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To all who claim some killers have counterplay while others don't
I'm always baffled when I see people make claims that some killers are uncounterable while other supposedly can be countered. The way I see it, if proper conditions are met, not a single killer power has a realiable counterplay that survivor can use to evade it as long as killer plays perfectly (which is impossible to do consistently thus counterplay always relies on mistakes from other side + many other factors).
So to put it relatively short, I find it that survivors don't have control to evade any killer power that is perfectly used by the killer. Luckily for them, consitency at which killer powers can be used varies a lot, some powers are useful only under specific conditions making them rarely used others are far more consistent making them useable far more often resulting in survivors beiing more exposed to their effect which leads to them realising that they don't have as much control as they thought and are actually depending on killer's mistakes.
Don't take this the wrong way, I agree that some counterplay exists for killer powers, just that it's actually much less survivors countering them rather then those powers just beiing inconsistent or reliable on perfect gameplay from the killer.
Let me describe what I mean. Feel free to just read a killer you want to talk about.
-Trapper - as long as his traps are placed at perfect spots where they force you to either step in them or leave the loop resulting in him catching up and hitting you.
Basically, you rely on that trapper doesn't have time to set up and that you'll be lucky enough to not step into his traps which often but you presonally can't do much about his traps in chase.
-Wraith - his power isn't chase based which makes it's use really unreliable forcing you to use it to catch people out of position.
This creates the idea that wraith is easily countered, just loop him, yes ofc but if he catches you off guard (main purpose of his power) you really can't do anything at that point. You rely on wraith not finding you while you're vulnerable and if he doesn't you can't do anything.
-Hillybilly - God tier curves from a billy who uses his power perfectly will catch up to you in almost all tiles in the game. Once he has distance to do them you're forced to pre-throw the pallet or get downed, not even talking about close distance chainsaws.
-Nurse - As long as she does her blinks perfectly to the last position she saw you, you'll never be able to juke her, especially at close distances. This is the killer that you can do the least in the whole game as long as she plays perfectly.
-Shape - If he catches you off guard he's twice as deadly as wraith. Same conditions apply as wraith, you can loop him yes but his power isn't build around chasing so you're countering basic chase mechanics of the killer, not his power.
-Hag - Perfect trap placement just as trapper has no real chase counterplay. You rely on her not having time to set up or misplace her traps. Once you're in chase, you eihter step in the traps and get hit or you're lucky and don't.
-Doctor - If the doctor knows perect timing and distances for his shocks you can't vault or use windows until he's close enough to hit you. Basically another killer that has uncounterable chase power which relies on long match times to catch & kill everyone before gens are done.
-Huntress - Perfect example of killer you can counterplay right ? In my opinion no, you rely on her not having enough time for a hatchet throw, once she has it you eihter get hit or play a prediction mindgame (guessing as many like to call it) if she'll pull her hatchet, throw or bluff.
Either way, if she's played perfectly you'll always get hit no matter what, either you're in her LOS without blockers for 3s to fully charge perfectly thrown hatchet or you're in loop where she'll eventually have enough time to hit you with hatchet no matter if you bluff or not since she'll have enough time to pull, throw and connect.
-Cannibal - A killer that forces you to pre-throw pallet or get instadowned. Only thing you can do is chain tiles which isn't you countering the killer but map spawning tiles favorably for you. Once he has enough distance, you're going down, again you slow this down with pallets but the less you have of them the more you increase the amout of consistency at which his power can be used.
Race for running our of resources isn't really you doing something to counterplay a killer imao.
-Nightmare - His snares force you to be less greedy with looping but overall, you're forced to step in them. You'll eventually go to dream world and then you have no way to evade them. Again, you use pallets to counter basic chase mechanics but the power you have to take and you can't reliably counter anything about it.
-Pig - Her powers is very clunky (not a pig main so maybe it's better then I think, can't really say) but if she forces you to bad position where she has enough distance on you, you're again playing prediction mindgame if she charges and if you should leave the tile before it happens. If she guesses your move she'll hit you, if not you get away. Still, if we consider that SOMEHOW, the killer never makes mistakes, she'll hit you in both scenarios.
-Clown - Gas makes you go slow, you either have distance to another tile or you don't. If clown knows perfect distance to kite you around the loop through the gas he'll hit you or you'll pre-throw pallets until you're out. Still, you're eating his power and can't evade it.
-Spirit - Perfectly played spirit is just as unbeatable as nurse. You rely on her not knowing where you'll stand once she leaves her phase. Even if you removed all notifications she gets during it (sounds, scratch marks, everything) and made her glow while she phases, if spirit playes PERFECTLY, she'll always predict where you'll be and you can do nothing about it.
I know, it's ridiculous to assume that you as spirit can always know where survivor will be when you literally can't see or hear them, nothing and you're right. It is ridiculous, just as ridiculous as assuming that you have no impact on killer's prediction where you'll be and that you have no impact on the chase, in other words that "killer just missed their power".
-Legion - No real chase power but people still hate him since you can't evade him injuring you and forces you to "hold M1 more" with mending. As some would say, his power has no counterplay in terms of evading it as an individual if he uses it well.
-Plague - Her vomit is same as huntress, once she has distance on you, you can't dodge it if she uses it perfectly. Main difference is that she's faster and her vomit has much shorter wind up, so it's even harder to evade. It's mainly limited by it having a duration and activation requirement which lowers it's consistency so nobody talks about how uncounterable it is.
-Ghostface - Same as wraith but less notifications thus making him more consistent to catch you off guard. You just need to hope he'll play bad to let you spot him before it's too late.
-Demogorgon - His shred takes 1s to activate and doesn't have any real drawback to zone with it. Suprisingly enough, nobody complains about this. Why is that, imao it's because demos are rarely played (even rarer to see good ones at shredding) and shred requires you to perfectly know distances to catch up with it in loops. Basically simmiliar to huntress or LF, if he has distance to hit you with shred, you can't dodge it if demo uses it perfectly. You either pre-throw pallets or get hit.
-Oni - Once he has blood fury, you're chances you somehow evade his perfectly aimed dashes is basically 0. Even pallets or windows can't stop Oni who mastered distances in tiles and can flick & predict perfectly.
-Deathslinger - Most complained killer together with PH in matters of counterplay. Many think that he would have counterplay (or be fair/fun whatever) if he had windup and M2 cancel cooldown which couldn't be further from truth. Only thing that will do is limit his consistency for using his power. You'll still be unable to dodge his perfectly aimed shot if he gains enough distance to shoot you realiably.
He's in this similliar to spirit or nurse, once he has distance to use his power on you, you can't do anything if plays PERFECTLY and is in perfect spots to use it, just like most other powers can't be evaded once you're in their reach.
-Executioner - Same case as deathslinger, perfectly aimed shots can't be evaded except no walls/obstacles can save you once you're in his reach. Ofc this perfectly aimed shots mean that PH somehow perfectly knows where you'll be dodging which is the inconsistent part about his power.
-Blight - For now (since he's new) I'll say that you can't really dodge a blight who perfectly aligned his rushes once you're out of position which will happen against this killer quite often as long as he plays blight perfectly.
TL:DR - Perfectly used killer power can't be reliably countered once it's in perfect spot or in perfect distance for it to be used by a killer that doesn't miss it. Survivors depend on ALL KILLERS to misuse their powers, not just a specifit few.
Comments
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Counterplay is being able to take given information and attempting to play around them. Spirit is a coin toss, Trapper you can disarm and play around how he traps. One has counterplay, One is a gamble
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You can't disarm mid-chase and you can't know where he placed his traps be it tall grass or anything else that will hide them or blocking your pallets/windows entirely.
In chase, you rely on him not having his traps set in place you loop. Other then chase, ofc you can counter him but it's the same as saying you can counter spirit by just not getting chased.
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Ok so perfectly played powers cant be countered but no one is gonna play perfectly is that your point you are trying to portray?
The problem is with killers like ph,ds,spirit you only have to be good to make the survivor guess what you will do.
An equally skilled ph vs a survivor the PH will win becuase of his zoning. Same goes to DS he can insta shoot or make you dodge.l and gain distance.
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Basically yes, I hate the pretense that counterplay vs some killers exists while against others it doesn't. All killers have some amount of counterplay since nobody can play their killer perfectly and never make a bad prediction or badly judge/use their power.
I can see the frustrations with zoning and from my point of view I'd be fine with adding M2 CD on release on both DS and PH but it wouldn't change anything about how you play against them. You still need to predict when & where they'll use their power, the people who get frustrated with getting hit by their powers will still get hit by them as long as they get out of position to give them time to shoot.
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I think what some people mean is a hard counter. When Trapper is chasing you at a jungle gym, you drop the pallet and that's it. He can't get you. He has to break the pallet and then you can run to the next.
With Spirit/Nurse dropping the pallet isn't necessarily the end of it. They can still play around a pallet or loop. However you can juke both of them, you can predict their next move and do the opposite of what they expect, this makes them miss and extends the chase until they're able to use their power again, however it's not a black/white scenario like dropping a pallet against an M1 killer is.
Things in the game that legit have no counterplay, endgame DS, BT etc Dead hard for distance (if your killer doesn't have the add ons) etc etc none of this has counterplay but it's apparently fine because it's on the survivor side.
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Well you're at that point not countering his power but basic chase mechanics and the RNG of him not having trap there. If you run into the tile where he has trap in a spot to block of the pallet you're getting hit no matter what, you countering involved. Trapper is just inconsistent, you need time to set up and RNG to have people run into your traps at times where you can capitalize on it. Nobody complains about him not because he has counterplay but because it takes him ages and RNG for him to become uncounterable.
Spirit does basically same thing as trapper but people don't complain about trapper because his power is horribly slow and inconsistent while spirit can use her whenever to get the same effect faster and more reliably.
I wish people stopped calling some things uncouterable especially when both sides have so much stuff other side has little to no control over which is fine at times. Not everything is mean to have a hard counter.
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Adding a cooldown to cancelling would mean that you can actually commit to dodging without it being as punishing. Now you can dodge at keypoints like doorways and not be hit by the m1.
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You are using terms like "god tier curves on billy", "Doctor's perfect timing" "Perfect dashes on Oni". Yes, of course, if a killer masters a chosen killer, then of course he's gonna stomp a lot of survivors. All those killers have counterplay if you don't know how to play against them, though - you can just pre-drop pallets. You are wasting resources, yes, but you can actually survive for a longer period of time.
Most stealth killers can be countered by just being observant or just by running spine chill. There are also tactics that counter a lot of killer powers.
Spirit and PH? You don't need a lot of skill to play them well. No need to master them, like the other killers, because they have the most brainless powers.
PH is ALWAYS guaranteed a hit if he fakes his power on a window. No counterplay there. No mindgames you can apply.
Spirit, if running stridor, also has no counterplay. Even Iron Will, the only perk that remotely counters her doesn't help at all.
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Nobody will play perfectly, and most killers actually have counterplay. I think deathslinger is fair in the chase besides his ads spam (just remove his ads spam and I'll be fine). I love playing deathslinger personally, and people don't know that dropping pallets early will pretty much always counter him. I think spirit is pretty problematic though, as there is literally nothing you can do against her in a chase.
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You see, those are expressing that perfect gameplay doesn't exist and with every killer you're be sooner or later forced to make a prediction on both sides which will usually be killer sides to an extent. You'll rely on killer misjudging his distances, misaiming his power or something like that. Claiming that killers like spirit or PH don't need to predict what survivors will do is silly since they do. All killers need to make predictons just as much as survivors.
PH is guaranteed to get a hit on a window but only if you allowed him to get close enough. At that point half the killer roster can guaranteed a hit if they have time to hit you with their power.
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Survivors also get better over time and will try to predict the killers' predictions too..
And the thing is, Spirit with stridor and PH don't need predictions, because they are guaranteed to always get a hit. With spirit you just need a basic headset and with PH simple common sense. No skill involved.
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Relatively short is relative.
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So you want survivor perks to counter killers/killer perks? But vice versa cant apply?
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I think this is a bad comparison tbh.
People complain about Spirit during a chase. If you are being chased by a Trapper you are going to have to just open your eyes unless you walk through grass in which case you have 0 counter against that and you are either going to guess right or wrong.
My personal main problem with Spirit is the ability to hear injured survivors. You can almost detect them point blank if you are right up their behind. Getting rid of coalition was a good step in the right direction, I still think they could adjust the grunt sounds to throw her off a bit.
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You're free to think so. I haven't seen a great spirit or PH in a while. So many of them miss their power so often and are quite jukeable. If it's as easy as you say then a rank 1 killer base must be full of noobs which is what we're balancing around otherwise some SWF changes would happen already.
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You got me there.
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Where did I say that buddy?
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Spirit and stridor? Iron will cant counter it. So im asking you. Do you just want survivor perks to counter killers? But not vice versa? I mean biggest example is calm spirit and doctor.
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You say Spirit and PH don't require skill yet I see baby spirits/pyramids get stomped way harder than babybillys or babydoctors.
Also, people keep saying killers take no skill.....but sad to say all I see is survivors taking no skill these days. I often feel like I'm playing against perks rather than people.
Can't loop but has sprint burst to add an extra 20 seconds to chase, can't predict killer mindgames but has dead hard to get distance back, then of course there are all the times you get cucked by all the second chance perks, DS, Unbreakable, BT, Adrenaline, Deliverance etc
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Im an average spirit. Yes i use stridor. I got countered hard today. How? urban evasion and a wall. Made me miss read where they were. That one trick costed me 2 gens and 15 seconds. Lol but spirit has no counters.
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By taking a perk you are making a gamble, because you don't know who you will be facing - who runs calm spirit just to counter one of the possible killers, anyway?
And if you happen to take Iron will and get lucky enough to face a spirit, then you gain a small advantage, because spirit is still a very good killer even without sounds. It is not direct counterplay. Stridor though, is the counterplay to the (much) smaller counterplay. And because the killer is the power role in the game, it makes that unbalanced and overpowered, because Iron Will is THE ONLY counterplay to spirit. I am fine with spirits who don't run Stridor.
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There are baby spirits and baby PHs. So what?
If I face a god-like Trapper who places traps in the best positions and catches everyone in them, and then I face a baby spirit who didn't get a hook the entire game, does that mean that Trapper is a better killer than Spirit?
And I never said killers don't take any skill. Spirit and PH require little, others require more dedication. And as long as tunneling/camping is an issue, then DS/Unbreakable (along with the overpowered side-effects) will remain the meta.
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Killer is not the power role in the game. Lets stop that there. Rng is the power role in the game. Hell survivors have more power then killer. Sorry but 4 places at once. So many good loops. Tons of second chance perks. Able to abuse perks way easier. Yet complaints about killers being unbalanced Secondly you contradicted yourself. "Who takes calm spirit to counter one killer". Yet you claim the only counter to spirit. A 110% movement speed killer. Who can be mind gamed in her phase walk by not running like an idiot. Or hell urban evasion or fixated. Or loop chaining and double backing to prolong the chase is a mediocre perk called iron will and this causes for outrage and a nerf and hundreds of forum posts a day about spirit needing a nerf? Okay.
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Every missplay leaves her as a 110% killer with a lengthy cooldown. She gets punished hard for every mistake which I think people forget.
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Wow, big shocker incoming - the killer is the one who sets the pace of the game, so that makes them the power role. Right? And the RNG does not matter, because it can favor either the killer or the survivors.
And yes, Iron Will is the only counter to spirit as of now. If the spirit has a decent headset, then there is no counterplay at all even with Iron will, because they can hear your footsteps and grass very clearly.
Stridor erases the only counterplay to her. Tell me, do you really think Spirits with stridor and at least two braincells will fall for doubling back, walking away or crouching, when they can hear you at all times? No, they won't.
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This topic is flawed from it's start as it's making claim that the killer is "always stronger" than a SINGLE survivor.
There's 4 survivors I would certainly hope the killer will always inevitably beat one in direct 1:1 scenarios. While the killer is looping with that one survivor 3 others can be working generators. It's not about that one survivor BEATING the killer, it's about them buying the most time possible. If the loop long enough 2 or 3 of 5 gens could be completed in that chase. Additionally the killer may need to catch one survivor 4 separate times if they have second chance perks.
Against survivors who know what they are doing a killer will be lucky to get 1 or 2 people.
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"If the right conditions are met."
There's a difference between "the right conditions" and "chase music begins."
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This game revolves around gambles. You gamble when you take an unsafe hook, you gamble when you start working on a hex totem, you gamble when you run any loop with a LoS blocking wall.
Since you can't check every blade of grass for traps, you gamble when trapper chases you into grass. What you are talking about is just the illusion of counterplay. The fact that spirit turns every tile into a truly balanced 50/50 coin toss for either side and she's seen as unbalanced tells volumes as to how unbalanced this game is in the favor of survivors and the tiles that survivors can run.
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######### is with the trend in comparing trapper to spirit? did tru3 or someone say this???
Trapper has to setup traps, he has to plan out where he expects survivors to go, he has to take a RISK. Survivors, once they realize its trapper, can have someone easily keep track of him and disarm his traps as he places them and leaves. Spirit can stand still and simply wait to see what you do.
a. You stay at the loop - She phases when she sees this.
b. You try and leave the loop - She phases and hits you unless you have another loop; process repeats.
Trying and using the metaphor with coin toss and spirit on trapper is beyond wrong and disingenuous. I don't know if it was a streamer or someone who started this, but whoever said it is being a clown.
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The funny thing is that you literally outplayed yourself in your own comment.
"You can juke both of them" - "Predict their next move".
You literally just said that's it's a coin toss and has nothing to do with skill. Only guessing luck.
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You didn't listen for their breathing then. You're just bad, so you can't say that someone has counters, just because you got outplayed.
If both sides play perfectly, it's a coin toss, if not even a guaranteed hit for spirit.
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Its not luck, thats why good players juke baby spirits for multiple gens. Understanding the game, understanding your opponent, understanding the best plays for each character in that situation, all of this helps you make your prediction and execute your next move.
Even if its just luck then whats wrong with the survivor and killer having equal input? As opposed to M1 killer vs pallet where it’s all in survivor control?
That’s how a lot of competitive games work like fighting games, there is a lot of prediction. Not just “press button now im safe”
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Except that your options are much more than that. You've just revealed spirit's weakness in your assumption that there's only two choices to make. How does she stop you from trying to leave the loop and then doubling back to vault the pallet? After all, if you travel a certain distance away from the pallet, she has to phase to catch up to you. You use this to run back and then vault the pallet. There are also many other ways to outplay her, especially using windows and pallets that are out of sight of the spirit to make her think you vaulted them. The spirit has to react to your actions, otherwise she loses her power and is an m1 killer for a long period of time. Hexy's tournament shows that she has counterplay, even the strongest nurse players have some counterplay
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Your claim doesn't hold any water if it relies on the killer doing everything perfectly. Sure, some killers are easier to get value out of than others, but everything can be countered to some extent. You've got your choice of any four perks to help you out, and you've got a team you can work with. I know that cooperative teams can seem few and far between if you're not surviving with friends, but in some cases that's your best option. You don't need to escape every single chase to win the game, you just need to run the killer for long enough for the gens to get repaired. If survivors escaped from every chase without getting downed then no one would ever play killer. In your scenario, where the killer is doing everything perfectly, then you're not supposed to get away. Unless you're doing everything perfectly as well to keep it at a stalemate, then you're just getting outplayed. Your whole point here is "You can't do anything against a killer if they outplay you." You know why none of this is a problem? Because no killer is doing everything perfectly. You can have perfect moments in a match, but you'll never finish a match without screwing up at least once. Even the highest skilled killers screw up, the situation you've posed doesn't exist. No one is hitting every single hatchet, or placing every trap perfectly without it getting disarmed, or perfectly timing and aiming every shock, or positioning perfectly at every moment, or never missing a swing. Sure, if they somehow miraculously manage to be perfect for every moment of the game then you're going to get stomped, but in that in that case you don't deserve to win unless you're perfect too. They're just objectively more skilled at the game, it shouldn't be easy for you. Just like how some normal killer wouldn't stand a chance against a team of perfect survivors, it's just that they're more skilled than the killer. I'm not trying to insult your skill or anything, none of us would stand a chance against a perfect adversary, but that adversary is imaginary.
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Counterplay for me means chase interaction. Yes a lot of killers if played perfectly leave the survivor with no options. However against a huntress I can see what is going on, I can see if she is raising a hatchet I can dodge it, I can bait her into raising a hatchet at a pallet. I can see everything she is doing. Against a spirit I can't tell if she is phasing, I cant tell where she is or anything like that. Against a pyramid head, all he has to do is fake his power at a power at a pallet, I'm getting hit no matter what. If I drop it I get hit by his rites of judgement if I don't he instantly cancels it and I get hit normally. The only thing you could possibly do in that situation is 360 the killer and even then you won't make it far before he catches up. There is no interaction there. I don't like saying no counterplay that much, I would rather people say the killer is too oppressive in the chase.
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But one can argue that the gamble still is counterplay. because it kinda is, it's just not very engaging for many players since it isn't affected by skill very much.
Still, that's the argument of people who defend Spirit, which is understandable. Spirit does have counterplay, at least when you aren't injured.
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You know what Nurse,DS,PH and Spirit all have in common? They all have MIND GAMES with their power. They force the survivor to loop differently and they force survivor to make reads at every turn. The other common part in their powers is all of them zone by sheer fear of their power. Nurse & Deathslinger are countered by LOS blockers, otherwise Nurse can easily confirm hits in open field(which is why indoor maps like hawkin, lery, rotten fields, yamoka estate are really bad for her), Deathslinger does same thing, except he still gives you a chance to dodge his shot even when in the open and he is weaker in tilesets. Spirit and pyramid zone at loops and what makes them good at zoning is the fact their power provides limit to no feedback at loops. Obviously PH can only hit people out of position with his 115%, but Spirit in open can easily track survivors using scratch marks and sounds of pain if there are no windows or pallets to use as mindgames.
3/4 of killers have provide little feedback when their power will be used but the one killer that does(Nurse) does not change her strength as a killer. Imagine survivors complaining that they're forced to make reads when killers have been doing reads on semi-safe pallets and window vaults for years. Apparently making reads is guessing according to the survivor and that is unfair.
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This thread is dead why are you commenting.
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I've been saying this for this longest! Spirit is a product of what's wrong with looping! Survivor's don't like guessing or the fact that she keeps all information for herself, while most Spirit user's don't like having to mindgame like 90% of the killer roaster which is hoping that survivor's make a mistake after feeding them false information
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People generally don't think it's unfair when they're caught off guard (i.e. most stealth killers). People think it's unfair ("no counterplay") when their input could be done by a computer.
The most complaints arise when a killer can disregard opponent skill to a large degree, and this is most noticeable in chase, especially against killers such as Deathslinger or Spirit (maybe Blight? I haven't played against him personally and haven't seen much gameplay of him).
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True fact - Nurse actually has less counterplay than Spirit, it's just not as complained about because Spirit is so common and good Nurses are quite rare these days.
As for Pyramidhead...
You can see just the slightest step is enough to avoid his POTD attack, and ideally he needs you running in a straight line towards the pallet to get the hit, if he comes round at an angle thats what happens.
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People forget that counterplay shouldn't be necessary for every killer, especially when it is as boring as looping.
That, and some killers can't use their powers if they cant find you.
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Pyramid is really annoying because of the guaranteed hits. deathslinger is much more fair because since the harpoon hitbox is so small you can juke the shots a lot easier and if you get shot you can break the chain even at a window. Deathslinger counterplay relies on not being afraid of being shot and gaining as much distance as possible you juke a bit to encourage him to miss but mostly try to make distance.
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"Press a button to be safe" is not how dbd works.
Some pallets may be, but only a few.
And what's wrong with making it a 50/50? It's unfun. I wanna play a game where I can outplay a killer and have a chance and not get hit and be thinking like "I just guessed wrong".
Also keep in mind that against good player, it's not even a 50/50, more like a guaranteed hit
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