God forbid the game asks you to predict your opponent's actions
Comments
-
Being downed doesn’t automatically equal being outplayed. I’ve had plenty of Billy’s chainsaw nowhere near me and it’s counted as a hit. So I don’t class ridiculous hit boxes as being outplayed. Anyway, we’ll agree to disagree. I understand the point you’re attempting to make, I just don’t agree.
1 -
You cant be sure of that , and it's certainly not how the devs described it..this will likely affect how every hit looks
0 -
Depends on how lenient you want to be with the term asymmetrical - if by the strict definition of two sides that do not have the same exact loadouts or objectives, then nearly every esport- counter-strike, dota, starcraft etc.
But if you were to say the other side has to be COMPLETELY different from the other.. maybe Left 4 Dead, Natural Selection..
Or if it's a 1v4(or more) game.. there really hasn't been that many, none were very e-sport ready. Evolve is probably the only contender? Friday the 13th is the only asymmetrical horror game that's gotten close to the popularity of DBD, and that's obviously not competitive. DBD has the market cornered so to speak
0 -
I wish I had bookmarked where I read it. Basiclly your still going to have some degree of lag. Theres never going to be a world where lag is never a thing, the new system is just going to get rid of the really atrocious hits where your 10 feet away. Those are examples of cases of extreme lag. The cases where a Huntress hatchet hit you even though it looked 1 foot away from you...Thats EXPECTED levels of lag and yeah, thats still a hit.
1 -
Oh yeah, getting downed due to crazy lag and ######### is a completely different topic.
0 -
Yeah it's just as I thought, there aren't no games simmiliar enough to DBD that could be considered competitive or even just popular enough to compare in the same genre. That's in my opinion why so many can't accept any claim that calls DBD competitive, because it just might be the first of it's kind for competitive asymetrical "horror" game. Still thanks for the info.
2 -
It works in fighting games, where you have not only several chances per round to predict your opponent, you also have actual sets where you play the same person multiple times. In DbD you have one chance to try and think about what the killer's doing and if you predict wrong you're on the floor. Using fighting games as an example for DbD simply doesn't work. And if you think jungle gyms have no chance for mindgames you're probably running them wrong. There are definitely good ways to run the standard jungle gyms and there are ways you can trip even good survivors up pretty hard. As far as the Ormond and yamaokas tiles go I still don't know what to do at those, I don't think anyone does, but honestly it's the least of your worries when playing on those maps as killer anyway.
0 -
What i mean is a cooldown when canceling M2, he has none right now. In exchange they could make missing his M2 a bit less punishing. It would make playing as him more interesting too. Right now 90% of the times its just better to fake the M2 than actually using it
0 -
Yes, you're right, M2 is punishing and pretty hard to land with that camera lock, no even talking about how predictable the M2 is.
That's why I fake continue looping when they bait for the M2, they cancel it and I make a step back and teleport slam the pallet on them if they've overstepped. It's one of the ways you can outplay the lack of CD on M2 release, PHs expect you to not respect his power so when you actully do they get outplayed. Just one of the tricks that can counter PHs who fake M2.
1 -
OMG this! Is something survivors do all the time against M1 killers...pretend to leave the pallet then teleport back and smack them in the face. It works really well on PH and it is unreactable, its a read the PH needs to make at the cost of looping slower while keeping his M2 held longer.
0 -
Exactly, that's why I'm so frustated with so many survivors claiming that he's a lose lose scenario no matter what you do because he has not CD on M2 release when actuall good players know strats like this and are actively doing them to counter PH.
I know learning is tough but geez why do some many players just complain insted of trying to devise new strategies to counter someting they obviously don't have enough knowledge about.
0 -
I was merely using fighting games as an example, not directly comparing it to DbD. And as for jungle gyms, yeah its possible to mindgame them even against good survivors, but thats only if the survivors decide to try to milk more out of the tile, as opposed to running it as safe as possible. And once the pallet is dropped, it either has to be broken, or the killers power needs to make the tile unsafe. There is no angle the killer can attack from that isn't reactable from the survivors point of view
And yeah, ormond/yamaoka jungle gyms are even worse for it, but ayy, some tiles are made differently
0 -
I've been going around stating ways to counter Deathslinger, Spirit and PH (Culminated on this post lol XD) because people constantly keep droning on and on about them not having counter play. I think we'll probably see nerf to those killers because all their counters are too hard or unintuitive for a lot of players... It's a shame really...
Just imagine when no one will be able to use cowboy man cuz he's gonna have .5 second ADS and a sound queue so survivors can lightly tap A or D and easily avoid 90% of his shots XD
0 -
Thanks for wording it. That's exactly what I've been thinking
1 -
As a survivor you have at the very least 3 shots to predict your opponent if you get 3 hooked. In an ideal scenario you'd have 6 shots, two per every hook. But you can usually have more, depending on whether or not you get slugged and picked up or saved from the killer's grasp, or if you get injured but not downed then heal.
You also don't need all of these shots to get a feel for your opponent, because if you learn how the killer they're using is supposed to be played, then you know how they're likely to play, then you only need to make adjustments.
If you know how huntress plays, you know when she's likely to ready a hatchet
If you know how demo plays, you know when they're likely to try shredding
If you know how Deathslingers play you know when they're likely to shoot and what tiles are better against them
If you know how Spirit plays, you know when she'll use her power to try and catch you around the pallet and when she'll just catch up to you and so on.
And this can be applied to every killer in the game. Some are way harder to counter, others are waaaay too easy, but none is without a counter.
0 -
It's a shame really when completely unique playstyles (only like 3 killers out of 20 have it) that need deep understanding of your opponent to correctly predict their next move is generally considered as "not counterable". I hope devs won't go back on their design and ruin such great killers that managed to break through the boring M1, survivors have full control over chase, looping meta which so many support as fair and balanced.
Well if they ever get over-nerfed I'll be here to give a piece of my mind on such changes.
0 -
I agree with you and the OP.
I know this does not really fall in line with this post, but can you tell me how to use the bottles properly? (I genuinely want to know, it's not a snarky comment)
1 -
I'm big brained. Do not think I don't know what you are taking inspiration from.
1 -
Aye. It's unfortunate really because those are the ones that make chases much more engaging and much more satisfying when you consistently outplay the killer. But it is what it is.
Another thing about these killers that I think is not considered when talking about them is how they feel to play. Cowboy man has many slowdowns, but using his power feels responsive and encouraging. Same with PH. But then we have killers that have slowdowns and cooldowns and painfully slow actions no matter what they do that are such a drag to play. And this is what some people ask for in these killers. "Oh make his ADS slower, give him a cooldown so he can't M1"...it's like dude XD that feels awful to play.
I used to like playing as Plague. Then they gave her AWFUL cooldowns after puking and after cancelling the puke which made her so clunky and unbearable i dont even touch her anymore unless i have a daily.
To be fair this is more of a personal thing i suppose.
1 -
Whiny survivors (not all survivors ofc) just wanna rework all fun killer powers which are the ones with 110% MM and rework them into boring loop around piece of wood 115% killers with power that helps as much as a perk would.
Tbh I can understand plague since she's designed as 115% with possible use of insane snowball long range attack which would be pretty OP if there weren't some drawback for using it. It's all about what you feel comfortable with as you said.
1 -
No you tried to argue against solid points I gave to why he has no counterplay I showed you video evidence from a good player you then proceeded to ignore it because of your own personal opinions then you try to say that you cant be predictable which is more general counterplay than specific counterplay.
1 -
Whiny killers (not all killers ofc) just wanna have boring killers with have no counterplay which isnt fun for survivors. If you put your killer agenda for aside you'd see actual complaints instead of nerf everything.
0 -
If you somehow managed to counter ph,spirits or deathslinger you just guessed correctly thats it there I no solid counterplay there are tricks but not counterplay.
0 -
what about hitting a higher point so the gas is expanded by a lot in indoor maps?
1 -
Luckily enough, I and a few others have provided counterplay to your "no counterplay" killers, your kind just ignores it and cries for nerfs. It's so much easier to make an excuse like "boring" or "no counterplay" as justification for nerfs then actually gid gut.
2 -
Then you and I fundamentally disagree on what constitutes counter play. They're "guesses" in the same way that parrying in dark souls PVP is a guess. It's a read you make by anticipating your opponent's actions based on your knowledge of the game and how it's played. I find that to be a very high level of play.
I find the notion that the "tricks", as you call them, are not counter play to be baffling. It's like, you do these things in these situations and you can nullify whatever the killer is trying to do if you anticipate what they're trying do. Like what else do you want counter play to be? XD do you wanna be told exactly what the killer is doing and going to do at all times so you can have all the time in the world to decide what to do about it? Do you want a thing that you can do that 100% nullifies what the killer is doing whenever you do it after having ample time to see it coming? Cuz that's not the sort of counter play that is healthy for this game...that's the sort of counter play that makes playing killer stupidly demanding and frustrating, while letting survivors just turn off their brain to play.
2 -
How do you read a spirit standing still and a projectile that can shoot you at a anytime in less than a second?
0 -
Give me a counterplay to pyramid head that isnt guessing I'll wait.
0 -
Easy, it's very skillful action called:
Prediction - a statement/action about what you think will happen in the future
Guessing would mean that experince of either player doesn't matrer, in other words if PH or DS randomly M2ed blindfolded he would still have around 50% chance to hit which is complete false.
If you want 100% counterplay then I must disappoint you there is none. All skillful actions in pretty much all games with competitive elements invole some amount of prediction based on experience.
Also I wonder what do you think that pallet/window mindgames are, you think that killer somehow has 100% chance to succeed when he counters pallets via mindgames around a dropped pallet or moonwalks ? That's not how counterplay works. It's all predictions, just as is predicting use of PH's M2 or any other killer's ability.
4 -
Ok I thought so you cant name any its prediction which is 100% in the killer favor
Go to 4:12 and watch where he goes down and tell me how you counter that.
0 -
Holy ######### this cry baby again
1 -
Spirit standing still. Well you can also stand still and she will faze through you. It depends though. Are you injured? Has she used her power a few seconds ago? do you think its back? How has the spirit player played this match? Does she usually mindgame standing still or has this player always phased? Where is the spirit standing still? is it in an open area and she's trying to make it to a pallet before you? is she on the other side of a pallet? How far from you is she? Do you have spine chill to know if she's looking at you? Do you have iron will if you're injured? Does she have stridor? Can you hear her footsteps coming for you as she phases? if not maybe she is just standing still? What tile is this? Is this a bad tile against her or a tile that gives me more to work with? What do you have behind you? do you have enough time to make it anywhere? Can you fool her by making some scratch marks then vaulting back? All of these are questions you need to answer in order to make a read on what the player you're going against is going to do.
I will say this though. I do believe the spirit's glass shards should light up when she is phasing. If kept subtle enough and made consistent across all cosmetics it will create new mind game opportunities while still providing survivors with a little bit more info.
On the topic of Deathslinger, a similar set of questions arise. Are you at a loopable tile? Are you injured? is the tile safe against him? How far is deathslinger from you? Did you outposition yourself or are there tiles you can use against him? Has he shot and missed already? Are you going to make a corner? Are you gonna reach a pallet? Does he have the time to see if you're gonna juke or not before you make it to a safe location? If you vault the window, will he have LoS before you finish the animation? Has this Deathslinger player faked a lot? Does he try to shoot where you will be or does he try to shoot where you currently are? Can you move erratically and still make it to a safer place? Are there objects to break LoS? If you drop the pallet and he shoots you, can you break the chain and get distance?
You see, the thing about these killers in particular that makes them strong in chase is that you have to pay attention to all of these factors, and more that i may have missed, to inform what you do to try and counter them. And yes, these killers have the potential to put you in unwinnable scenarios IF you're not careful about how you play against them, which is why they're so demanding (and personally why i find them quite engaging to go against). If you pay attention to these factors as you're playing against them, you will be able to say, ok so im in this situation, I have these options, if I predict this correctly, they won't get the hit.
I'll give a quick example of ONE scenario. If you're at a jungle gym, Deathslinger is at a certain distance, you figure, ok Judging by the distance from the killer, I can make it to the pallet, however, if he takes a preemptive shot he might catch me before I make it. If I juke his preemptive shot and he doesn't shoot do I still have the time to make it to the pallet? Maybe yes, maybe no? It's up to you to take the risk according to the situation. At certain distances you can juke and still make the pallet, so you've put yourself in a favourable position. Because the Deathslinger needs to be preemptive. However, the Deathslinger can make the same prediction. He could say, well if I do not shoot he makes it to the pallet. If I shoot and he jukes, he makes it to the pallet. If I do not shoot and he doesn't juke, he makes it to the pallet. If I wait and he jukes, I might be able to shoot him before he makes the pallet.
It's a perfectly valid mind game scenario that good survivors will consistently try to put themselves in. And it's only one example of one scenario of what you can do against him. It varies a lot in terms of difficulty of execution and where each counter can be used, and usually being greedy is a pretty bad idea against these killers.
0 -
Dont bother with this guy. You can go over this again and again and he will refuse because he got beat therefore everything is OP.
1 -
Why cant i like this post more than once ?
2 -
His positioning was not great and the tile was unfavourable also the fact that he messed up his pathing, not much to do with the killer, it was more of a very bad circumstance. I can think of two things he could have done, though.
1- He could fake respecting his M2 and not dropped the pallet, only to turn back and smack the pyramid head in the face when he's going through the pallet. As i've said before in this very thread, survivors do this all the time against M1 killers, where they pretend they will leave the pallet, then turn around and smack the killer. The survivor already has torment so it's likely the pyramid head would let go of M2 as soon as he saw the survivor leaving the pallet in order to recover speed and catch up for the M1. This could also just work because as soon as the PH sees the survivor leaving the pallet, unless he reads the turn around, PH will lower his guard, and it'll be much more unlikely that he will react to the fakout, even if he didnt let go of M2. I think considering the distance from the killer, if he had commited to the pallet, this strat was likely his best option.
2- Had he not ######### up his pathing he might have had enough distance to go around the loop once and not let the pyramid head have enough time to wind up his M2 before the pallet drop. This makes it so the survivor has much more room to dodge Punishment of the Damned if PH commits after the pallet drop.
Like I said, however, this was a pretty bad tile against Pyramid Head. Against these stronger killers, it's imperative that you put yourself in positions that are more favourable to you. If you find yourself in a bad position like the survivor in the video, he had the 2 options i mentioned to try and stall as long as possible, which is what the survivor's job is anyways.
1 -
Well duh, there's 1 killer and 4 survivors who he needs to hook 3 times. This isn't 1v1 game where both sides have equal chances, odds are shifted in killers favor when he uses his power since he's supposed to be much stronger in 1v1.
Now for that video, as I said there isn't any 100% counter, countering something doesn't mean you have some technique or a tool that makes you win 100% of the time if you use it. Countering PH there is correctly predicting what killer's thinking and how he's going to play that pallet and waste as much time as you can so that teammates push gens.
First off, he never should have dodged (and failed miserebly by valking up the rock and getting stagger lol that was funny) before he reached the pallet that's insanely dumb, PH's M2 is slow enough to react if he does it prematurely, obviously PH was waiting if he's going to drop the pallet or continue running. Thus we have a mindgame, will the survivor drop the pallet or run and dodge M2. He was supposed to either expect that killer will cancel M2 for M1 or sliglty stop before the pallet for animation locked M2. Best play imao (ofc no 100% of sucess as I've stated before) would be to fake run through the pallet and observe if the PH's using his power before he goes close enough for the stun. If he reaches the pallet, do a teleport pallet drop for distance and if he doesn't and waites for the drop then capitalize on that distance and loop another round and repeat the process when the mindgame appears again.
Another thing might be to just stay at the pallet and watch really closely for him dropping his sword. If he does insta throw the pallet and if he doesn't be extremely on point with your movement since he'll be doing M2 where you need to predict the way he'll be shooting it.
Hard to win, I know but that's what's playing survivor is supposed to be. If the killer was wraith in that scenario he would just drop the pallet and killer would be #########. Where's fair counterplay there ? You don't have a single tool to get a hit on such safe pallet as wraith so you need to break it and waste time. But people would rather complain about killers that can win such pallets then about killer that can't and should be able to.
4 -
That was die or die I get where you are coming from and trying to read but against any patient and good Killer will wait for the survivor because if he ran through the pallet it was a guaranteed range because it was too small if we dodged he cancels. You seem smart enough to know that was heavily in the killers favor and he bad no real chance of winning in that scenario.
0 -
Not necessarily die or die, you never know. I've seen god nurses mess up the most easy blinks during DBD's history, it happens rarely but everyone can have a brain freeze once in a while. Maybe he might have made a correct read and killer could possibly make a bad one and get stunned. We'll never know since he insted made a mario jump.
Tough position to be in really, I can empathize with feeling unfairly downed when you're vs someone who's good with their killer that has good chase power but part of playing survivor is that you're the one chosing which tile you run to so even when in a bad spot you need to get into position as safe as you can. Unfortunately for him his tile wasn't great vs PH and he didn't manage to make some great read to win it.
Still, I prefer to vs such situations when I play survivor. When it feels like odds are stacked against me. I just can't find much fun in versing loopable killer who would be force to break the pallet on such tile and just run to another one and repeat. That't the playstyle I find boring but when such hard predictions are in play is where I find the excitement when playing survivor. Whenever I vs killers with such power I have a lot of fun even if I mess up my reads.
That's why I defend them, I don't want to lose those few killers who's gameplay is prediction based which I love and just face boring reaction based killers.
3 -
So another thing that is luck based yes we can all mess up but thats all a game of chance. I feel unfairly downed because there is nothing i can do I cant say it's like 2016 infinites where no matter what you so you cant catch the survivor it's more like I cant even handle this chase.
That mario jump he made didnt affect the over all point let's say he didnt he wouldnt have to options preemptively dodge and have PH cancel and m1 or run through and get shot. It's not even about reading your opponent because when you read your opponent you take in consideration of there past moves there he was just guessjng.
Also that's entirely subjective which I respect you like what you like and I do the same although just because I'm playing survivors doesnt mean killers should have chases where winning is luck based thats unfun.
Killers who are prediction based really dont have counterplay because all the "counter" relies on winning the guess which btw is so one sided that its oppressive.
0 -
Doesnt matter what happened yes he did mess up his pathing but regardless with what he was doing he was going down. Even with the distance he had he could of had range addons and so the threat of being hit by the range is now in play if he runs straight then attempts to fake boom he cancels.
The reason he messed up his pathing is because he was trying to dodge his range which is up happens against slinger. But the PH just closed in there zoning him by just having his power up. And like I said the threat of being hit by the rang is what makes it so unfair you dont know when theh will use it because its not enough information he can either cancel or shoot.
1 -
There you go ignoring my valid points because that's all you can so you cant even properly defend argument you start insulting me.
1 -
You can call it luck if you want, I'll still disagree since my perception of luck based power would be a coin flip. You use it no matter how good/bad you are and you have 50% to get a hit or not. Luckily that's not how any chase power in DBD works. Predictions have a bit of luck mixed into them but it boils down to game of who can maximalize their chance of sucess by playing and predicting better. Key here is experince with the power and how it's used, the more you know anout optimal ways to use it the better is your chance to predict it correctly. Killer has (should have) higher base chance to win these due to the 4v1 gameplay of DBD.
There are quite a few things about DBD that are very opressive like completely safe loops vs weak killers, facecamping with instadown killers, etc etc. As of now all of these things are considered a part of normal DBD gameplay, many things are unfair about DBD when you think about if both sides have good chance to prevent other sides's strategy/gameplay. Not saying that these things shouldn't be changed because both sides have them so it equals out. But DBD will never be 100% fair, killer will always feel unfair if you get into bad position where it's almost die or die situation or when survivors have super safe loop with 0 mindgame. Many of these scenarios boil down to if you felt like was fun/fair overall which is very subjective for everyone.
I'll wrap it up today since it's kinda late where I live but it was nice to talk someone reasonable.
3 -
Lmao, I already debunked your "valid points" you just refuse to accept them. Same as you are doing with this guy.
0 -
What debunk did you do you only saidndont be predictable.
0 -
Let's agree to disagree then I wont make this long since you have to go but ya jb nice talking to you, you have a good night.
1 -
I didn't think that one of us would somehow persuade the other one about his view but I enjoyed the discussion. We have different view on the matter which is completely fine. Sharing your views with others who are able to make civilised discussion is good enough for me.
1 -
He messed up his pathing because he looked back when he should have just listened to the sound queues. He was already in a bad position and messing up his path by moving his camera was a bad move. As a survivor you need to know when to look back and when to just move forward. That was one of his many mistakes.
Even if a survivor runs in a straight line it's a pretty risky move to commit to PH's M2 cuz their movement is too sudden and they have some time to react to it. Missing the shot is extremely punishing. It's a read the killer has to make. If you take the shot and the survivor dodges you lose a lot of distance. If you don't take the shot they may make it to a favourable position.
As I said, what makes stronger chase killers strong is the fact that not every pallet is a sacred god sent barrier against them. There are better tiles and worse tiles. If you go to a bad tile against a killer, that's still on you for choosing a poor tile. You should be given god shields everywhere.
He messed up the location he ran off to. He messed up his pathing towards a potential safe location, and he did not use either possible tactic to try and get on top of a predicament.
I specifically said, YES there are times where killers and survivors can put each other in unwinnable or almost unwinnable scenarios. And I specifically said, that if you're not careful about way more factors with stronger chase killers, you can put yourself in a scenario like this.
This guy had a small chance of making something out of the very very bad position he ran to. He didn't do it.
When I run Pyramid Heads I don't just think "oh pallet, i'll go to it". I think, "is this tile a workable tile against this guy's power. What Is my distance to this guy? How many times can I loop him here without being susceptible to his M2/M1 fake out? If he's too close, Im already in a bad position because he is very dangerous up close (another reason why people say keeping distance is extremely important against him), what are my options to get out of this bad position?" The thing is, i have options, and the options depend on my specific situation, and they may or may not work. I should use my knowledge of how the killer is played and how the specific player has payed in order to inform which option is the better option, and if he sees it coming then that's a read he made as well. If pyramid head is too close and the only tile i find is not good against him, I have to try and make it work in a situation where he has an advantage, and it's logical that it should be way harder for me.
Imagine an M1 killer at a jungle gym. This tile is massively in favour of the survivor. So for a killer to pull off a hit on a jungle gym he needs to massively outplay and read the survivor he's going against. Same deal with PH...you get put into a situation that's advantageous for him, we'll he's got the upper hand. You've got options, but they're limited and very hard to pull off. And because he is a more chase oriented killer, there are many spots that are way more unsafe against him that normal killers. But conversely, there are other situations that you can put yourself in, and that good survivors put themselves in consistently, where the PH has about the same chance as the survivor or the survivor has a greater chance than the PH player. The PH player will make do and try to get something out of those situations as well.
0 -
Ok I'll make this short to sum up your point try to put yourself in a good position right? Thags the thing you cant so that against PH because he can zone for free at any pallet when he puts his sword in.the ground its if I throw this I get hit by the range and if I dont he cancels and m1s guesses like that are not healthy that t and l wa he was at was in the killers favor he didnt capitalize though.
Also even a good survivor cant constantly put themselves at good tiles especially with map rng maps like shelter woods are so bad with that I've had variations with zero jungle gyms and only t and l walla sand pallet gyms.
You are giving some good advice but it's still has so much luck to factor in and ontop of that PH flawed ability.
0 -
It doesn't even matter if you're a step ahead. The servers will completely screw you over.
0 -
What if you drop the pallet before he gets his sword int he ground, because you're a smart survivor and you can see PH coming, and you know he is dangerous up close or you can see that from the angle he has he's not gonna plonk his sword because he doesn't have LoS, if he does it'll be a risky play from his part and he will lose distance? You get the pallet drop and he has to hit his hard to hit ranged attack when you are at a much better spot to dodge it... I've done it consistently. And have had it done. Consistently. And I've seen it done Consistently, by people who are way better than me on both sides.
A jungle gym is an example of a tile that's pretty safe against him. Shack is decent against him if you know how to run it.
He doesn't get his zoning potential for free. He gets it from survivors being greedy, not making distance and then not knowing what their options are when they get themselves in a bad spot.
At this point I am also tired of this discussion. We have given our points. You will think whatever you like. Hopefully the people who stop by and look at the discussion can appreciate whichever points they think are better and make up their minds about the issue. Or better yet, they can play the killer against good survivors, then play well against him and see for themselves what they can and can't do about it.
0
