Not having counterplay is ONLY a problem if it's on the killer's side
Comments
-
Chase is the fun part of the game. I shouldn't have to sacrifice fun to play a GAME.
1 -
It's astonishing that he sounds so cheerful in his videos
0 -
I want to see you play billy against a competent SWF then.
0 -
Oh I can't even play him anymore lol. I haven't played him for at least 6 months, and I p1d him along with most other killers so I don't have any perks either. However, as demo or pig I can beat most people, even object swfs. Anyways, I do things by myself. Its on me if I can't end a chase in thirty seconds on most maps. That's just how I am. I don't rely on mistakes like bad killers. I will punish for a mistake, but I can catch a survivor in a very short amount of time very easily without one being made. Not all people have so little skill that they have to depend on other people to do their job for them.
0 -
But you do know what a safe pallet is do you?
0 -
Yea fun for you its so fun for killer when they have to hold forward when you can see them and wait till you drop a pallet but then you complain when you can't do that vs those killers
1 -
It might just be for me but he does feel like he has counterplay. I play as deathslinger and when I played a Survivor match a with a friend of mine I already had a fixed mindset on what he was pretty much going to do. I saw a pallet in front of me and I look back at deathslinger and I keep running to the pallet since I know that slinger's will have a knack for quick-shotting at pallets but that's where I quickly move to the opposite way and he misses his quickshot. Even though it might not sound like skill, it just felt really good when I was able to predict what he was about to do based on what I did when I play as deathslinger
0 -
Sorry for the incoming rant, but how tf do you break LOS or gain distance on a Deathslinger? Here's how it goes:
You're repairing a gen. All of a sudden you hear a low strumming noise. You look up and you see Deathslinger is like 8m away from you. His unique TR is extremely quiet at first, so with Monitor (which damn near every Deathslinger runs) he plays a lot like T2 Myers, but with a ranged weapon that you can't reactively dodge (see below). If you're weren't repairing a generator right next to a strong pallet you're going to take a hit within a few seconds. Even if you were, you might still take a hit over the pallet depending on the angle and the tile. In most cases, after you take that hit, assuming you were healthy before the chase started, this is your only real chance to break LOS or gain distance.
If you're lucky you may be able to find another strong pallet, but if not you're at the Deathslinger's mercy to miss. If you pre-emptively dodge, he walks up and M1s. If you don't dodge, he has an easy shot. Windows are death traps because he can hit you through them, and so are unsafe pallets because he can just shoot you and walk around them for the M1. Breaking LOS isn't really a solution, because no killer should be losing people much mid-chase. All that will really do is buy a little bit of time to not have to worry about getting quickscoped.
-------
Now, about the chain dodging business. Let's assume the killer and survivor both have 100ms ping, which is pretty average in my experience. The killer therefore shoots 200ms before the survivor has any feedback whatsoever. The chain is difficult to see when it's coming at you because it's thin and moving at a high speed, so there is not a prayer of you reacting to its trajectory and dodging accordingly. Your best bet is to hear the sound of the gun and dodge in a random direction. Per Wikipedia, the mean reaction time for responding to a simple audio stimulus is 160ms. That's just detecting a simple sound and signaling that you heard it, and not in a situation like DBD where there's a so much else competing for your attention. Still, let's take that number as a floor. Let's also assume that Deathslinger was aiming for center of mass and that the hitbox is exactly the same size as the survivor's capsule. So:
Survivor capsule width is .45m, and you would need to dodge by more than .225m for the shot to miss if Deathslinger was aiming at center of mass. .225m / 4m/s = 56ms minimum (see below) for the dodge. 56ms + 200ms from latency + 160ms from survivor reaction time = 416ms
Deathslinger's chain travels at 40m/s. Max range is 18m. 18m / 40m/s = 450ms.
We're not done, though, because in DBD characters can't turn on a dime. In order to change direction quickly, survivors need to press a few keys (or spin the analog stick on console), in order to spin their character, and the change in direction will be necessarily somewhat gradual. I don't know exactly how quickly survivor momentum can change, but there is not a prayer of pulling that off in less than 34ms, that's for sure. So, what's the takeaway from all this? Even at max range you can't reactively dodge his chain.
-------
There are a few main reasons why Huntress has lots of room for counterplay:
- Huntress's lullaby and standard TR sound means she cannot surprise survivors like Deathslinger can. She's therefore vulnerable to stealth and will typically start chases from farther away than Deathslinger will, even given her base 20m TR.
- Huntress's hatchets are less accurate and can be reactively dodged if they're not charged.
- Huntress must charge her hatchets for 1-2.75 seconds (minimum charge vs max charge) before they can travel the same speed as Deathslinger's chain. She moves at 77% speed while charging, so survivors have ample time to break line of sight and can gain distance while she prepares to throw, even while dodging to try to bait a miss. That means she cannot zone with her hatchets like Deathslinger can with his gun.
- Huntress gives distinct audio cues when readying a hatchet, putting a hatchet away, throwing a hatchet, and fully charging a hatchet. Deathslinger (I believe) only has an audio cue with aiming down sight, but that's irrelevant because he can just quickscope.
Huntress is still a stronger killer than Deathslinger because her hatchets have no max range, she effectively has a higher rate of fire because she can throw five hatchets before reloading, and she can down survivors with her ranged attack directly.
Huntress in my mind is an extremely well made killer. There's plenty of counterplay for survivors, but she's nevertheless quite strong. That means that both sides have a chance to show their skill to shorten or lengthen chases, and that's exactly how it should be. Deathslinger is one of a few killers in the game that puts the outcome of a chase almost entirely in the killer's hands. And yet, he's still underwhelming in terms of strength.
In my opinion Behaviour should take some cues from Huntress to make Deathslinger stronger, but also give more room for survivors to counter him. I would remove his ability to zone by massively increasing his ADS time and adding a small delay before he can M1 after lowering his weapon (much like Huntress's delay as she puts away her hatchet). I would also do away with his stealth by modifying his TR audio and by pushing his base TR out to 32m. To make up for these nerfs, I would increase the length of his chain and bump him up to 115% speed. Increasing his range would raise his skill cap and increasing his base speed would help him close the gap in the chase. I feel that he would have much better map pressure this way, because people would need to respect the chain even at long range, but he would be more counterable in the 1v1 because he would no longer be able to zone.
1 -
Reminder that this build is completely counterable by hoking everyone once early, also this build just works at the endgame and the survivor isn't favoured during the first 5 gens and no perks are going to help them repairing or getting chased.
1 -
Yes part of the build is countered if everyone is hooked once early, and Deathslinger's power only helps him in a chase, he has low movement speed and lacks any map pressure, and is completed counterable by stealth and spreading out on gens, as well as putting terrain between you, making distance and blocking line of sight in chase, yet people still say he has no counterplay.
2 -
If the killer makes the mistake of hitting the survivor while soul guard is active, then the survivor has 22s or 84m to escape (factoring in bloodlust and lunge speed). You might argue that the counterplay is waiting to hit the survivor until soul guard expires, but with tier 3 soul guard, the survivor is guaranteed 8 seconds, or 32m of travel time to escape.
Combine all of this with DS or DH and it's just as bad as mettle of man or worse, considering it can be used multiple times.
When old Ruin was changed, killers were encouraged to utilize the endgame to secure a win; slugging was also condoned as a fair tactic. However, soul guard is a direct counter to slugging during end game, contradicting that advice.
I think that for survivors using Soul Guard, their healing speed while in the dying state should be reduced. Say, by 35%.
2 -
Gotta disagree with the thread title.
Infinite loops, pallets vacuums, DS, BT, MoM and more all had little to no counterplay yet were nerfed to have counterplay.
Stop trying to play the victim card on killers.
1 -
For some reason the devs are happy to give survivors powerful perks with little to no downsides. The perfect example are exhaustion perks; you basically get one free escape every 40 seconds and the only "downside" is you can use them once per chase. Can you imagine the if killers had something like that? Like once per chase you may double the reach of your lunge, or break an unused pallet, then you become fatigued and have to wait a 40 second cooldown.
If killer perks have strong effects you need to work for them (Pop, Thrilling, etc) and if even when they're "passive" like Thana, and Coulrophobia they're absolutely useless.
1 -
thats just a guess. It only had a 50% chance of working. Also although you can predict where he'll shoot, if you don't get hit he missed. Nothing to do with your own skill.
0 -
First of all, I'm a killer main. Second, I want to change my playstyle for different killers, but not have the killer be uncounterable like deathslinger or or spirit. I like going against nurse, and she completely changes my playstyle.i like huntress, and she changes it too. I like demo, I like hag, I like doctor, I like oni, I like myers. I want to change playstyle, but I don't want to die the second I get seen.
0 -
You know what the break action is dont you? Eh maybe not since I assume youre a nurse main like me.
0 -
"Survivors take no skill so therefore if my killer has no real counterplay its fair"
Pretty much this is the mentality, people thinking surv is just running around like a headless chicken around a loop, not using their brain to pull off good efficiency of palletss/jungle gyms.
But its totally fine to have a killer that takes any kind of skill away from the survivors cause they only gotta "git gud", like, seriously...
Spirit is BS, Freddy is BS, and deathslinger at times is BS, it is what it is.
1 -
Then dont get seen
2 -
Yeah, that would be really powerful! Well, come to think of it, we do get our killer power to use, which function a lot like exhaustion perks. But, I see your point for sure. If I remember correctly, the way the game is balanced is that the killers strength grows as the match progresses, while survivor strength weakens. I mean, to be entirely honest I don't know how bad soul guard is. But, the times I've encountered it, it's been a free escape for survivors - and you're right, it's one of those perks they don't have to do anything for. I guess we will get a better idea once people start using Hex: Undying, which in a way is an indirect buff to Soul Guard, which could be interesting. Multiple uses of Haunted Ground against multiple DS's paired with Soul Guard. I guess Pyramid Head will be a good counter to soul guard, if you can get people with torment.
As a side note, could the bigger issue here be that Deep wound doesn't really do anything? I feel like it should still tick down, even when the survivor is moving or mending, maybe at half the rate or less. Or, maybe the mending should regress if they move again. There are ways to address it, so it's not just a free get out of jail free card during end game.
2 -
Damn man the sheer amount of pride I felt during that time was great though. Now I feel stupid 😔
1 -
what does that have to do with my point?
0 -
The fact that theres counterplay for both yet people complain theres no counterplay, was a comparison more than anything else.
1 -
You want something like an exhaustion perk for killers? Something that "once per chase" you get a speed boost with no "downside"? Something like Bloodlust? That doesnt even take up a perk slot?
Or were you thinking of more like ANY of the mobility killers? Spirit, hillbilly, legion, etc?
What do you actually want at this stage? Survivors to spawn on hooks?
1 -
Its ok. I am sure that you are very skillful since you knew where he would shoot. All I'm saying was, even though you predicted well, it was completely his fault that he missed.
1 -
Oh really? How is it fun to hide? How fun is it to spend 5 minutes looking for a survivor because you play a certain killer? I want to have fun, not ruin mine and others fun just to win. This isn't even a competitive game.
1 -
A 13% speed increase after FORTY seconds in a chase is absolutely negligible, considering 3 gens could be halfway done in this time. It's also quite mind boggling that this is the example you chose to prove killers have a comparable amount of resources, considering bloodlust is a band aid fix for poor design. (Even with bloodlust 3 all god pallets make you invincible unless you make a mistake)
Now, about your second point if you think only a small amount of killers should be viable then let's apply the same logic to survivors. What if they all have different movement speeds? Would you have fun if everyone played ONLY Meg because she's clearly the fastest survivor? Would you be okay with Jeff being played in 1 out of 80 games because he would be slower?
There needs to be a balance between pros and cons of playing a character. It's been said multiple times already: Deathslinger has. Zero. Map pressure. Zero. Information. Zero. Slowdown. I don't know how else to make people like you understand that losing a 1v1 vs a good Deathslinger is a FRACTION of the entire game. Spirit gets a bunch of resources but is still heavily countered if you're VERY cautious when healthy and very stealthy. Billy needs to get you somewhere out in the open and you can STILL dodge his chainsaw.
0
