THIS is the problem with gen speeds and early game.
Early game doesn't exist and we have another great example of this that can't be refuted by "but they played badly" or "the killer's perks suck"
Take a look at this recent video from true:
Movement control in the match starts at about 5 seconds, so every timestamp is 5 seconds higher than the actual time in the game.
The match starts and he immediately runs to the other side of the map where the survivors likely are.
At 26 seconds in the video, he hears a gen being worked on
At 28 seconds, he spots the scratch marks
At 30 seconds he spots the survivor.
At 34 seconds, he makes a bad read, but the survivor plays badly and throws the pallet anyway.
At 37 seconds, he breaks the pallet, while the survivor runs to the harvester.
At 50 seconds, he does harvester tech, and lands a hit. The survivor holds w.
At 1 minute, 10 seconds, he catches up to the survivor and starts a chase.
At 1 minute, 15 seconds, he successfully mindgames the survivor and tries to bait the dead hard, but it doesn't come
At 1 minute, 18 seconds, he downs the survivor.
At 1 minute, 22 seconds, he picks up the survivor.
At 1 minute, 28 seconds, 1 gen pops.
At 1 minute, 32 seconds, he hooks the survivor, he runs over to the nearby gen that was completed and another in the field.
At 1 minute, 39 seconds, a second gen pops.
At 1 minute, 43 seconds, a third gen pops.
This goes with the thing i have been saying for months now about this game's problem with early game. The math doesn't add up.
21 seconds to find the first survivor and start a chase
24 seconds to land the first hit after making a 1 bad read and breaking a pallet.
20 seconds to catch up to the survivor to start a second chase.
8 seconds on a successful read to down the survivor.
4 seconds for attack cooldown and to pickup survivor.
10 seconds to hook a survivor.
21 + 24 + 20 + 8 + 4 + 10 = 87 seconds. Enough time for 3 gens if all the survivors hopped on a gen as soon as the match started.
This was not played badly. True played very well.
He found the first survivor almost as early as he possibly could have at the second gen he checked.
He made one bad read for the first chase that only added a few seconds since the survivor threw the pallet anyway (if the survivor played well they could have easily extended the chase an extra 15-20 seconds before using the pallet).
He made one great read for the second on that made the chase end in a couple of seconds.
At this point, the game goes downhill from here. True holds his own because he has like 5k hours in this game so of course he is going to do well, but most of the survivors end up escaping regardless.
EDIT: 07/27/2020
True posted a new video where he plays a game. (yes he gets a 4k, again that isn't the point, besides one of the survivors just immediately gave up anyway). He analyzes the gameplay and talks about the time it takes to do these things and is exactly right about how long it takes to do things.
Comments
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For this reason, I hardly play as killer anymore lol
22 -
He literally made a critical mistake the first minute of the match by committing to the dude holding W instead of patrolling.
22 -
The amount of time he spent going after that guy was also partially patrolling because he was near gens, on top of that the total time spent was 28 seconds. It would have likely taken him another 15 seconds alone just to abandon and find a different survivor to chase. Which means instead of a hook he would have gotten 2 survivors injured, 2 gens completed, and 1 gen nearly complete (>90%). Not much of a difference.
The guy he was chasing also had a medkit, so if he left him alone he would have spent ~15 seconds healing himself, wasting about 40 seconds of his time to gain 15. So likely he would have abandoned chase, found another guy on a gen, injured them in the same time he took to down the first and would end up with 1 injured, 1 freshly healed, 2 gens gone, and one at 90%. So no, abandoning that chase would have been the mistake.
35 -
Yet your math doesn't make sense. So it takes 87 seconds for 3 survivors to finish 3 gens despite the fact he wasted 20 seconds to catch up to someone running in the open? In those 15 seconds he could've found another survivor and denied a generator from being repaired.
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That's my point. So if instead of continuing the chase, lets say he went for another survivor and patroled.
The guy he was chasing would have started healing himself, he would have found a guy working on a gen that was almost done, probably around 80-90%. He would have likely injured that guy, and then those other 2 gens would have popped.
So he would have.
1 Injured survivor
1 Freshly healed
2 gens done
1 gen at 90%
I don't see how that is a better situation then
1 survivor on hook
3 gens done.
Both situations are extremely terrible. And prove that early game doesn't exist.
46 -
gen are to fast only people say they not most likely just play survivor don't care.
14 -
Gens are a problem yes, but if we want to fix gens we should fix camping and tunneling too.
Btw you could take a better example, tru3 did a really big mistake at early game (typical of him) and then wonders why gen pop like crazy
3 -
Lol knew it would be this game from earlier before I opened the thread.
Actual gameplay starts 4 seconds in, 3rd gen pops at 1:44 so 1 minute and 40 seconds for 3 gens. That means the extra 20 seconds were likely the survivors running to seperate generators.
Its not good. I feel the map is part of the problem. Rotten Fields has never been a good map. I thought they were shrinking it? It seems just as big as ever. Anyway so you have a huge map where the gens are spread out and then you have corn everywhere so you can’t see what gens are being worked on from a distance.
I don’t get why some people turn their nose up at Corrupt Intervention. That would have massively helped here. Based on how quick that went I would guess survivors started on the far gens, corrupt would have locked them off and forced the survivors inwards, which I feel would have changed the start of this game a lot.
Yeah the devs say they expect early gens to go fast but losing gens like this theres only really Billy or Nurse that can come back from that or a strong campy Hag game.
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Ah yes, waste your time chasing the survivor that got distance instead of patrolling.
3 -
I've always been of the mind that the game doesn't truly start for The Killer until there are only 2 gens left
Any damage I can do prior to those first 3 gens going off is just a handicap in my favor. There's just no realistic way to patrol and guard that many gens so your job as the killer at the beginning is figure out where everything is, get a down or two if you can, and try to herd the survivors into doing the gens that you want them to do (for example, I will stay in an area where I think I can get them to three gen themselves and just let them those far outside gens).
Once you get to two gens, that's when the killers job to defend the gens begins
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######### dude you were complaining about billy and now you think billy is the only killer able to do a comeback on this situation?
Why the change of heart? did you got called survivor main and want to change your reputation here? 😂
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Maybe, but what would have probably happened is that survivor he had been chasing would have simply gotten on a gen. If it was one that hadnt been started yet then 2 gens would have popped by the time he got his first down with another popping shortly after.
And is that really a good defense anyway? 1 mistake costs you the entire game? How many mistakes are those survivors allowed to have?
Sorry but this was a poor excuse
36 -
This was a case of “killer was kind of screwed in this situation”.
Sometimes the killer just makes a really bad play and they dont deserve to come back. but Billy always can, and he has that insane snowball potential from the beginning of the game.
Basically I feel this is more of an issue with this map and I would guess likely swf. Solos dont separate on gens like that.
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Bro, Billy and Nurse are dead and no one will use them anymore. So they don't count anymore
3 -
Nurse.....is awkward but theres no denying that someone with a lot of hours on Nurse could come back. So long as they dont have corn blindness.
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kinda, but billy got nerfed too much, spirit or freddy really need a look at.
Probably this is a map problem, a good solo team will be able to do this
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-interested in post because of title
-click on post to read
-see truetalent used as example
-leave post
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And people thought I was exaggerating when I said some games you flat out have to give up 4 gens because of the map spawn and there's nothing you can do about it.
9 -
Maybe it’s just me but I always saw Billy as a bigger problem than Spirit.
Freddy aint that bad hes just dull and needs a few tweaks.
1 -
corn map alway been a problem these weren't solo.
1 -
You still didn’t answer;
how is :
1 survivor injured
1 just healed
2 healthy survivors
2 gens done
1 gen at 90%
better than :
1 hook
3 healthy
3 gens done
Post edited by BlueskyNew on11 -
"but if we want to fix gens we should fix camping and tunneling too."
<rant>
Ok, ######### this mentality. If there is a problem that needs to be solved, then there is a problem that needs to be solved. Solving one problem is not a pre-requisite for solving another unless they are literally directly linked to each other, which gen rush and tunneling are not.
This kind of reasoning naturally leads into the claim (which I know you haven't made but) "Before we solve X problem we need to solve Y problem". But then because then the opposite claim gets made and instead of moving onto solutions everyone yells at each other about problems.
If gen rush is a problem then gen rush should be solved. Period.
If tunneling is a problem then tunneling should be solved. Period.
Solving gen rush does not suddenly mean we need to fix tunneling. We either already needed to solve it anwyays, or we still don't have to. They are casually linked. And fixing tunneling is not a prerequisite for fixing gen rush. A world with tunneling and not gen rush is still better than a world with both. Same goes for keys and mori's, you remove both because they both should be removed on their own merits, not because you removed the other and want to appease the karmatic balance of the universe or something.
Camping isn't quite the same story since gen rush is the counter to camping, but even then that's only a problem for specific gen rush solutions. So until you've moved onto proposing solutions there is no reason to bring up camping in a gen rush thread.
Just take the problems one at a time, and don't use other problems as an excuse to not solve the other ones.
</rant>
27 -
This is what we call a "Whataboutism"
Instead of addressing the problem you just say "what about x" I think all of these things should be fixed.
13 -
nah my dude, they both are linked to each other, if you fix or increase gen speed you're basically buffing camping and tunneling.
What about you accept facts
2 -
There are many matches as killer that simply aren't winnable unless you're on certain maps, using a certain set of killers. That isn't good design.
12 -
This is pretty common unless you have corrupt intervention. But even then, depending on the map and RNG it might only buy you another 30~ seconds or so before all 4 survivors find a gen; which is why I have mostly stopped using it.
Assuming the survviors are good, you can spend 20-30 seconds finding someone, 30 seconds getting them down, and then by the time you hook them the first gen pops and the second one pops shortly after.
I pretty much respond to a genrush like that by tunneling and camping the heck out of everyone who goes on hook, and have mostly given up slowdown perks on the weaker killers for one's that let me focus people down faster.
How much do you think pop goes would do in a situation like that? Almost nothing. I'd much prefer something like endfury to eat a DS and then kill the guy off as fast as possible to make it a 3v1.
When the game is on track to be over in 4-5 minutes I don't think anyone should complain about the killer playing like that. There's only a handful of killers you can play that can handle current gen speeds without having to resort to playing like a total scumbag if the survivors are not afraid to do gens.
4 -
i agree.
7 -
I hope they work on early game, make it balanced for both sides.
7 -
I guess with the new mm, devs will be able to know more easily what is the balance problem.
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People who could see the frustration of these scenarios have been saying this since people started complaining about survivors doing co-op gens quickly: if the survivors split up and work on three different gens they will win, as long as the fourth survivor can last long enough. And since at the start of the game survivors have maximum resources, any survivor with more than a handful of hours should be able to last long enough. I’d much rather have 3 or 4 survivors piling on one gen early game.
I really don’t see what any killer can do to stop 3 survivors on 3 gens. Even if you get a fast down, it’s not like they have to unhook instantly. You can’t abandon every chase that lasts longer than 10 seconds. And you can only be in one place at a time. Even mobile killers struggle.
15 -
Yeah, the problem has never been survivors doing the same gen together, it's when they split up that it's a problem.
2 -
All the nay sayers on here chiming in. It's simple, it's not good design for 3/5 of your goal to be accomplished in 1 minute and 50 seconds. To put this in perspective would anybody be ok with a killer that could whip out 7 hooks in 1 minute 50 seconds? That would be a hook every 15 seconds....
6 -
Lol, you can't possibly believe that. Abandoning the chase would have been incredibly stupid. First off, its rotten fields, so just getting to another gen is going to take more time than he "wasted", the survivor is going to dip at the first sound of the terror radius, putting just as much distance as the guy he would have left, he had nothing like ruin, so the one gen he pressured wouldn't regress.
Stop to kick the gen and you waste even more time, and it's likely that someone will be right back on, including the guy he abandoned. Sooner or later, you have to commit to a chase, might as well be on the injured person.
Even assuming that he did make a mistake, which he didn't, why should one mistake cost you the entire match?
9 -
i think he is trolling.
2 -
We really need this early game "collaspe" that the dev mentioned asap as it is getting frustrating that one chase can cost you 2 to 3 gens and puts you right on the backfoot even if it was a short chase.
3 -
Its interesting that one of the survivors (highest points) at the in the post game chat says 'this game is so busted'.
3 -
This just shows how strong survivors are when they're seperated. Literally you cannot apply pressure to them in this scenerio. That's why survivors are mostly spawning together in the trial, at least they can do 2 gens in 80 seconds than 3.
I'm kinda surprised that SWF are not using shroud of seperation. In this state, it would be meta.
4 -
Otzdarva made a good point. A number of "gen rush" videos take place on this map. It is commonly the safest map whenever the stats are posted. It's like the opposite of Hawkins.
2 -
I try to do that with my swf buds, but damn it is really hard to be extremely coordinated
2 -
It is hard, but it's propably the best way to win the game though.
1 -
Yeah I agree, I think they could fix this by making maps more smaller BUT they should nerf a bit high mobility killer
1 -
Maybe the new coming feature that is similar with EGC will help in this. I personally don't think that maps are the problem, it would be good if on some maps the gens could be spawned closer together or maybe an early game objectives different than gens, idk.
0 -
I think a early game objective would be better tbh
1 -
He played like #########, where is this a good example? Watch Scottjund destroy ppl with m1 speedlimiter bubba if you want to watch somebody play near perfect, true is garbage considering the hours he puts into this game, it feels like he's burned out and bored of dbd but it's basically his job to play it.
Heck go look at dowsey who keeps statistics of his games.
1 -
This is exactly one of the main issues with DBD rn. The objective requires little to no boldness and is too fast to complete. I tried to make a rework concept to remedy this, but didn't get much traction.
1 -
Yet again, another post showcasing that people have no clue what pressure is. You have literally spelled out the massive issue all you boosted players have as killer: you hard commit to the first survivor you find. When really, he should be hitting them, seeing that they're just holding W and should switch focus back to the gen areas he knows people are in.
You cannot complain that early game and gen speed are too unfair for killers when you're using examples of, and most likely doing so yourself, bad gameplay - ie wasting your time trackig a survivor across the map. Ever heard of gen pressure, love? It isn't a myth nor a meme people sheep that it is, it's something good players execute and exhibit frequently and consistently in their killer matches.
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The devs will have a lot of explaining to do if they add a hardship at the beginning of a match when the average killrate is already well over 60%. This means they are abandoning their 50% killrate goal and balancing heavily towards killers. The endgame is already killer sided so the beginning shouldn't be changed, especially when the killrates are so high.
1 -
I'm hoping the devs are working on this early game phase they were talking about. I'm hoping it at least helps killers in the early game.
3 -
So are ppl arguing that one mistake from a killer resulting in a three gen pop is ok?
I didn’t really read all this.
2 -
Yes, as if we don't get punished enough for missing a hit, chasing a survivor for a bit too long, for not baiting a Dead Hard, for accidentally hitting the hooked survivor instead of attempting to grab the survivor who's unhooking him.
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