Devs, why did you remove old ruin but Ds is still alive?
Devs explained us different points about this decision, but game changed since it, genrush is op , they had to fix different maps, a lot of bugs. Killers more campers even tru3talent , ortz have to camp sometimes. If you removed D's I believed that a lot of things can change... Ok if you main goal is to help survivors, you are doing a good job
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They probably didn't change DS when they changed Ruin because they are two totally different things.
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They changed DS before.
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They changed ruin because it was almost impossible to hit Great Skill Checks for new Survivors and too easy for experienced Survivors I think, so they made it more consistent in terms of effect.
I'm not sure why they don't want to change DS, I personally don't like it, but maybe Devs do? Idk.
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They changed DS back in March 2019. It used to be an instant, 5 second stun, then an instant, 4 second stun, if you were the obsession, now we're here. I'll take current ds over old ds any day
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If they removed DS killers wouldn't start playing nicer. I really hate hearing people saying that. Killers would just start tunnelling more, cause they know they wouldn't risk getting punished. Have you ever tried playing survivor and loading into a game where there is no obsession? Cause whenever I get into a game like that (I don't run DS anymore, I prefer BT) 80% of the time the killer will just tunnel the first survivor out of the game.
But on the subject, DS has been changed before to be given a condition, Ruin was changed because of the passive slowdown it gave and it hurt new players while not changing much for experienced players. I'd love to see the more abused side of DS removed (locker DS for immunity), but DS as a perk is needed to discourage killers from targeting one survivor.
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Maybe because they're two totally different things dealing with completely different parts of the game? Why on earth would DS need to be nerfed because Ruin got nerfed?
1. Toolboxes got nerfed
2. Survivors working on gens together got nerfed
3. Great skill check progression bonus got nerfed
4. Several maps got changed so that it would be easier for killers to waste less time traversing the map AND on braindead loop chases
Ruin may have gotten nerfed, but it brought along several survivor nerfs. And current Ruin is still very good, and like @AhoyWolf mentioned, it IS more consistent against players of every skill level.
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Yes they are trying to help survivors. They recent killers that have been added were:
- Blight
- Pyramid Head
- Deathslinger
- Oni
- Doctor rework
These killers are all A tier with some having little to no counters. They also released perks like:
- Dead Mans Switch (Gen blocking perk)
- Hex: Undying (It and Ruin are now meta)
- Dragons Grip (Perk that exposes you for tapping a gen after the killer kicks it)
They literally added a survivor perk that blocks gens lol the amazing job they have done helping survivors. DS is to help against tunnellers, campers and mori users. Same way the newly added gen perks above are to help with potential gen rushing.
New Ruin is better than the old one. More rewarding at high ranks and not op at low ranks. The recent changes have been to help balance the game better like:
- Fixing Billy's broken add-ons
- Making Bubba unreliant on perks
- Map changes 2 months ago
- Breakable walls on maps that had their graphics changed. These maps are now very good for killer.
- Buffing perks like Tinkerer to the point it's almost meta, Frankins can remove items from the game and you can't flashlight save anymore if the killer uses Lightborn.
Bar the bugs they've done an exceptional jobs in their efforts to balance the game.
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How does blight have little to no counterplay?
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Probably because DS was nerfed long before Ruin was changed? Noticed I said nerfed and changed? It's simple:
- Old DS was a pure nightmare. You had no idea who had it. They could use it from the first time they are picked up - no hook requirement. You could, and I have been, DS'ed 4 times before you get your first hook. 4 Gens are done by this point and you are looking at getting your first actual hook with 1 gen left. Snowballing a match like that is nearly impossible. Old DS was a pure nightmare. There is only one thing I'd change about new DS. If you hop in a locker or are "grabbed" from a gen, it deactivates. Let the killer at least have the option to play around DS by slugging.
- Old Ruin was immensely strong vs new and low skilled survivors. I've seen entire teams get wrecked by really bad killers because of old Ruin. At red ranks, it was barely even noticeable. The skill level between the survivors was much higher. Hitting great skill checks was easy. So easy, they would meme around if they missed one. Ruin did very little at high ranks. Would often get destroyed fast too.
- New Ruin is much more useful to me at higher ranks. I get rewarded for pushing survivors off of gens. I don't have to stop and kick every gen in order to get it to regress. I get a 200% regression reward with no wasted time. Most matches, I'm 2-3 hooks in before it gets destroyed, unless they spawn next to it. Why? Because most of the time survivors don't think of it as a hindrance. Until they keep getting pushed off gens and losing progress. By that time, I'm starting to snowball and they have to get ruin gone. So I get even more time as they hunt it down.
Personally, I love new Ruin much more than old. I get a lot more value out of it than I ever got out of the old one at red ranks. I do agree, it is nowhere near as strong at lower ranks though. Old Ruin outright crippled new players. Frankly, it was not a balanced perk to people who struggle to hit skill checks, not alone great ones. It made for some very lazy killers.
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I said some of them, not specifically Blight. My comment was more about Pyramid Head and Deathslinger.
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They changed DS before Ruin, old DS didnt even need to be unhooked to be used, it was always active and the only requesite was if you were not the Obssession you had to reach 35% wiggle for the Skillcheck to appear (which almost everyone reached anyway, especially SWFs).
Also "If you removed D's I believed that a lot of things can change..." you are right, tunneling would be way more prevalent, almost as prevalent as it is in any trial where there are no obssessions.
I do believe the locker interaction with DS should go away.
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locker DS and DS-Unbreakable are problematic, but I agree the perk should remain for the sake of game health. Particularly to make solo actually bearable.
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Idk man, I still think DS should deactivate when someone else is hooked, or when a survivor touches a gen or heals. In return, it should be a 2 time use perk, and the timer shouldn't go down in chase. Maybe make the perk basekit as well, to prevent tunneling.
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I mean, never usually a problem for me. There are a couple times it's annoying but only because it's paired with Unbreakable.
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You don't need DS and unbreakable for solo play.
This build gives me about a 70% survival rate at rank 1 as solo survivor. I only have about 150 hours in survivor, I'm not very good and I do not run any items or addons, preferring to find them in the trial. If I ran a medkit every game or most games I could probably push my survival rate to 80-90% solo.
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Where did I say you needed it? I said that when there's no obsession solo I'd absolute hell, but even with one I'm still left to die on first hook when I'm first hooked and the killer isn't camping and I have kindred so at this point I'm convinced nothing will ever make solo survivor bearable. There are two people rn that I can even have the smallest amount of fun with and I'm not sure I'll ever be able to play with one of them again.
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II feel like I should clarify because of your first line, I'm a killer main and I very very very rarely play survivor because its absolute torture. I'll make it to rank 1, do my tome challenges, then not touch it till the next month. I prefer facing new DS than old ds or old old ds.
Also imagine thinking the DS changes weren't a nerf. Lol.
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I mean... they made ruin stronger sooooo
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Ah so you've just admitted to being an alt account, big yikes.
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The problem with the "deactivate DS if you do something" is it renders whoever got unhooked useless for he cant do anything or he doesnt get to use his perk at all, thats not healthy gameplay at all.
DS is an Anti-momentum perk and in Solo queue Killers can easily snowball when there is no DS, also the Solo game is already slow enough to put people out of commision for fear of losing their perk for 1 minute.
As I said the Locker+DS interaction has to go away, I would make if the Surivor gets grabbed out of a locker he goes to dying state with DS active, it would the same as hitting him with a M1, the choice is there for the Killer to eat the stun or slug the guy. The Unbreakeable+DS combo is a bit tricker for its very strong, especially when Exit Gates are open but is also 2 slots for a situation it may never happen, if the Killer decided to not tunnel you are losing 2 perks (you dont get to use DS and is rare to slug someone enough time for Unbreakable to be activated except when trying to avoid DS). I believe the problem is not the perks nor the combo themselves but the insane strength SWFs get out of it for they can coordinate chain tanking hits and as always, gutting something because SWFs will make Solo even more miserable.
Its not easy unless we get separated queues and separated balancing for Solos and SWFs.
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No, ruin isn't stronger. The fact that old ruin was in effect at the very start of the game made it much stronger. The fact that killers have to physically chase survivors off gens in order to get ruin value makes it much weaker.
If you're looking at a spreadsheet and looking directly at values and effects, old ruin was weaker. If you actually play the game and understand the pacing of the game, old ruin was much stronger. Old ruin had an indirect effect of allowing the killer to find survivors a little quicker by encouraging them to try for great skill checks, this alone makes it much stronger.
It's probably best if you don't listen to the devs when they talk about the strength of things in this game. These are the same people that said clown was a very strong killer and that the playerbase just didn't understand his strength.
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Blight is pretty fun to verse maybe rework compound 21 and nerf the speed just a bit.
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The change was a nerf now I have to be hooked to use DS.
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You don't need to run ds aslong as another person runs it because the killer has to play around DS everytime he unfortunately finds an unhooked person because getting hit by DS will most likely lose you the game in red ranks, unless you are super far ahead.
You essentially use 5 perks everygame aslong as ds exists.
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You don't need any meta perks, you just feel much safer if you have them. Dumb actions of your fellow survivors are an additional problem.
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Not really, I ran DS for a while. It's not a good perk, especially solo. At high ranks most killers don't tunnel to begin with, and the other perks I run are very solo oriented, empathy to make sure you're never spotted by BBQ and to max out efficiency at the early game, BT to use your team mates as meat shields and guaranteeing pips, IW to help sneak past killers, and dead hard for whenever you make mistakes. It's a very strong solo build.
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New ruin is both much healthier and stronger than the old one.
Old Ruin did essentially nothing against survivors able to hit the skillchecks. The only value you got out of it was denying the small amount of extra progress from great skill checks.
The only way to interact with the skillchecks as killer was to run Unnerving Presence (terrible perk, saw / sees no play), Hex: Huntress Lullably (terrible perk, saw / sees no play) or using certain Doctor add-ons. The vast majority of the time killers used neither of those options. Only survivors that could not hit the skillchecks consistently were affected by Ruin without any skillful actions on the killer's part. Especially newer players got completely destroyed by Ruin - without the killer actually having to do anything.
So the options were:
- keep a super one-dimensional, boring perk that the killer can't really interact with in the game
- rework it
I think the choice is obvious.
With the new Ruin both sides can meaningfully interact with it: As a killer, if you find a lone survivor on a generator you more or less erase all the progress of that survivor on that generator with the new Ruin. If there are multiple you need to decide whether you want to down one survivor, but then your Ruin does nothing, or if you try and keep the multiple survivors off the generator to gain value from your Ruin.
As survivor you need to decide if you want to heal or unhook someone and lose progress on your generator or if you keep working on it instead. It might be good to find another survivor and to work on a generator together, so one can go heal or unhook while the other repairs to stop Ruin from wrecking your progress.
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I think the speed is fine, his power is pretty hard to hit, with lots of counterplay. Compound 21 is ridiculous though, have to agree. I think he should have a flick to his power though.
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That's the thing if he gets a flick the speed has to get toned down. The speed with compound 21 is rediculous. And I've also seen people do some insane turning.
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You can do some OK flicks if you use mouse and keyboard, but I play him on console, and he can pretty much only hit in a straight line, which is terrible. If he gets a better flick and keeps his speed, he would be fine, since you can still loop him, and you can always react to what he can do. He can outplay some loops like shack, if he bounces off of trees. Compound 21 should have a large downside though, like decreased speed.
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Bruh they nerf DS so hard in the past
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I guess thats fair I wanna see a flick in action though so I guess I shouldn't make bold claim just yet. But that's the thing with his flick could potential become too strong thats my fear at least. Combine that with his speed at filler pallets I could see not much options to dodge it. You are right about being able to react to it. He actually has a telegraph which is cool. Compund 21 needs a rework definitely.
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I guess it would too strong if it was a ptb oni type flick, but you should be able to at least turn 90 degrees on a controller with it. If a survivor is in front of me, I should be able to lunge left or right as well.
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I agree with you on that you can 360 his lunge pretty easily due to restrictions that needs a change. Ptb oni was just wow. Insanely strong.
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first DS was a 7seconds stun,
The very first DS, obession or not
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But hey, killers don't know what DS used to be... that's why they still complain
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This was the first ever DS
Only 5 seconds.
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Nope you’re wrong. New ruin is stronger especially with high mobility killers. Old ruin couldn’t completely regress a gen that was at 95%... new ruin can. Old ruin wasn’t even an issue for good survivors because they could reliably hit great skillchecks. New ruin does it’s job as long as the killer is doing theirs. Pair new ruin with tinkerer or undying or surveillance and it becomes crazy strong. You get pressure through the entirety of the match rather than just a little bit at the beginning. New ruin is only “bad” if your playing a trap based killer that requires set up time, or if you just can’t end chases quickly. Old ruin was just a worse corrupt intervention, new ruin can be extremely deadly.
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I don't think anyone wants it remover hell I'd be okay if it got a buff in the changes(turn into a longer stun or multiple uses afterall tunneling is annoying af) but they need to change it. To say it's only used as antitunneling is bs to the highest degree, at red ranks I see it used more to just 2nd chance or be an ass then I do as it is "intended". If someone can be unhooked, fully healed and get 10-15% on a gen they ain't being tunneled, if they are in endgame they aren't tunneled, if they are the last alive it isn't tunneling, if I chase down 1-2 healthy survivors and hook them it isn't tunneling. It needs a rework but I doubt the Devs will rework it. Also I'll eat my shoes if when the PH changes come out they'll make ds work off cages
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Because the devs love to see the killer squirm and be as stressed as possible.
Q times for survivor are already going up after cross play due to more high rank killers leaving... its just not worth it
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The devs have confirmed before that while anti-tunneling is a side effect of DS, it's main purpose is an anti-momentum perk, not anti-tunneling, in its current state.
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I do think that given how frequently some perks are used, they should be adjusted.
Changing Ruin was a good call on BHVR's part as it was mainly punishing to new players, but it made the problem of gen speeds more obvious. If you don't have slowdown perks on, you put yourself at a severe disadvantage which isn't healthy for the game. There is little to no variety on either side.
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The developers whose designed the rework to Decisive strike themselves have said its an anti tunnel perk.
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And from what I remember on these forums, they said that wasn't its only purpose.
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They ackowledged it can be used with clicky clicky flashlight spam as a distraction but only Peanits who has no say in design has ever called it anti momentum and no other dev when asked has ever called it anti momentum.
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Afaik Peanuts also gets his information relayed to him by the development team.
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Peanits is also known for saying things that have no basis in reality in the past(that comment was a long time ago and was never repeated when asked).
So there's a good chance that the comment was Peanits simply being wrong(Especually when we have Q A answers that directly contradict this statement).
He's human after all he can make mistakes.
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DS is here to stay. They only need to tweak it's conditions so it can't be abused.
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Old ruin was effective at the point of the match where the killer has the least amount of pressure. New ruin is effective at the point of the match where the killer has the most amount of pressure. Yes, on paper, obviously new ruin is better, but in practice it isn't. If ruin wasn't a hex totem, you could argue that new ruin is effectively stronger, but as the match goes on, the chance of ruin being cleansed increases, so while new ruin is stronger towards late game, it has less of a chance achieving full effectiveness. Making the argument that new ruin is stronger is just wrong because that does not reflect the current usage of it nor does it reflect the intentions of the devs when they changed it. They changed it specifically to be weaker. This is the same reason why NOED is such a weak perk. Late game builds are not strong because of the unbalanced nature of the game, usually the game is decided way before late game. This is also why corrupt intervention is such a strong perk and widely used, as it is essentially the exact opposite of new ruin or NOED. You sacrifice a perk slot to get 120 seconds of better map pressure at the start of the game, this two minutes of increased pressure is enough to significantly increase win rates / killer effectiveness.
If you want to understand why early game pressure is so strong for killer, just play a lot of oni or billy. The faster you locate and down your first survivor, the faster you can locate the second survivor while the first is on hook and reduce gen progression by 300%. New ruin requires survivors not to be on gens in order for them to regress. Notice how after ruin was changed, it is now normal for 2 gens to be done before the first hook and devs had to change how emblems work to make up for how fast gens get done now.
Your explanation just doesn't stand up to the evidence we have.
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Money. Perk from a paid DLC.
Same goes for OoO.
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