Visit the Kill Switch Master List for more information on these and other current known issues: https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/kb/articles/299-kill-switch-master-list
We encourage you to be as honest as possible in letting us know how you feel about the game. The information and answers provided are anonymous, not shared with any third-party, and will not be used for purposes other than survey analysis.
Access the survey HERE!
Question about Legion...
So I was watching some Monto videos last night whilst I was in bed and I came across his Adept Legion one. I completely forgot that Legion used to be able to down with FF if you hit the survivor a third time before they mended. Why was this removed? Was it deemed OP?. To me, it didn’t seem like it was completely easy to pull off as you lost FF after hitting the same survivor twice.
Do you think this should be brought back or are you glad it’s been removed?
Comments
-
As I, and many others have posted many times, the Legion changes had nothing to do with the chasing backwards cheese. They aded all kinds of punishing nerfs to Legion, that had zero to do with the exploit they were addressing.
"Why?" you ask, thats what Legion players have been asking since the day it happened.
We stopped asking why long ago and now await our time of revenge.
We shall be lethal again one day, "when?" is the real question.
17 -
I completely understand why they removed the moonwalking exploit. But I don’t get why they removed the ability to down with FF? Watching the Monto video actually made me a little sad as I completely forgot it was a thing and now I want it back.
4 -
Us Legion players have felt that sadness every day. Which is why you see my posts hoping for his power to be addressed one day again.
If you were around during that time you know it was a rushed decision, pushed out quickly to try and quell and combat the amount of twitch streamers promoting and showing how to do the backwards cheese to pressure the devs. I saw it day after day, streamers with 1000s of viewers were like "maybe this will force the devs to delete Legion" so they did the backwards cheese all day on stream causing others to do it. Devs reacted by totally destroying his feral frenzy.
Meanwhile those of us who actually played and loved legion were like "man you guys are terrible and should be banned"
Instead, no-name players who did the exploit and the exploit when you had infinite mending etc, were banned, but these streamers are still live, and have never been reprimanded despite being scummy and causing the entire ordeal to be worse.
I blame them for what happened to legion.
21 -
I’ve been playing since 2017 and I actually purchased Legion on day one. Even with the changes they’re still one of my favourite killers to play as, I just don’t think I ever utilised the fact they could down with FF, so it caught me off guard seeing Monto doing it. I remember all the controversy was surrounding the infinite mending build and the moonwalking. I don’t recall anybody complaining about FF being able to down them so I don’t get why that was taken away? It just seems like a weird thing to do.
6 -
Because Legion trivialised both pallets and windows while moving significantly faster than survivors, which means once you'd been hit, it was only a matter of their cooldown before you go down. There was no skill to downing someone that way, no real counterplay to them when they move that much faster with no penalty whatsoever.
9 -
"I don’t recall anybody complaining about FF being able to down them so I don’t get why that was taken away? It just seems like a weird thing to do."
Which is why you see me constantly say "devs made changes that had nothing to do with backwards chase cheese"
That was ALL that needed to be addressed, the "infinite mending" addons was such an easy fix and required zero changes to the killer itself.
Instead we got, 4 second stun + blind, 20 second power cooldown, miss attack stun etc,... cant even list all the changes, majority of which did not address either exploit.
4 -
It made the power too oppressive. The extra speed Legion has during FF means it's very hard to escape them in individual chases. It was too easy to pick one Survivor, run them down a couple times, hook them, then choose the next target. Frank's Mixtape made that even worse, so that also got a big hit to power.
Legion's update was multi-faceted. The moonwalk issue was one thing that had to be fixed. Lack of meaningful counterplay was another. The general feeling of playing Legion was also an issue, as they used to be a 4.4m/s Killer with a 24m Terror Radius.
The update was deemed successful because:
- Their play rate did not go down.
- Their performance stayed about the same, and went up a bit with the subsequent tweaks we did after the intial update.
- The rate of players disconnecting from games against Legion went down significantly.
24 -
Almo, I have three questions about Legion balance in general...
I am curious about why Legion loses half their power during their basic attack... on an inherently non-lethal power? Is there a reason that still exists?
Is there a reason Legion has a 4 second stun? I would think that a 3 second stun would be decent for them, since they have nothing like the lethality of Nurse, who can have a shorter fatigue, or PH, who can activate their Punishment of the Damned from roughly a 1/5 of the meter.
And my last question is more of a what do you think of the concept kind of thing:
What if there was a secondary trap-like ability added to legion? There are four Members, why not make all of their presences known? Have the killer player set up a max of 3 ambush locations. When a survivor gets closer, they trigger an AI ambush from a different legion member who tracks them down in Frenzy. They will either get the hit, get stunned and walk away, or the survivor would get out of range. They would, of course, spawn behind a wall and have a TR, chase the survivor, and then despawn behind a wall if they fulfill one of the 3 conditions.
The Legion suffers from the lack of an ability to act on information they receive in a match. These traps, while not being able to down anyone, will still allow them to pressure in areas they want to, but not as oppressively as in a three gen situation. They still have to loop and down everyone.
You could even have customization for each one, so that way there would be a reason for getting one of each cosmetic type (one cosmetic of Frank, Julie, Suzie, and Joey respectively). There could even be monetization that way if you need a fiscal reason to.
Just a thought.
15 -
Don't even try to ask questions about Legion and his questionable drawbacks, they never respond to these kinds of questions.
6 -
I'm a survivor main and I think Legion is still pretty powerful! I run into a couple every day that completely wreck the entire team and a few more that create so much chaos and pressure that the game is dragged out really nicely. My opinion might be moot because I never played as Legion, but I think it's a good killer and very lethal with someone skilled with Legion.
2 -
Why Legion loses their power after M1ing is beyond me.
7 -
There are alot of outlaying issues with legion's current base kit, I agree with that, like seriously a healthy teen cannot run for more then 20 seconds without losing vision is on the small level of a lass that can blink through solid objects? Completely logical. Maybe I'm bias as a legion main, but for the overall health of the killer there should be some changes.
2 -
The Legion members are young adults.
You can see them between 18-19 years to 21-22 years. Depending of which person we talk.
Would bhvr revert the rework, I would be totally happy again what DBD matters.
I don't care about the rest of the stuff. I just want to play my old Legion and I am happy again. If the devs have doubts about this idea, they could easilie delete just every addon that either makes the frenzy longer, or the knife attacks stronger. The Legion was harder to play without them, but that was exactly the right thing to have fun with them.
About "too oppressive" I can just sad laugh.
1) DBD has a horror theme. Nobody can denie this and a good horror theme is always oppressive.
2) How do we call then SWF's, always playing against the same survivor perks, insta-down abilities of other killers, keys&moris and so on? Is that not "oppressive"? Not that would be a bad thing after all. I am not against SWF's, even I am a killer main. Also I can see a use in the rest of the things.
3) I still doesn't care for the feelings of DC'ers. 1 or more persons doesn't care for his team and dc's and I should feel pity for them? Will never happen, not in a thousand years.
4) The survivors who were most vocal about a Legion nerf, were the survivors who have not watch one single video of how to play against the Legion and they had not read one single tutorial. From where I know this? Because I had link and write them such tutorials to this time. But for sure, they had watched the Legion op videos with the exploits or op addons.
Come on... No normal person can take such learn resistant persons honest...
5) The Legion without frenzy addons was not oppressive. I know this, because that was how I have played the Legion to this time. In 95%+ of my matches I had never use a addon, or at a maximum the brown ones. I just had 1x time test the purple ones and after "whoa, those are op as f..." I had touch them never again.
Btw. Don't be mad at me now for this, but that topic is not like everything else DBD releated for me. It is a heart topic :).
3 -
Legion needs a total power rework so unfun to verse, and a weak power at the same time.
0 -
Dude, just stop. With "too oppressive" he meant survivors felt like they can't do anything against The Legion, there was not counterplay to how easy it was for him to follow someone and hit him 3 times + the moonwalking exploit.
In a PVP game everyone has to have at least a chance. If they don't, they stop playing.
3 -
I had never denie that the Legion was too oppressive with exploits and/or the right addons.
That they clearly was.
What I denie was, that the Legion was too oppressive without exploits and/or addons.
And my point of view to this is... If you have a problem with exploits and/or addons, fix the exploits and change or delete the addons.
The Legion without those things had counterplay. But I will not write everything about it down here again, for 2 reasons:
1- It doesn't matter anymore. The new Legion has a new playstyle and needs a different counterplay because of it.
2- It is a waste of time. The people who think that the Legion without addons had no counterplay would not even read a tutorial about how to do counterplay if it would include a hint to a autowin button. They stay by their opinion no matter if this opinion is right or wrong.
That is just my experience, sorry and no offence.
1 -
i would like to clarify this:
they did NOT rework Legion for the sole purpose of that moonwalk cheese - they reworked them because they deemed the entire chase mechanic Legion has had with his FF to be very unskillfull, lacking in counterplay and extremely unfun for the survivor, hence the nerfs.
Legion has to wait for their whole power to recharge before using it? - that was because back then Legions would just wait till their power was 10 - 15% before Frenzying repeatedly until the survivor died.
Legion gets broken out of their power uppon missing an attack? - that was because back in the day Legion had zero punishment for getting outplayed / messing up and could just spam M1 until they hit, which made the whole power pretty much unavoidable.
Legion can not take 30% of the Survivors mending bar off anymore with a FF hit on a deeply wounded survivor? - thats because all Legions did back then was walk behind a Survivor, get their power to 15% and FF them, which was basically unavoidable, then get stunned out of the power and rinse and repeat until the Survivor went down. If you REALLY want that back, use Franks Mixtape - that one allows you to continue doing that, buuut you cant 15% your power anymore and you cant run around spamming M1 until you hit them.
the entirity of the Legions old chase aspect was cheesy and not ment to be used in the way it was. Legion wasnt ment to tunnel down somoene like that, they were ment to play the way they currently do - running around, spreading the damage and then hunting the Survivors down manually.
I'd also like to add to this: from my experience, not as a Legion main, but as someone who has really gotten into the killer, ever since the nerfs didnt make me feel dirty and unskilled for playing them and played them a lot, Legion is pretty underrated.
Legion is indeed a very lethal killer. He no longer is the most unskilled killer in the game though, instead you will actually have to pull off some skillfull plays when you do want to catch someone with them. They are not great, but they can be very freaking deadly.
Ive killed sooo many survivors who were like "oh, pffffff, its a legion! whats he gonna do?" and started mending in my face uppon being hit with FF or disrespecting me in other ways.
The entirety of the old chase mechanic this killer had was bad gamedesign and for the overall health of the game its the best they removed it.
3 -
Sorry, but as a guy who has play the Legion to pre and post rework times and also Trapper, Meyers, Ghostface, Clown, Nurse, Hillbilly, Huntress and 2x times (thx to red addons) the Pig, I need to say that the Legion without addons needed not more or less skill as many other killers.
We can take out here maybe Huntress and Nurse, since they are so extrem different to anything else we can compare.
With addons, yes, it was a no skiller. That's why the Legion had made no fun with addons, in my opinion.
I mean, where is the fun in a almost never ending frenzy with stronger knife attacks, thanks to some addons?
Had feel shallow, the 1x time I tested it. Without addons, it was fun and I mean real fun.
0 -
so you're trying to tell me that pressing M2 to get an guaranteed, unavoidable down is skillfull?
literally every killer you listed here requires you to AT LEAST follow the most basic chase rules of cutting them off around windows / pallets and actively reward a good and skillfull usage of their power.
Trapper requires a good setup, Myers requires good basic looping skills and needs to build up his power while remaining unseen, Clown requires some sort of aim and good loopoing skills, Nurse requires very good predictions and precise blinks, Hillbilly needs to be able to manage his chainsaw well and Pig requires you to play around loops with her ambush - what did Legion require you to do that was "skillfull"?
here's how a typical oldschool Legion chase looked like:
1) Legion finds you and gets close
2) Legion enters FF and gets an unavoidable (jumps through windows and over pallets very quickly (= ignoring any base chasing mechanic), has no cooldown on missed attacks (= no punishment for skillless plays and no reward for skillfull plays on the survivor side) and moves at an insanely fast movementspeed (= continuously catching up)) hit on you
3) Legion hits you again (reusing the methodes of step 2), cutting your DW bar by 30% and gets stunned.
4) Legion gets out of the stun and walks after you
5) Legion has their power back at ~15% and FFs at you again (repeat steps 3 to 5 until you are downed)
that is "skillfull gameplay" for you?
are you certain?
3 -
Not possible with a Legion without addons.
If you doubt this, search me please a video on YouTube - or any other plattform - and show me a Legion without addons, who had did this to a, at least normal survivor group.
It doesn't have to be even experts, just also not totally newbies.
In a oridnary chase, you had the chance to hit a survivor 2 times. If it was a total potato 3 times. After that they were gone, if they again not were bloody beginners.
The Legion to this time was a killer with a very short action window, if we count in the frenzy duration to this time and the abilities of the survivors to avoid being hit by whatever.
Also to get someone with 3 hits down was not possible as a Legion without addons. If you see that in a video -> look at the endscreen and you will see there addons. I promise.
1 -
Press W on your keyboard.
1 -
Of course 3 Frenzy's was enough to down you. Each Frenzy removes 10 seconds and there is a total of 30, so 4 hits would down counting the initial hit that applied DW in the first place.
It wasn't particularly fast, but it was a fixed time. This is why the idea of Legion being uncounterable was compatible with the idea of Legion being underpowered. He downs you in a fixed amount of time, about 30 seconds-ish.
Now that's obviously too long to avoid being gen rushed. Which is why he's considered underpowered. But it's juuuuust fast enough for people to do it anyways and piss off the Survivors every time.
Throwing addons into the mix isn't what made the strategy possible. The addons just make the strategy go from "consistently mediocre" to "consistently really good". Because franks mixtape easily cuts over 10 seconds off the time to down.
3 -
i dont think i have anything i could add to that.
Legion is a 4v1 aspect was horrible, he took way too long to down anyone to build any significant amount of map pressure, however in a 1v1 aspect he was unbeatable - slow, but unbeatable.
2 -
This content has been removed.
-
It was worth a try. He never responds to me anyway. But if we just stop trying, then that means we stop caring. That kind of attitude should worry them.
1 -
i would like to counter point some of this
they did NOT rework Legion for the sole purpose of that moonwalk cheese - they reworked them because they deemed the entire chase mechanic Legion has had with his FF to be very unskillfull, lacking in counterplay and extremely unfun for the survivor, hence the nerfs.
This doesn't apply anymore, so shouldn't some of the changes be reverted?
Legion has to wait for their whole power to recharge before using it? - that was because back then Legions would just wait till their power was 10 - 15% before Frenzying repeatedly until the survivor died.
This doesn't work anymore with current legion. and besides the 1 addon, legion can't even down anyone with their power.
So, if we change the addon, there's no reason to have the full bar requirement is there? All we gotta do is add the line "You can only frenzy with a full power bar" on the addon, and base legion can frenzy with any amount of bar.
wouldn't that make legion more fun?
Legion gets broken out of their power uppon missing an attack? - that was because back in the day Legion had zero punishment for getting outplayed / messing up and could just spam M1 until they hit, which made the whole power pretty much unavoidable.
and currently it's way too punishing, losing half a bar would be way better. You still can't just spam m1, but you have a second try (unless we do the thing I suggested above, then this becomes irrelevant)
I think that's all I wanted to reply to...
to summarize, the reasons they changed stuff back then isn't really important, we gotta consider what reverting those changes would mean to current legion
1 -
If we count 3 frenzy, then yes you were right. I had thought that we talk about knife hits of his m2 abilitie.
Thank you for writing this. It shows at least what I have already write above.
The people that were against the Legion couldn't even deliver evidence for what they were saying, nor they were able to learn. All what has come were either passive-aggressive comments, insults or some sort of blocking behavior.
Of course they demanded, that we pro Legion guys watch the videos of streamers, who showed the Legion with exploits or op addons. This I have also already mentioned above.
Do you know what the problem is with mains of whatever is Ramsay?
The usual nerf cry-attitude works there not, because they know about what they are talking.
I bet with you, that in the whole thread, not one guy is be able to show me a op Legion without addons video from that time against a at least standard-survivor group.
What does that mean? That the mains, who have talk about it were maybe right? Yes, that could be...
0 -
What? No, I was telling YOU to press W on your keyboard.
0 -
One thing I will say is that Feral Frenzy is a horrible name for what the skill actually is now. Before you could slash at people willy nilly while charging and vaulting around. It definitely doesn't feel like I'm in a Feral Frenzy anymore.
0 -
3. The rate of players disconnecting from games against Legion went down significantly.
Devs conceding that if survivors don't like something all they have to do is DC to get it changed, a trend that continues to this day.
0 -
DCs are only one clue there might be something wrong. In this case, we had a Darius* problem with The Legion: low power, high annoyance. Once we did the update, DCs were only one clue that we acheived our goals. The goal was to make Legion less annoying to play against while keeping the power level the same or having it go up. It stayed the same, hence the subsequent update to give a buff to the power level.
*Darius in League of Legends was famous for having a very high ban rate, but a low win rate. This indicated that he's no fun to play against even if he's not that powerful.
0 -
Thanks for the explanation Almo.
Even I have my doubts about the annoyance. Not that some people were not annoyed by the Legion - thats for sure, but you know... The one thing someone is loving hates a other guy, somewhere on this world.
To this day, DBD has not seen a second killer like the Legion and I talk here from the concept of the killer.
Like the Nurse as example, the Legion was unique and had not feel like... well... so many other m1 killers have feel to this time and the Legion also today... Unique concepts are usually appealing to players, that have not find their favorits yet and I think it is always bad if a game cuts itself and keeps potential customers away.
So I am not convinced that this was a good deal. In my eyes, the people who have cryd, were a small but very loud minority, backed up by a handful of streamers.
This guys were made happy in exchange for the happyness of the Legionplayerbase to this time, in exchange to the survivors who have stay neutral or have like to play against the Legion and in exchange to potential new customers, who have waited for something different as the m1 killers we know today.
PS: I would love to see more devs in discussions like this and many others in the forums. I know that the forums are rough - the survivors I talk with in the game are usually 3 times nicer, as some I have met here, or in the steam forums and that counts for sure, also for some killers - but you know... For the people that can talk like grown ups, its much appreciated.
0 -
A 4 second headstart for the survivor after the power ends is a bit too much. The Feral Frenzy duration feels a little too short and the cooldown is way too punishing. The cooldown is longer than the timer on a succesful swing. Moving that from 4 seconds to 3.2 would be much more fair I think.
0 -
That was awesome
1 -
You may have made Legion less broken, but he’s still very annoying to fight because of how utterly basic his entire kit is. That baseness also means that his counterplay is extremely simple, so now Legion is good at noobstomping and literally nothing else.
He’s still just as much of a Darius as he was before. I don’t know how you could possibly think otherwise.
And for the record, your stats are full of hokey. The change you implemented with the Oni patch was a nerf, not a buff.
Edit: I take it back, he’s not a Darius anymore. That implies his power level was kept roughly the same when in reality he was neutered like a dog. Now he’s a Teemo.
1
