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The REAL Balance problem in DBD
Greetings all,
As I am sure anyone who has played this game at least once will know, DBD (like any asymmetric game) is plagued by problems relating to the balance of their game. Whilst it is substantially better than it has been in the past, most people would probably agree that many killers find themselves falling short in the higher ranks. Many people will suggest that the reason for this are survivors - that some of their perks are too strong (looking at you self-care) and the constant debate over the whole SWF situation. Whilst these arguments may be true to a certain extent, I believe the reason for why so few killers are consistently viable at higher ranks is not just the fault of survivor balance but also the fault of killer balance.
Within higher ranks there are two killers who reign supreme - Billy and Nurse. Both of the killers are very powerful, even without add-ons. Let's take a look at both of them and determine why they are so good.
Billy - Chainsaw provides the ability to apply insane map pressure. He can in a matter of seconds make the fact that you are on the other side of the map irrelevant, a feat few other killers can claim. This ability alone is arguably better than the entirety of the wraiths kit. Why bother being stealthy when you can just zoom around the map for free. However, this is not all. Billy also has the ability to instadown any survivors fairly easily. Whilst mildly situational (due to windows and the like), it not only allows players to halve the amount of hits to end a chase and to bypass dead hard but also to close ground due to the acceleration of the boost, like a super lunge. On top of this he has base 115% movement speed. With these factors combined, Billy is capable of abusing the hizzozzle out of perks like BBQ (which is a good perk as is) and other aura reading perks.
Nurse - Has the ability to warp all over the place. It is a very powerful tool for providing map coverage and the resulting pressure generated from such an ability. In addition to this, in a chase blinks can be used to completely bypass windows, pallets and even entire floors of a building. This allows a good player to completely bypass a fundamental aspect of the game - the chase. Like Billy, she has the ability to turn BBQ into a god tier perk due to being able to act instantly upon this information. Combined with her ability to drastically shorten chases by ignoring obstacles and perks like Make Your Choice (the downside of which is completely negated by the Blink), the Nurse is undisputed the supreme Queen of DBD.
Now that we have established why these killers are good, we can now look at why they are the part of the reason why killers as a whole remain in a state requiring constant buffing. The problem is that people compare other killers to these two and are disappointed when they don't compare. For example, the Spirit has been condemned by many people for having a power that is less useful than Billy. Nurse and to a lesser extent Billy should NOT be the killers people use a yardstick for killer balance. No amount of balancing will ever make killers without mobility abilities even half as useful as ones that do. I have no objections to the notion of killers with mobility abilities, but in the case of Nurse and Billy, they also have another ability (or use thereof) that allows them to also have a huge bonus in chases.
I think that for baseline killers, like Pig, Trapper, Doc, or Wraith to be useful we need to nerf Nurse and Billy to a stage where they are just as good as most other killers before we can give other killers the buff they need.
P.S. I almost exclusively play killer.
Comments
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Agreed, bringing them down to baseline can only help the game in the long run, devs can then balance survivors around all 14 killers in place of how well survivors with certain perks do against the two "viable" ones, I'd like all killers and survivors to be fun to play as and against no matter what rank. It's no secret the only reason people bring sprint-burst, d-strike, borrowed time, self-care or adrenaline is because they are the only perks that can extend chases in high ranks, however they just lead to abuse against killers who cannot one-shot easily where a chase without nurses blinks or billys chainsaw turn into 3 gens popping without even getting a hook thanks to decisive. With them more in line survivors perks can get tweaked to make every killer viable and no survivor able to run circles for 3 minutes.
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Honestly I've not REALLY compared Spirit to Nurse. She's more akin to an odd love child between Hag, Wraith, and Pig. My issue I've had with her is that her positives really don't justify all the negatives she has when compared to the three she's most similiar to. Honestly the three listed above in my comment are vastly superior to her, especially Wraith due to the most recent patch.
But back on topic. I play a bit of survivor in addition to killer. I've seen plain as day the massive difference in someone that has decent skill with the two killers you mentioned and people who have mastered them. Against true blue masters of those killers the best you can hope to do is get two generators done and find the hatch before they do because either only one of you is getting out or none of you are.2 -
Please stop trying to nerf killers. You guys already gutted Freddy.
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I read your post and the whole basis was good but then all of a sudden you think the Devs need nerf the only 2 viable killers just to buff the others? That's where I question your logic. Tbh, I completely disagree with the route that your presented in your thesis on the game's balance. In my personal beliefs, I feel the way to fix the balance isn't to attack the symptoms of the imbalance but the disease of imbalance itself.
So far this game is balanced in favor of survivors in the three main scenarios; chases, objectives, and time.
In chases, the survivors have the upper hand due to pallets and the number of them, their hitboxes being smaller and thus being able to be used to almost fully negate the killer's movement speed, and even due to the maps and their overall design with certain areas being heavily influenced to favor the survivor over the killer.
In the objective category, the survivors have the upper hand substantially. The survivors only have 7 total objectives with the 5 generators and the 2 doors split amongst 4 people. The killer has 3 objectives for each survivor due to having to hook them 3 times each, 5 more objectives with defending the generators, and if you wanna count guarding the doors, 2 more objectives on top of that. So let's do the math. 3 hooks for 4 survivors equals 12 objectives, then add the 5 for defending the gens which is 17 objectives and then add the 2 for the doors which in total adds to 19 objectives for 1 person to manage which in terms, explains why killer is much more stressful than survivor.
Now let's take into account the time category. Each generator takes like 80 seconds (I never took the time to learn the exact number but I digress) without an item/addon or perk setup (like Leader) assisting and that's to fully complete the generator/objective while for killer, it can take longer than 2 minutes to just hook a survivor once. So in other words, the survivors get 1/7 objectives completed in the time it takes for the killer to get 1/19 objectives completed. Now remember, those 7 objectives are split between 4 people who can work on the generators simultaneously while the killer is left with themselves to do just that 1 objective which again adds to the overall stress of playing killer.
Now with those points I put on the table, it surprises me that no one thinks about it this way because what I stated IS the core of the imbalance; not perks, not addons, and not killer powers. For years I've thought about this issue and yet no one, not even the devs, seem to think about it from this angle which has baffled me for so long. I honestly do not know why people seem to try to treat the symptoms over the disease itself. Now if this were to be fixed (which is possible btw), that's when the devs should focus on the characters and map changes and all that.
Post edited by CallMeRusty420 on12 -
So, you nerf the only 2 viable killers and expect the other killers to suddenly be competitive on high ranks?
Go ahead. See how that turns out.
My prediction: a "matchmaking error" for survivors above rank 10. Estimated time to find a match = 45+ minutes14 -
Or, instead of nerfing the two most viable Killers. We nerf all Survivor viable perks and loops and that will bring all the other Killers up instead? To me that is the mirror effect or what you just suggested, Survivors do not want that, so obviously Killers would not want this suggestion.
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Nerf the only two viable killers and you gonna kill the game.
The devs are aware of that, so that will never happen.I just wish that they could add more killers to that pool because seeing the same 2 killers over and over in a game with 13 killers is kinda pathetic, but I guess the devs are too scared which is quite sad
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If you take away Billy and Nurse you kill the game.... people need to understand that you can say "this game is supposed to be about having fun" well how do you think the killer is going to have fun? You're putting 4 people up against that player and if that player doesnt have the tools to get the job done how is that fun? Billy and Nurse are the tip of the spear huntress follows shortly behind and hag may have some say but behind them it's only a matter of killers not having enough time to get around the map asap like Billy and nurse do... the rest of the crew need to be brought up to where Billy is and Nurse needs to stay where she is where when a player matters her their rewarded with what she is in the game.. if there is no reward to getting better at killer why would anyone play killer? Hag is restricted.. less then she used to be but still restricted... below her every killer is restricted with hard skill cap meaning you cant do anything better once you've mastered them... Billy, Nurse and Huntress you can significantly get better at and become a force which is what killers want they wanna get rewarded for practicing and playing not get punished..
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You chose one heck of a topic for your first post, eh? @Daddy_Myers
The main balance problem is not rooted in any killer's abilities, all of the killer's abilities have potential that can be used to kill. The lack of balance comes from the sheer number of second chances that survivors have.
In every game, survivors receive more knowledge to work with than the killer. For starters, the killer's identity is usually given away within the first minute of play through the following ways:
- Standard Macmillan brand bear traps spawn in the level so you can stumble across an unset trap before ever hearing the heartbeat.
- The Wraith has signature Bell and "Whoosh" noises that reveal his presence
- The Hillbilly has a chainsaw that is identifiable due to the sudden volume change of the terror radius
- Nurse screams in agony when she blinks
- The Huntress hums a lullaby
- Myers has his jingles
- Freddy has a lullaby in addition to his own unique status effect in the HUD (that poor, poor killer)
- The Doctor can make someone scream
- Leatherface has a chainsaw with a consistent terror radius
- The Pig has her trap icons in the HUD as well as a roar
- The Hag's traps make a unique noise that's audible when triggered, even by others
- Even the Spirit's Haunting makes a distinct noise at a distance
The only killer that can actually hide their identity for a short while is the freaking Clown. (Unless he throws his bottles around willy-nilly.)
This rapid discovery enables survivors to quickly begin planning counter-strategies to escape the killer which by itself is harmless, but when they are given as many chances as they are it becomes absurd.
In scenarios where killers lack a power or add-on to instantly down a survivor, it will take 2 hits to down a survivor. Keep in mind that the first hit will give them a speed boost for a short bit. Assuming that you can catch the survivor and hook them (which with some help they can escape and deny hook attempts) they still have an extra life if they are saved before the second stage of the sacrifice hits. So if we ignore pallets and survivor perks and assume that you are successfully reaching the hook, a survivor that is only rescued and not healed has 7 chances to escape the killer: 2 hits to go down initially, and 2 more hits to go down while injured after their next saves. They will also need to be hooked 3 times. Assuming that the chases last approximately 30 seconds per hit, it will take roughly 2 minutes to chase a survivor that is never healed to their death. While this may sound manageable let me remind you that this is assuming that you are finding this one survivor repeatedly as you still will need to initially find this person and then keep track of them for the remainder of the trial. However, since they will be injured after the initial hook, their groans should reveal them in most circumstances. Just by adding "Self Care" to the equation and letting them heal after each hook you add a full minute to the amount of time it takes you to kill them (now 3 minutes for 1 kill versus 2.) Keep in mind that efficient generator repairs result in matches lasting only 3-5 minutes. According to these formulas, in the event that survivors use no perks (2:00), you can successfully kill just 1 person if the survivors optimize generator repairs and you can get 2 kills if the survivors are sloppy. Since the developers are supposedly balancing around 2 kills being a fair average, this is actually okay, but then again, the survivors have no perks in this scenario. Just by adding "Self Care" you will now only get 1 kill. Technically you will get a portion of a second kill which may round up to 2 kills if you can successfully camp the second person. (Which since only "Self Care" is being used you should be able to do, more often than not.) So with just "Self Care" there is a difference between 2 people dying and only 1 person dying. I want you to keep in mind that pallets were not included in this math as due to their randomly generated nature it would be hard to calculate. Additionally other perks, such as the exhaustion perks that lengthen chases were also not used.
Adding in a single pallet loop (the survivor makes one full circle and then drops the pallet.) will add roughly 10 seconds to the chase (best case scenario). If a survivor uses a loop before every hit they extend the total time until death by 40 seconds for someone who can't seem to get healed (2:40 total) or 60 seconds for someone who gets healed after each hook (4:00 total). As long as the other survivors effectively repair generators you can now escape the 3:00 death timer from earlier, provided you aren't camped. This scenario requires that the survivor uses a loop only once, and that the killer can quickly hit them after the pallet is dropped (or as it is dropped). In real matches, this isn't always the case, as has been made clear by footage of certain individuals looping killers for 2 minutes or more sometimes before they are hooked the first time. This herein lies the problem, all killers, excluding the Nurse (and sometimes the Huntress) have to suffer through loops.
This is why we see the Nurse, Hillbilly, and Huntress as "top tier". The Nurse, as you stated: ", . . . allows a good player to completely bypass a fundamental aspect of the game - the chase." (Daddy_Myers) This is also why the Hillbilly's speed and instadown ability earn him second place, he can bypass extra loops by instadowning a survivor, negating upwards of 40 seconds of a chase on a successful chainsaw hit. The only killer to come near these 2 is the Huntress who's powerful hatchets can be thrown over most loops (Excluding boulder and "Autohaven" truck loops.)
You say that the 2 to tier killers need to be nerfed, I say you're wrong and here's why:
- The majority of killers are too weak to properly stop a team of coordinated survivors.
- Survivors won't stand for nerfs to themselves.
If you nerf the top two killers and balance survivors around them, then you will have to nerf survivors at some point which will cause mass complaints until the devs refuse to go through with any nerfs resulting in even more unbalanced survivors. I say, buff all killers to the Nurse and Hillbilly's level, then buff survivors accordingly in small concentrated areas.
I'm eager to hear your feedback on this.
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Yeah, nerfing Billy and Nurse would be the quickest route to total disaster.
At that point, survivors would have total control over the game.
No, what this game needs is a big change to the core mechanics.
Namely, looping and gen rushing need to be addressed.
I would suggest that looping be heavily limited in its use. Survivors shouldn't be able to rely on looping alone.
Instead, add more stealth and juke mechanics to make chases more skill based.As for gen rushing, a moderate increase in objective time is all that is needed.
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Nah. Nurse and Billy do not need to be nerfed. Not every killer is going to be viable at a higher rank. Obviously a Nurse at Rank 1 is gonna be better than Freddy or Wraith. The design of the Wraith’s ability is NEVER going to be on par with The Nurse and that is what people fail to realize. Wraith will NEVER be on The Nurse or Billy’s level, he will always be a low rank killer due to his design. Huntress and Myers are the next viable killers at higher rank and can be used quite well. Instead of the same ol’ “nerf this and buff that” argument, what really needs to be addressed is map designs and chases. Survivors need a better chance at losing chases and breaking line of sight and possibly while you are in a chase the scratch marks disappear quicker than out of a chase. While killers need to deal with less loops.
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To nerf nurse or billy you need to buff survivor stealth as of now being a stealthy survivor sucks arse especially since all the survivor stealth perks besides maybe iron will or urban evasion are complete dog dung. I love BBQ to death and there is nothing better than teleporting through a wall because you can see someone healing and gut them like a fish but the main reason why survivors rather loop is because stealth sucks and is boring. Plus there is also an emblem rank for being near the killer that should really be turned into a stealth emblem but eh i dont think they will improve survivor stealth any time soon. And since looping is so meta due to sucky stealth you need killers to counter it i dont agree with nurse nerfs but hey thats only me. As of now the only way for a survivor to survive is to loop because hiding just isnt a clear option. But if they make stealth fun i believe it will null out looping especially if they make a stealth emblem and reward you for being stealthy in return nurfing the top tier killer will be justified. But until then i dont see it happening.
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Nerfing two of the games top predators is going to gut the killers side and kill the game.
There are three major issues with the game:
1. Survivors can extend a chase for far too long with optimal routing and efficient use of pallets.
2. Survivors have a significant number of second chances that are somewhat bypassed by a mori. (Eliminating a survivor after only being hooked once is a massive boost to the killer but doesn't necessarily constitute a victory condition for the killer)
3. Generators being the single objective of victory and are also rather quick to finish is the absolute biggest issue with the game because it's the thing that determines how much time the killer has to work with.
Now for the first point, a potential fix is to change the hitbox so that looping is less efficient at reducing the different in movespeed. Also reducing the number of pallets and adding more objects or hiding spots to encourage people to juke and avoid the killer, rather than just running them around like it's a game of follow me. Chases last too long for the amount of time killers have to do their job. Also fixing loosing bloodlust when you shouldn't would help.
The second point would be helped somewhat by the previous fix as chases would be shorter overall.
The third point is by far the biggest issue. At low ranks, survivors will be lucky to do all gens within a 5 minute window, in fact it's not uncommon for all 5 gens to take upwards of 10 minutes because low ranks play scared, and really inefficiently. However at mid-high ranks, without Hex: Ruin games generally last no more than 5 minutes, 3 at best because of just how optimal survivors are.
Adding more generators to complete or increasing the time to complete will not fix anything, low ranks already struggle with getting gens done, it'll just kill the low rank audience, and make high ranks more boring. What the game needs is either objectives to complete that either connect the to be conpleted/completed gens with a central power source or the exit gates. Something else that requires the player to do or find something to go towards that goal of escaping. Other ideas are fuel for the generators, or actual parts or even finding switches to throw. The community has no end of ideas and would be more than happy to help them test them on the ptb. (It would very likely be something that would fill the ptb better than a new chapter. I would personally much rather them do an overhaul of the games core mechanics rather than new content.
I meme it, but doing Dead by Daylight: Operation health would be incredible for the game. Stabilizing the fps on all platforms (console needs at least a stable 30fps) improving the games core systems to be more reliable, plus changing and adding objectives and improving the killers who need a boost. (Not all killers need to be rank 1 viable, Wraith for example will probably never be rank 1 material but making their gameplay better for the killer would be huge) I mean given that their income isn't necessarily tied to chapter releases anymore, they have more wiggle room to perform an Operation Health.
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Buff all killers to the level Billy and nurse are and we have an asymetric horror game. Maybe tone nurse down but billy is perfect.3
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I think people misunderstand what I was trying to suggest. I wholeheartedly agree that there need to be MANY Balance changes to DBD to fix the big gap between killers and survivors. I agree with the notion that if the devs nerfed Nurse and Billy right now that the game would be terrible and survivors would run riot even more so than they do already. I also agree that perks such as Self-Care and Decisive Strike are very poorly balanced and need to be toned down, I hate them as much as the next guy. However, I was more suggesting as a long run change.
Let's assume that the devs buff killers in general to the point where a relatively vanilla killer (ie, Trapper) is somewhat viable at high ranks without relying on a huge stack of misplays by the survivors. If this were the case then the game would be terrible for the opposite reason. Nurse and Billy are only 'viable' because they are the most poorly balanced killers. They are the least bad. If a normal killer was viable (not saying a 4k every game, but to have at least a decent chance to 2K) then Billy and Nurse would be super OP.
"But wait! What if all killers were buffed to Billy or Nurse status?" I hear you exclaim. Exactly how would an M1 killer like Trapper, Doc, Leatherface or Wraith be buffed to that status without completely redesigning all their kits entirely to give them more pressure. That being said, I am not a game designer so I am sure some smarter person out there has probably thought of a solution.
What I am suggesting is that for most killers to be collectively buffed to be viable, we need to make sure they are all LOOSELY around the same power level, otherwise a balance to help the common killer will make the already good ones even more busted (meaning people will play them). I understand that there will always be imbalance in a game like this, I never expect Freddy to be the best choice in the game, but for killers as a whole to be buffed in any meaningful way that isn't just going to make the game unfun for the other party, we need killers to be the same strength. If
@Peasant It is an interesting point you make regarding looping. If looping was removed or toned down, or some other alternative introduced it may tone down the necessity to play these killers. I hadn't really considered this.
Also, I was thinking about this more as an ideal. I was assuming that the devs can make whatever changes they like (irrespective of community backlash) and could get away with nerfing the obviously broken survivor perks. I realise now that this was a pretty stupid assumption to make as even one look at the balance history would have told me otherwise. The proposed Self-Care change I found to be pretty good (SC would still have been a staple perk), but people claimed that SC was fine as is. I understand now that following my approach absolutely would be bad as survivors would not receive their nerfs well (as always). In spite of this, I still hold that Nurse and Billy need to be nerfed. I also think that most killers need to be buffed as well. I think there is a line of balance between most killers and Nurse and Billy.
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I think the issue with balance in general is the difficulty to balance the game in terms of skill cap. There is a pretty big difference between low rank vs high rank players and balancing for one tends to screw the other. If you balance for the young survivor the elder exploits the system. IF you make the game balanced toward more experienced survives young survives get wiped out with out a chance to learn. Further the power of the killer should = 4 survives, but the gap between solo players vs SWF is huge enough that balancing for one again unbalances the other. DBD suffers from the fact it does not want new game modes, it can't balance ranking to be meaningful, and the very one dimension of the game with so many variables leaves a logistic nightmare to correctly implement a true balance... because again... so many gaps between groups.
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Nerfing the killers with the best abilities won't do much good. Buffing killers with sub-par abilities won't do much good either. If these buffs and nerfs were put into effect, survivors would be more powerful than ever.
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@Daddy_Myers said:
Greetings all,As I am sure anyone who has played this game at least once will know, DBD (like any asymmetric game) is plagued by problems relating to the balance of their game. Whilst it is substantially better than it has been in the past, most people would probably agree that many killers find themselves falling short in the higher ranks. Many people will suggest that the reason for this are survivors - that some of their perks are too strong (looking at you self-care) and the constant debate over the whole SWF situation. Whilst these arguments may be true to a certain extent, I believe the reason for why so few killers are consistently viable at higher ranks is not just the fault of survivor balance but also the fault of killer balance.
Within higher ranks there are two killers who reign supreme - Billy and Nurse. Both of the killers are very powerful, even without add-ons. Let's take a look at both of them and determine why they are so good.
Billy - Chainsaw provides the ability to apply insane map pressure. He can in a matter of seconds make the fact that you are on the other side of the map irrelevant, a feat few other killers can claim. This ability alone is arguably better than the entirety of the wraiths kit. Why bother being stealthy when you can just zoom around the map for free. However, this is not all. Billy also has the ability to instadown any survivors fairly easily. Whilst mildly situational (due to windows and the like), it not only allows players to halve the amount of hits to end a chase and to bypass dead hard but also to close ground due to the acceleration of the boost, like a super lunge. On top of this he has base 115% movement speed. With these factors combined, Billy is capable of abusing the hizzozzle out of perks like BBQ (which is a good perk as is) and other aura reading perks.
Nurse - Has the ability to warp all over the place. It is a very powerful tool for providing map coverage and the resulting pressure generated from such an ability. In addition to this, in a chase blinks can be used to completely bypass windows, pallets and even entire floors of a building. This allows a good player to completely bypass a fundamental aspect of the game - the chase. Like Billy, she has the ability to turn BBQ into a god tier perk due to being able to act instantly upon this information. Combined with her ability to drastically shorten chases by ignoring obstacles and perks like Make Your Choice (the downside of which is completely negated by the Blink), the Nurse is undisputed the supreme Queen of DBD.
Now that we have established why these killers are good, we can now look at why they are the part of the reason why killers as a whole remain in a state requiring constant buffing. The problem is that people compare other killers to these two and are disappointed when they don't compare. For example, the Spirit has been condemned by many people for having a power that is less useful than Billy. Nurse and to a lesser extent Billy should NOT be the killers people use a yardstick for killer balance. No amount of balancing will ever make killers without mobility abilities even half as useful as ones that do. I have no objections to the notion of killers with mobility abilities, but in the case of Nurse and Billy, they also have another ability (or use thereof) that allows them to also have a huge bonus in chases.
I think that for baseline killers, like Pig, Trapper, Doc, or Wraith to be useful we need to nerf Nurse and Billy to a stage where they are just as good as most other killers before we can give other killers the buff they need.
P.S. I almost exclusively play killer.
By nerfing another killer, a certrain killer like trapper e.g. wont become usefull suddenly. You would need to nerf survivors at the same time to make that happen and if this is not done, then the high rank gameplay will be very odd (if it exists at all anymore).
Btw, in order to make killers like trapper viable against competent SWF, survivors would need a drastic nerf
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Smh, no one thinks of the real issue. Problem solving 101, let's work backwards.
Billy and nurse top tier due to map pressure and strong chase game, but mostly map pressure. They will always be top tier so them being the top isn't the issue, issue is why is there such a gap? The answer is it takes time to check on gens, time saved is time saved. But what causes both of these? Ding ding ding, objectives! Lack of forced objectives gives survivors a huge advantage and those killers who can do more with less time in chase are rewarded which leads to billy and nurse being top tier. Survivors have 6 objectives. Killers have 12. 5 gens and a door vs 12 hook phases at base. While a killer is in chase he isn't stopping 3 survivors from doing half of the objectives in one chase.
What did we learn today guys? Give survivors more forced objectives because if they aren't forced, they won't be utilized and the game will end in a crazy fast pace and eveything is ranked, not casual mode.0 -
Past experience shows it takes developers a good long while to make adjustments, even after committing and admitting to what needs accomplished. Let's say they go ahead and nerf Billy & Nurse, then there's a long waiting period before they'd buff the rest. In that span of time, with all killers at the absolute mercy of survivors, how long would it take the killer main base to throw their hands up? I know when I'm having a bad SWF night on Doc or Clown or even Huntress, I fall back and lift myself with an at least leveled game with Billy. I know I'd probably just switch over to survivor and play until the bugs are worked out (with no promise they would buff across the board, just blind faith). How many others would? How long until the player base on both sides would drop off, killers from just giving up and survivors from being unable to find a lobby?
I just don't think they'd be able to implement the across-the-board buffs in a timely enough manner to save face.
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I can't even imagine how horrid R1 play would be without the billy or nurse as an option.
I play all the killers at R1, but when I want a fair shake I play nurse or billy. When I choose any other killer I do so for the challenge, knowing full well I'll probably get stomped.
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Smh the problem is lack of survivor objectives, is no one thinking deep about this?0
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Also, nerfing billy and nurse won't help, the billy is good but not overwhelming, he just saves time, same for the nurse. Billy is overrated, look at why the are effective vs what makes them strong. They move fast, that's the key1
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@Tsulan said:
So, you nerf the only 2 viable killers and expect the other killers to suddenly be competitive on high ranks?Go ahead. See how that turns out.
My prediction: a "matchmaking error" for survivors above rank 10. Estimated time to find a match = 45+ minutesThat's not how you do balance.
If you want more killers to be viable at the higher ranks, you need to look at why they aren't.As it stands, the two main reasons are either that their chase game aren't as good as the Nurse's or that their map pressure aren't on par with the Hillbilly's.
The first one of the two reasons is actually the easiest to fix. Simply, make the maps less looping friendly. If maps become more accessible for killers who's chase game ain't top tier, we'd see far less Hillbillys and Nurses dominating the high ranks.0 -
@se05239 said:
@Tsulan said:
So, you nerf the only 2 viable killers and expect the other killers to suddenly be competitive on high ranks?Go ahead. See how that turns out.
My prediction: a "matchmaking error" for survivors above rank 10. Estimated time to find a match = 45+ minutesThat's not how you do balance.
If you want more killers to be viable at the higher ranks, you need to look at why they aren't.As it stands, the two main reasons are either that their chase game aren't as good as the Nurse's or that their map pressure aren't on par with the Hillbilly's.
The first one of the two reasons is actually the easiest to fix. Simply, make the maps less looping friendly. If maps become more accessible for killers who's chase game ain't top tier, we'd see far less Hillbillys and Nurses dominating the high ranks.I know that.
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@Dabrownman1812 said:
Smh the problem is lack of survivor objectives, is no one thinking deep about this?Devs dont want to force survivors into doing other objectives.
Thats why they made hexes so weak that its possible to kill 4 hex totems within a minute (happened yesterday to me), but the hex effects are actually so weak that the survivors can completely ignore them most of the time, devour being the only exception here.Their next idea to buff sabotage/slugging is the same. Survivors can simply ignore those and just hold M1 on the gens as before and we have the same situation.
Either the devs dont understand what the real problem is (gentime) or they simply dont wanna adress it and balance the game around casual low ranks instead
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Yeh, he didn't get you wasnt with the nerf. The issue is time, some people dont get itTsulan said:@se05239 said:
@Tsulan said:
So, you nerf the only 2 viable killers and expect the other killers to suddenly be competitive on high ranks?Go ahead. See how that turns out.
My prediction: a "matchmaking error" for survivors above rank 10. Estimated time to find a match = 45+ minutesThat's not how you do balance.
If you want more killers to be viable at the higher ranks, you need to look at why they aren't.As it stands, the two main reasons are either that their chase game aren't as good as the Nurse's or that their map pressure aren't on par with the Hillbilly's.
The first one of the two reasons is actually the easiest to fix. Simply, make the maps less looping friendly. If maps become more accessible for killers who's chase game ain't top tier, we'd see far less Hillbillys and Nurses dominating the high ranks.I know that.
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It's also not really loops, its lack of objectived and time it takes to finish them for survivors. It's quicker for them to so their objectives no matter what as it is now. Skilled survivors with jukes n such will waste time even with less loops and pallets. Loops are getting hit, some loop spots needs to be there since survivors cannot do anything directly to the killer. Not supposed to be free kills either, it's a time issue. Too few objectives, 6 survivor objectives to 12 killer objectives. The killer solos his objectives and survivors don't, you can keep one busy but the other three are still on half of the objectives for survivors.se05239 said:@Tsulan said:
So, you nerf the only 2 viable killers and expect the other killers to suddenly be competitive on high ranks?Go ahead. See how that turns out.
My prediction: a "matchmaking error" for survivors above rank 10. Estimated time to find a match = 45+ minutesThat's not how you do balance.
If you want more killers to be viable at the higher ranks, you need to look at why they aren't.As it stands, the two main reasons are either that their chase game aren't as good as the Nurse's or that their map pressure aren't on par with the Hillbilly's.
The first one of the two reasons is actually the easiest to fix. Simply, make the maps less looping friendly. If maps become more accessible for killers who's chase game ain't top tier, we'd see far less Hillbillys and Nurses dominating the high ranks.0 -
They just need to fix chases, specifically they need to make longer chases favor the killer, not the survivor. Return bloodlust to its original values, and make it so that bashing pallets doesn't drop bloodlust.
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