobby, so they can change their gameplay accordingly.
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In game voice comms that give the killer notifications when in use and killer is in a specific range
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It seems reasonable to buff solo to match SWF and then buff killers. And many people claim here that killers would just lobby dodge if we get icons telling when we are against groups of 3 or 4 but I like to believe major part of us would just change what killer or build to play against them.
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Take away a perk slot from people in swf. You already get a perk from being swf. In fact make swf a perk that you have to equip to swf
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I don't like the idea of showing the killer who's in a SWF. SWF are occasionally those flashlight clicking hit squads, but they're usually just people trying to have fun with their friends. They're often overly altruistic, have big disparities in skill, and really not much better than solo queue players. Identifying the SWF players just gives the killer an excuse to mori/tunnel/BM SWF players or to dodge lobbies entirely, none of which is healthy for the game.
I like the idea of buffing solo queue and buffing killer a bit to compensate, though!
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You nerf swf by boosting solo as much as possible and then buffing killers to compensate. The were going to do this but have clearly reneged on this promise as evident from the severe lack of action and constant killer nerfs....
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Kill it. And make it die a slow horrible death. Do something to it chuck Norris would do if you slapped his mother...
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I don't think hiding that there are groups with advantages is healthy for the game either. Knowing someone you're in a chase with can tell everyone else they're free to work on gens is a huge help. Keeping that hidden hurts killers massively.
As of right now, a killer who really wants to check for SWF can, it's just time consuming and makes you click through profiles.
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just show its an SWF and its fine.
I really dont mind 3 stacks with a random, but 4 stacks should be be marked as ones
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and then they all just spread out and hold m1 on gens. Good luck wearing out their defenses before they finish their task. Especially on large maps.
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Killer already get more/easier bloodpoints than survivor despite of SWF or not. Also more BPs wouldnt solve your made-up issue of SWF being gameplay disturbing, which is basically wrong.
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Clown, Bubba, Doctor, and Freddy have gotten buffs lately, and the latter three got a full rework with it. Meanwhile Spirit, Nurse, and Billy have gotten nerfs. Nurse and Spirit are still widely considered to be two of best killers in the game. It's not clear where Billy's going to end up, but given they're going to buff him a lot over the PTB I still think he's going to end up being decent.
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I hated SWF almost as much as broken matchmaking when I started playing this game. Now that I've seen most of them just meme around, play overly altruistic (ezpz 4k) or they just are bad, I don't care if it is SWF or solos or something in between. Yes swats come and go like but thankfully those are like 1 in 10 matches or something along those lines.
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I don't think anything can be done except closing the gap between solos and swf and then balancing the game around that.
Letting the killer know that they are playing against a swf group is one of the worst solutions ever. Most people would just keep dodging lobbies until they find a solo group, making queue times a nightmare. Punishing people for playing with their friends is never a good idea.
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Hit them, and put them on the hook.
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Maybe if they added extra BP for going against SWF?
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Nurse is the best killer that nobody plays and i doubt spirit will remain the way she is when more people start to play her and we see even more threads demanding a nerf to her.
Give demogorgon a 0.01% buff to shred speed and you would add that to the list of "buffed" killers.
I will agree with Freddy but he isn't that hard to beat either.
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Doing stuff for individual SWF groups as you said as maybe BP incentive or maybe debuff to them could work but that even to other companies would be hard considering what has to go into implementing not just the changes but a system to detect it and all that. Preferably, I want like a huge long PTB where they test this but they need to buff solo to the point of everything being as powerful as swf If not a little below all the while testing to buff killers around this as well. This is necessary because as much as they like to fix things one at a time buffing solos to this point and releasing it with no buff to killer will be a nightmare. It needs to happen simultaneously so that there is no huge power shift since doing so in those case will result in people leaving the game.
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Buff solo, give them comms, balance around the game with comms in it and give appropriate changes for it. It's the ONLY thing that could make it remotely fair.
Either they treat it like it exists or it will always remain op nonsense
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Nothing stopping 4 solo players from doing this as well.. spread out and hit gens. I solo all the time, and yeah, i stay on gens. I'd say a team of 4 solos that know what they are doing are going to be quite difficult. I don't need to be mic'd up to know that a survivor is being chased esp if they've been hit and i can see the icon on screen. I don't even go in for altruistic pulls right away, esp if i see another heading that way. I've seen lots of great solos.. biggest advantage killer has against all solo team is if all 3 go for a hooked teammate. (3 off gen and 3 potential victims if the killer is a camper) I lose more when I play with my friends cause we chat more about non game stuff rather than focus.. when I solo, it's all on me to do my job to help a group I don't personally know in the form of gens, pulls, loops, but as I've said in other threads, I'm more casual and am only speaking from non top tier perspective. Do Rank 1 killers get destroyed by SWFs every match? I'd think they would lose rank if so
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When you're playing with yer friends... make challenges for the team like running no perks or builds that aren't "meta", pick a teammate and do everything to have that person be the only survivor to escape... Make roles for the team (Healer, Gen Jocky, Runner, Decoy... etc)
SWF's don't have to be sweat squads
Going against SWF's can be difficult but that depends on the type of SWF your're playing against...
Honestly there isn't much the devs can do to SWF's other then taking them out of the game entirely (but that won't happen)...
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but that's just it. A killer can hit someone and break off with say.. Ghost face, and you would have no clue as a solo that has just happened unless you give up a perk slot for an information perk that a swf does not need to do, making themselves stronger.
You hit the nail on the head with the hook situation. Solo survivors do not know if someone is or is not going in for the save and thus WASTE TIME that swf does not by having multiple people move in for the save.
Swf coordinate perks and items to do things that rarely happen in solo.
Totems are weakened.
Traps are weakened.
stealth is weakened.
It all adds up.
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So SWF can not:
- tell each other where the killer is?
- tell each other WHAT killer it is (which can rob stealth killers of their early game grabs and hits)?
- coordinate unhooks to save time unlike solos?
- tell each other what gen is almost done if the killer chases you away which can result in said gen getting regressed via Pop Goes The Weasel after the killer caught you?
- tell each other what perks the killer has (as in: KILLER HAS SPIRIT FURY DON'T STUN THEM) ?
- coordinate bodyblocks for each other?
- find each other quickly if the killer slugs with Knockout, Third Seal etc. unlike solos?
- tell each other when the killer is camping allowing all 3 survivors to stay on their gens whereas solos need to figure it out themselves individually wasting lots of time?
- generally find each other quickly for easy heals?
- coordinate the gate?
- synergize perk setups with each other?
ETC.
Yeah... SWF certainly has no advantage over solo gameplay. All killers in the world that complain about SWF are wrong. Survivors good, killers bad!
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Buff solos to have similar info and then buff killers accordingly.
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"Give demogorgon a 0.01% buff to shred speed and you would add that to the list of "buffed" killers"
Doctor, Freddy, and Bubba all had massive and transformative buffs. Clown's buff was smaller, but it's hard to debate that no longer being slowed when throwing bottles is very helpful as Clown. I'm also counting Spirit's nerf, which was turning off collision during phasing and giving her a vault animation.
My point is that the devs are not just nerfing killers and helping survivors. That's a false narrative that I see way too much of in the community. They've buffed a number of bad killers to make them more viable. They've also nerfed a number of good killers to make them less oppressive. The same has gone for perks. The game is more balanced now than it ever has been and the majority of the changes the devs have made have been good for balance. There's still a lot of work to do, but all you can really ask for is steady positive changes, which we've been getting.
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Just ignore everything he says.
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You'll be pleased to know that cross play will most likely increase SWF frequency.
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I have absolutely no issue with SWF.
I merely dislike people that act like SWF didn't give you an advantage over solo gameplay.
I forgot to check the nickname before posting my comment. I should have known it was him as usual. My bad.
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Only 30%? Consider yourself lucky. On EU the majority of lobbies I get are 3-4man
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Yes @Yamaoka wasn't wrong and I never said he was. I just pointed out to whom he was replying to.
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Private 5 friends matches, no random people. Simple as that. :)
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The best thing to do would be to add more information that solo players could use, bringing them closer to the power of SWF. It'd be much easier to balance the game if they bridged the gap between solo and SWF. Simple things such as more indicators replacing the icons on the bottom left to represent what a player is doing (like gens, being chased, cleansing totems and whatnot) would go a long way to help solo players.
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No because it'll just push people into using discord. It needs to be on par with using other external voip tech. If VOIP was in the game it removes all the issues and the dev's can actually balance the game.
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Yeah, but your assumption is that all SWFs coordinate perks in such a manner, and my counter argument is that might be true at higher ranks or for try hards, but I don't see it that much. I see solos running metas regardless of SWF, and I think Killers are too quick to assume SWF even without verification. I don't run meta perks but utility perks. I like it. Am I ruining a rank seeking 3 man SWF? When I play with friends, sure, we are trying to win, but we are not hardcore rank seekers. We chat/laugh/talk as we play. I actually play better solo than with friends.
On the flip side, communication doesn't always work in your favor. I challenge killers to get a group of 3 friends, climb the ranks and successfully 4 man escape every time. If you and your 3 friends know all locations on all maps, can specifically call out killers, and are well versed in the map layout, than I would say you deserve the wins and rank ups. I can tell a friend the killer is by me at my generator or at the gas station, but I don't have a compass to say north, south, east, west, and my friend might have no clue where that is. I can say, 'I'm going to rescue you', but another friend is only 20 meters away and already working it on.
I prefer the, 'Oh #########, he got me.. help, help!' to the 'killer is in quadrant 4, and i can loop for 22.8 seconds, stay on those gens ya'll' type of play. To those who prefer the latter.. maybe they deserve some wins.
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My Response to the idea of buffing Solo player is as follows:
I love the idea of buffing solo queue and killer to match SWF i think would be an effective solution because it close the gap between the different kinds of game play ie (Killer and survivor). I have one main criticism though. If you buffed everyone it would absolutely shorten the length of the game. This is because a buffed survivor can complete objectives faster and a buffed killer can kill faster. This I think is an issue because it would cause the game to be determined by fewer events, this is already an issue in my option. For example, if a killer slugs everybody in the first 3 minutes, that is few events that make boring game play. Another example, if the killer finds a survivor at the beginning of the game and has a chase that last lets say 100 seconds, 3 gens can pop and the game is usually more than halfway done in 100 seconds. I think thats boring game play not only for the killer but 3 survivors who sat around and held mouse 1. Also a shorter game makes the time spend in a match less worth it. Do you really want to sit in a 20 minute queue for a game that already doesn't last long enough. I think the most rewarding games are the games that last long and cause the skill of the player to be king. Another reason a quick game is bad is because the point system rewards everyone for long games. Also if the entire team dies in 5 minutes the killer and survivors are punished with a game were no ranks go up. But in a game that last 30 minutes and a team dies, in my experience everyone gets 20k points easily.
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I believe the 'F' in SWF is the problem with any sort of nerfs to teams. Many high ranks are running against coordinated teams of high rank survivors who are not actually friends but have met equally competent survivors during their play time in which they can win with. The win and rank is more important than the fun, but you have to realize that nerfing those teams destroys people who actually play with friends.. some of which may be terrible, some of which may be excellent, but it doesn't matter cause they are friends and not looking for championship belts. These teams of friends and newbies alike are forced into Rank because it is the only way to progress in the game(perks/items). People being able to play with friends is better for the game....more people, faster matchmaking, healthier community, but nerfing that will turn away many newcomers and shorten the lifespan of the game.
2 of my rl friends won't play because they just get destroyed by rank 18-20 killers with all tier 3 perks and they themselves haven't hit lvl 20 with a single survivor.. they said the game is garbage/unfair and walked away. Mind you, they are good gamers, and excel in other multiplayer games. I tell them that they need to lvl up perks and other survivors in order to create builds that can aid in chance of success, but to their point, 'why would a ranking system ever pair them against someone who has invested over 100 hours?'
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allowing them tor ank up faster is probably a good thing if you want non sweaty killers to continue playing. you get enough red and purple ranks as it is even by 15 on killer for some reason or another. It would be worse if those same dudes came along more often due to ranking up more slowly. It would possibly run alot of low to mid rank kilelrs off the game or onto survivor only. I already let my dailies stack because of it, not worth killer for me after the event is gone and it seemed like most people stopped using cakes. might as well wglf and survivor again.
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