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THIS is the problem with gen speeds and early game.
Comments
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I like your breakdown but true highlights the problem here instantly. He states that the build has zero gen pressure. He knows it isn't a good build and that he's likely to lose. The problem with saying gens need to be nerfed or fixed is that if they balanced around zero slowdown perks like true has in this build. That would make this game a nightmare to play if you had a spirit or nurse with all slowdown perks. Pyramid also isn't S tier so there's no reason to not run slowdown.
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These arguments of high rank group play is so niche though. Like out of the hundreds of players in red ranks, so few of them are groups. I get it, it sucks, but it's like me complaining about getting mori'd almost every game for a couple days. I'm just unlucky with the matchmaking. It's anecdotal at best.
The argument that the potential of a group doing this is real, but the reality of it is that it's not common, not fun to play this kind of style for more than a passing moment, as a gag or just to feel "pro." It's just not fun in general, which is why the vast majority of players don't use these playstyles, and if they play as a four person group, it's usually just to mess around, play meme builds, etc.
This forum seems to give off the impression that all survivors, duos, trios, four person groups, are all trying to sweat the P3 blood off their clothes as they abuse every mechanic in the game to "win." When the reality is that the player you couldn't catch that one game probably got the crap beat out of them the last game, and might have that same experience the next. It's not a consistent experience for players. Stream highlights and YouTube videos only show the best three games they had but in reality they probably played several before, several in between, and several after, all which didn't make the cut.
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These arguments of high rank group play is so niche though. Like out of the hundreds of players in red ranks, so few of them are groups. I get it, it sucks, but it's like me complaining about getting mori'd almost every game for a couple days. I'm just unlucky with the matchmaking. It's anecdotal at best.
The argument that the potential of a group doing this is real, but the reality of it is that it's not common, not fun to play this kind of style for more than a passing moment, as a gag or just to feel "pro." It's just not fun in general, which is why the vast majority of players don't use these playstyles, and if they play as a four person group, it's usually just to mess around, play meme builds, etc.
This forum seems to give off the impression that all survivors, duos, trios, four person groups, are all trying to sweat the P3 blood off their clothes as they abuse every mechanic in the game to beat them. When the reality is that the player you couldn't catch that one game probably got the crap beat out of them the last game, and might have that same experience the next. It's not a consistent experience for players. Stream highlights and YouTube videos only show the best three games they had but in reality they probably played several before, several in between, and several after, all which didn't make the cut.
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If the devs add the early game phase that they have mentioned in a stream to increase the average length of matches without touching some of the biggest issues survivors have at all, then just wait and see the killer queue times sky rocket like crazy. I‘m pretty sure that will happen in that case.
The devs can‘t just increase the average length of matches so every killer has a better chance of winning and then not touch on the frustrating strategies for survivors to go against, because those strategies will become even less bearable and fair.
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Split gen pressure by 2-3 survivors doing individual gens far away from each other is way too powerful. The repair speeds are too fast when taking into account the distance to travel between the gens and the time it takes to catch a single survivor.
The limits on killer mobility for all but several killers and how long a survivor can last being chased with the number of pallets/windows/safe houses is mathematically flawed. Even just the ability to just hold w after being hit and last another 20 seconds as the killer wipes his blade and chases with w is too much. This doesn't even account for the ability of a survivor to juke, hide and vanish during a chase or outplay the killer through loops. Even carrying the survivor to a hook and then proceeding to travel across the map to the now completed gens is silly. The math is just imbalanced overall.
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But that something is not the right one. Survivors don't want to hold M1 for longer, whether that be from longer gen speeds or having to fix an extra gen. Another side objective that is mandatory and doesn't require just holding a button would help (totems are technically an objective, but are in no way mandatory, and unless they have NOED are a huge time waster to find and cleanse unless you really want the extra points), making some of the bigger maps smaller would help. Chopping down all the ######### corn would help. (Damn you corn maps, I love you as survivor, hate you as killer). No but seriously, please devs, never make another Coldwind Farm map, there's too many already. Putting more thought into map design and extensive testing of maps before release would help. (If you're going to create an indoor map, please put some indicator where the freaking gens are please, a little blinking light over the door or inside the rooms like on Haddonfield would help. Also multi story maps need more than 3 ways up and down please and thank you. Testing totem spawns and potential infinites would also help.)
Add more items to the game maybe?
I think a totem indicator for both sides would help, for survivors either a noise when a dull is cleansed or put an indicator on small game or another perk. For Killers please let us see which Hex is which. Is this my Devour, is this my Haunted Grounds? Who knows!
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total agree i hate the corn map too to bad i want woodsboro map i feel it have to be between Coldwind Farm/red forest with out the rain.
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No Discordance, Ruin+ Surveillance, or Corrupt Intervention.
If you dont plan for early, you dont win the early.
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Stop with this "whataboutism" I'm not saying they shouldn't fix other things. I'm saying this is a big problem that needs to be fixed. When they nerfed ruin, they waited a while to change toolboxes because they wanted to see the affect. I'm saying there is a problem here that needs to be fixed. If they need to make adjustments after that, then so be it.
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As a rank 1 killer with 1000 hours, you don't have to be a SWF in order to be "organized" this can happen at high ranks against good survivors.
Also, this is a terrible argument:
"Let's not fix this problem cause it doesn't happen that often" i could say the same thing about iridescent head huntress with mori, but it's still stupid and should be fixed.
Games should ALWAYS be balanced at the highest level, or there is no point in improving. There are things they can do to be smart about how they balance to make it so it doesn't hurt low level players. Low level survivors aren't looping the killer around efficient tiles like the killer shack or jungle gyms like crazy, they aren't playing on gens perfectly while they crouch across the map or self-care in a corner. You can nerf high level survivors without affecting low level survivors.
This video talks about how they did that on TF2:
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Requiring a specific perk or killer to play is not balanced. There is a reason ruin was used in 80% of games, the fact that i was basically required was stupid and everyone knows that. Now i'm not saying that you should balance the game around no perks or addons, or that every perk should be viable. But i shouldn't have to run pop/BBQ/Corrupt on every killer.
Also, please rewatch that first few minutes and tell me what "slowdown" perk would have done anything in that case? Maybe if he ran corrupt he only would have lost 2 gens and 1 almost done, but the point still stands that he completed 8% of his objective, while survivors completed 60% of theirs.
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Tru; Play a ranged killer who's good vs looping with 2 perk against palettes drop and breaking every palette you see instead of forcing a survivor at a loop to kill him with your power once he try to go on a pallet/window.
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Are you even watching the same video? He gets his first at about 45 seconds into the match. When you factor in the first chase time and finding the first survivor, that is pretty fast.
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This thread is bizarre.
1) The survivors are competent. Ideally, less skilled killers will get matched with less competent survivors.
2) His build is trash, he even acknowledged this. Corrupt, Sloppy, Infectious, BBQ. All you need.
3) Just because you can't recognize the killer's mistakes doesn't mean they don't exist.
4) This guy doesn't know how to play Pyramid Head. First, you get close. If they are trying to loop around a pallet/window, plant your sword. If they drop/vault, hit them while stuck in the animation. If not, M1. He missed his first special attack and was much too far away when the Dwight vaulted the long wall. His first chase should have been over much more quickly.
5) The first 3 gens go quickly by design. It might feel bad to lose them, but the game should naturally slow after the first down. If you can't get a down by 2 gens left, you're having a bad game, and/or doing something wrong. Learn from the mistakes, and move on. Going into denial and demanding changes to a system you don't understand nor want to learn about isn't helpful.
6) Even with all this stuff going wrong he still got a 12 minute game and a kill out of it. Expecting to 4k with poop perks, a killer you don't know well, and a bad start to the match is unreasonable
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Well for starters the survivors spawn usually next to gens. True could have brought corrput intervention so no gens would have been worked on that fast. Then once he found them he could've used ruin to start regressing them. Gens are perfectly fine. True applied zero pressure to the other survivors to force them off of gens. What do you want them to do? Sit there and no do the objective 😑. Honestly true, zubat, and Scott jund all say gens are fine but you still link clips to complain about YOUR problem with them not theirs.
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1) So competent survivors should always 4E? not sure i see what you are getting at.
2) Name another build that would have made him not lose 3 gens in the first 1:45 seconds of the game. I can't, hell corrupt is the only thing that even stands a chance of doing that and even then that's not much.
3) Name the mistake he made, what i see, is someone who initiated a chase about as fast as they possibly could, make 1 small mistake that let the survivor get to the pallet, then played the harvester perfectly, then made an amazing read to get the second hit.
4) I'm pretty sure true knows how to play PH, hes got more hours in this game than probably most of the people in this thread combined.
5) Correct, and my point is that it is bad design. That is the entire point of this thread, it is bad design that an early game doesn't exist anymore.
6) Because at that point the survivors were messing around, and on top of that, this is true, he has like 5k+ hours in this game, if he DIDN'T recover i would have been surprised.
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It should not be required to bring a perk every single game, there is a reason that they changed ruin, because it was used in 80% of games. And there was a reason for that. Just switching that out for using corrupt every game is terrible design and highlights a problem.
Explain to me how he is supposed to "apply pressure" i'm tired of the jUsT pReSsUrE gEnS fOrEhEaD argument. You can't pressure 7 gens against 4 survivors who all spawn on 4 different gens. It's not possible.
All of the players you mentioned actually say the opposite whenever i watch them play. Hell, scott even brought up that something needs to be done and came up with the whole "early game warmup" idea to begin with, so obviously he doesn't think it's fine that early game doesn't exist, or he wouldn't suggest they fix it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVnWIe-5Lcs
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Eh complain about it ig the game isn't balanced around 4ks every match the devs even said that.
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Nice strawman, i never said that i expected the game to be 4ks or that it should be balanced around that.
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Totally agree with Gens literally you can't counter gen rushers you can chase them but they just gonna rush the same gen again or they gonna hide because they hear your heartbeat and go right back to the gen after you leave. They need to add something like F13 so you can trap the gens so you know when one's being worked on
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Killer need to stop thinking they have a early game this does not exist for the killer when i realise that i became a better killer with the best late game perk available for the killer
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This was just a poorly executed killer game. He made a lot of mistakes and gens got done with ease. Sometimes the survivors are just better than the killer as well. The game is hilariously easier for killers these days. They still come on here to complain about not getting their "deserved" 4k every game.
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How does ending the first chase by getting 2 hits with only 1 pallet thrown and no window vaults or loops equal a lot of mistakes.
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Another video true posted today where he analyzes the game and talks exactly about this kind of thing:
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People still posting tru3 videos in 2020 like it proves something
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I think part of the issue is simply Killers feel like they have to get four kills every game or they failed & Survivors feel like they have to escape or they failed.
It's really just a mentality. Like, if I don't de-pip, I feel I did fine. That's both sides.
To me at this point this game is just a Bloodpoint farming simulator. It's never going to be balanced. It's never going to be competitive. And its never tried to be.
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Tru3 isn't a good player. I'm not saying it to discredit him but in almost all of his videos he uploads he makes dumb plays and in this one he over committed to a survivor, so of course gens are going to fly.
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1v1 him bro.
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I see what you're saying about being satisfied with not depipping. i think it sucks when I get depipped by a game that is straight impossible to get more than 1 - 2 kills (meta 4man with object that sends you to a bs map). Game shouldn't depip you for that bs
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How did you get that from my post?
Each side should have a chance to come back but Billy is the one killer that can play extremely poorly all game and turn it around in an instant at any point in the trial. You shouldnt be able to cheese a victory.
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You forgot the part where he overcommitted to the First survivor who also took him BACK the same way he came from, meaning that all the patrolling he started to do he threw it out for that one survivor.
This is why if I don’t bring corrupt, I will hit someone and let them go. That causes them to have to make a choice whether to heal or work on a gen.
Clearly someone with as many hours as he has would get a feel for this, because it is something that is expected if you leave a big chunk of map without patrolling properly.
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I think the fact alone that we're counting seconds should make it obvious there's a serious problem with the game.
I swear they cut the gen speed in half when they nerfed ruin, and I mean they nerfed ruin AND cut down gen speeds.
I mean I've been having an easy time as survivor lately and I'm normally pretty bad at survivor.
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The survivor he chased had a medkit, if he left them they would have immediately healed and hopped on a gen. It would have taken him easily another 10-15 seconds to find another survivor. All that means is instead of having 3 gens gone, he would have had 2 gens gone and 1 at 90% and instead of having someone on the hook he only would have gotten 1 injured and another freshly healed from their medkit.
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And as I said, that would have wasted time regardless. Heal or work on a gen injured.
The turn was very obvious to me, maybe because I don’t do that. I (in my own playstyle) would have suspected the rest of the team would go on a gen because they saw an injured icon at the bottom. Effective teams will hop on a gen immediately. I don’t know about you but I would rather chase someone off a gen who has it over 50% progression over someone who has to heal and then wonder if it is safe enough to start on a gen.
That’s one of the gambles you take in this game. You can’t protect gens you didn’t even bother to patrol.
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Not nearly enough time. It is simple math. If he had stopped the first survivor and ran to patrol gens as soon as he hit them, by the time he found another survivor, that one would have healed. 2 other survivors would have finished and you would have 2 gens gone, then the one he was chasing wouldn't be on a gen sure, but their gen would have nearly been done. It is likely that the guy who just finished healing would have run to go finish it. It wouldn't have amounted to much.
The fact that the survivor had a medkit changes everything.
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It isn’t just simple math tho. It’s also making conscious decisions because if it was just simple math any survivor would finish the gen at it’s expected time without interruptions. Which was the case here, but it isn’t because of it being an inadequate speed, he overcommitted to that first survivor and the other survivors were split working on gens without a care in the world.
When you say “by the time he found another survivor...” that wouldn’t have taken time. They were on the gens he was originally going to during his initial path.
Which is what is weird to me. He is literally playing a killer who is brilliant at zoning people out but it looks to me like that Dwight zones HIM out. Sometimes I do that on purpose and killers catch on quick, and they leave (if they’ve been on a chase with me plenty). I just don’t get what is gen adequate speed anymore. Would 4 mins a gen be acceptable? At some point you have to wonder if acceptable means “enough time to correct my mistakes”.
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Pyramid head is not as strong as you think he is. Its easy to read him and double back and drop pallet on his head or if you judge his range you will know when you can vault a window and dodge a hit. If you play as him against red ranks you will realise that you cannot just zone them all the time. Holding W is a strong counter to him
Besides if he let the Dwight escape it's still 2 gens and possibly 3 and 3 people free to work on gens instead of 1 person if he's hooked, and no pressure whatsoever on survivors. I think he took the right choice. Maybe if the Dwight went past a survivor on a gen then it's good but then it's not upto the killer
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I have played as him against red ranks. That’s why I said what said above.
And even if you think a killer isn’t strong enough to down someone quick. You should never not bring slow down perks like corrupt if you don’t feel confident with them. He should have swapped Brutal with Corrupt.
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I've had games where survivors spawn together and bunch up on a single gen which is closest to me and I've had games where survivors spawn seperately on 3 different gens.
Efficiency of corrupt isn't based on skill. It's based on luck which means it's unpredictable whether or not it'll help you at all.
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Im a rank 8 killer because of DC and bad plays. this is the same ######### I face every game. This makes me HATE playing killer, no matter what I play. I get streamers berating me for playing Freddy, regulars for playing spirit, anyone for playing PH. I used to love playing killer, but this makes me hate it. This is so unhealthy nfor the game because why even play killer iF ALL THE MATCHES ARE THE SAME?
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You’re right. Corrupt isn’t suppose to give you efficiency, it gives you information. 1st ) More often than not, survivors spawn where the blocked gens are. 2nd) I use this one on Michael all the time and it is up to me to be efficient with that information I have. (I.e. where to look etc.)
I don’t know how you can say Corrupt is based on luck when it does what it’s supposed to. It is up to YOUR tracking abilities to take advantage of the information you are given. So there is still some skill involved. The reason I said it would have helped him is because of how he chose to go about patrolling gens. He practically didn’t even let them hear his TR. That’s not to say you should walk around the entire map before committing to someone, but being that this is early in the game and he chose to double back to where he started sort of tells me he wasn’t being aware of that.
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Sometimes the killer just makes a really bad play and they dont deserve to come back. but Billy always can, and he has that insane snowball potential from the beginning of the game.
This is literally what you wrote... how else is a person supposed to interpret that? 1 mistake from survivors, no big deal, I have crutches, 1 mistake from killers, they don't deserve to come back? Seems a little unfair especially at the beginning of a match, right?
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Still no seeing any discussion as to why gen rushing like this in the first 2 mins is allowed. its such boring killer gameplay.
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If the most OP killer in the whole game, that NEEDED to be nerfed into the ground, including addons and basekit - CANNOT contain this issue, then what hope do we mere mortals have?
Also, as I am not linking a tru3ta1ent clip, but one of the Saviour - I'm sure people will now focus on the issue being presented and NOT on the person who presents it, right? RIGHT?
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No, because they think that any streamer who plays this game literally as a job is apparently trash at the game.
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That’s not it at all. See this is the type of attitude that turns me off about some of the people who are fanboys/girls. You can’t expect people to really be like “Oh I agree with everything because said streamer said so”.
Thousands of hours doesn’t mean they know everything about the game or they are any better than people who have a different opinion and present said opinions.
Im sitting at over 4K hours with a devotion 16 and I don’t for one second pretend like I know everything. Nor do I expect people to think that of me. I do however, use my own judgement and experiences when expressing my view-points. Even though there are streamers I watch that share different opinions than me.
I think the whole “this video proves blah blah blah” is what people get tired of.
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The problem is this community has the opposite affect. Look at everyone here, we present some video evidence that shows maybe there is a problem, and generally a lot of people think there is, and whenever anyone posts evidence, they go "saw a true video, didn't watch" They literally see the popular streamer, and then ignore evidence solely because of who it comes from. A literal logical fallacy:
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Which is especially funny, because if someone who literally plays the game for a living is having trouble, how are normal people supposed to stand a chance?
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So you believe 1 mistake should cost you 3 generators while survivors get to make mistakes over and over and be mostly fine usually?
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I think part of the problem again, is that these videos more or less become “opinions”, when you start to see the way he plays.
You could virtually put somebody else in that same match with those same survivors and probably gotten a different result. Because yes, while gens popped fast, it is also evidenced that he could have made different choices. In terms of which perks he chose, which way he decided to patrol, who he chased and for how long. All those things matter in a match where you are responsible for applying pressure.
The only pressure you can apply in the beginning of a match is patrolling gens. You do not have a hook, or a down at that point.
No one is trying to discredit your argument but when (especially on these forums) it’s nothing but tru video after tru video, I think it leads one to believe if it’s just the fact that he has that many hours and so he is bound so see more of those matches because of it. I don’t know him personally but I don’t watch him. This is just the feeling I get from comments I have seen and the fact that like I said his videos are predominantly shown as “evidence” on here.
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