DS Punishes Well-Performing Killers
Maybe an unpopular opinion, but I don’t like the way DS is balanced and used right now. The perk is more-or-less intended to be an anti-tunnel perk, which I think is a good addition to the game. Unfortunately it’s being used offensively (in my matches at least) as a “screw you, I’m invulnerable for 60 seconds” especially when combo’d with Unbreakable.
I’ve had a few games lately in which I hook a survivor, hook one or two people after that, and STILL manage to get hit with a first’s DS. I’m clearly not tunneling, but I am snowballing. This perk should not counter a killer doing well.
I think DS should be reworked into a true anti-tunneling perk. Scott Jund’s idea at 5:25 for this fixes the perk while maintaining its strength. (https://youtu.be/v_vLlMdu1Sc)
Basically DS’s timer would be 30 seconds, but it would not go down in a chase; however, it deactivates if you begin progress on a generator—when you’re not being tunneled.
Survivors would be able to keep DS after 60 seconds if they’re being chased (which is still tunneling), and killers would no longer get hit with it when they’re not actively trying to tunnel someone.
Comments
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It’s an anti momentum perk. It’s not an anti tunnel perk. People refer to it as an anti tunnel perk to incorrectly justify why it belongs in the game.
Also I can’t tell you how many I’ve watched a killer just tunnel someone out of the game. So if I can throw myself in the line of fire and buy them even a couple of seconds, I will. If I get hooked and unhooked, and again can buy them a couple of seconds taking a hit, I will.
ive been called “toxic” because the killer thinks I’m “shoving DS in their face” while they’ve missed the forest for the trees of their own actions
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Well, now. If people cared less about "efficiency" or end screen result and cared more about the game, this wouldn't be an issue.
I know that I've also stated clearly that survivor and killer shouldn't be compared, but this one I cannot leave alone. Killers have access to Hex: Ruin, Pop Goes the Weasel, Thanataphobia, Sloppy Butcher, Surge and Dying Light. They all serve the purpose of SLOWING the survivor game. Survivors have Decisive Strike.
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Survivors have Decisive Strike...and Unbreakable and Deliverance, all three of which remove the need for another survivor to assist them in various situations and can also bring the team back from what would normally be a complete loss.
Also, are you really complaining about people caring about efficiency and the match results? You do realize this is a PvP game, right? Being efficient and trying to get good results is a crucial part of this and every other PvP game. Implying that the community and game would be better without that motive would be like thinking that chefs should focus on the texture of the plate and not the taste of the meal.
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Idk if that is quite fair.
Ruin isn't that great anymore, it's more a nuisance.
PGTW is a god-tier perk but it rewards you for hooking Survivors (your objective.) It doesn't reward the Killer with passive pressure or for losing.
Thana isn't good.
Dying Light is alright. Really good at near max stacks, but it won't help you win games, it'll just help you win harder, if that makes sense.
Sloppy is good.
Surge would be good without the cooldown. As it stands it's pretty meh.
Anyway, the point is, that if you look at the Devs reasons for nerfing Ruin and apply it to DS, DS should've been nerfed a long time ago.
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My problem isn't the motivation itself, just how people value it so highly that they stop having fun because of it. Efficiency is fine, but in a game where you take on the role of a vicious murderer who's purpose is to torture before a kill, I don't see why kills should be the only part that we as killers focus on.
And yes, I could have added more Survivor perks like Botany as healing helps slow downs and extends chases but I thought the point was made.
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Well, I never said they were GOOD perks......
But my point still stands. Both sides have perks who's sole objective is to slow the game of the other side. Be it beneficial to the user or detrimental to the opposing side.
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DS is tasty.
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DS isn´t even that great most of the time tbh. As survivor I get to use it rather rarely, and it´s even rarer for me to get hit by it as Killer.
As it stands now I think it´s mostly fine. The mechanic it provides is actually quite healthy for the game since it acts as a deterrant for the Killer not to "tunnel" too hard. Remember, Survivors wanna have fun too!
However, it becomes problematic if it´s stacked with Unbreakable and other so called "2nd chance perks". The synergy of the common survivor build is too strong imo, especially if several or all 4 survivors have those stacked.
I wish more people came to this conclusion - you can´t really compare the roles, they´re so vastly different DBD is 2 games in 1.
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Thank you for that. I knew that my thread about it would reach someone.
And you're right too about DS. It's a perk that a majority if survivors equip with the hopes of never using it. Same with Unbreakable. Those that do want to use them and force the situations are as bad as the killers who slug everyone and tunnel survivors because they "have" to kill.
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If you're a well performing killer, why are you complaining about a 5 second stun?
It seems to me, if you're performing well as a killer, you shouldn't worry about a little peck that hinders you for 5 laughable seconds.
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Firstly to the topic, I don't care about ds outside of egc. I don't tunnel or camp and when I get stabbed I eat it and move on (but the earlier the better -.-).
To your comment, what is left beside killing the opposition by now. To torture or terrorize? Survivor stopped being "scared" of the killer in maybe year 2 since this games' release.
I don't feel intimidating or scary when I play killer (only btw). Mostly you feel like the slightly faster fat kid trying to tap someone while playing catch after successfully plying hide and seek.
The immersion as killer is long gone thanks maybe due to the addition of magical immunities to hits and whatnot. But they are necessary to make this game fair since the motive of immersion was slowly replaced with the goal of action.
Atleast that was my impression of the game design at release, to be a playable horror movie from both sides. The survivor had to do everything to hide from the killer to avoid certain death and try to rescue already found survivors. The killer should feel like the all powerful monster from the movies.
But that couldn't work over long-term, so they had to adjustso that the game didn't die in its early stages and we end with the gameplay we have now, which is less horror movie "hide and seek" but more "you're it".
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Isn't that the point of perks? To hinder the opposing side to prevent them from performing too well? Jesus Christ.
By your logic Pop is also a perk that punishes well-performing survivors. Is that good? Yes, that's the point of the perk...
And no, the DS not-going down in a chase is a bad idea that will be exploited. Remember legion, and moonwalking to not be in a chase so deep wounds would go down? Yeah.
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I would love it if they added in ways to torture survivors before killing them, but you can't set fire to them or chop off limbs or even take a moment to tear out an unnecessary organ. The game doesn't give killers much to do. Spine Chill doesn't let stealth killers have fun with jump scares. I can't even spend the whole match entertaining myself with the killer's power because the power either spends most of its time in cool down or the cool down just breaks the flow; either way, I often forget whatever killer I'm playing can do anything other than swing their weapon.
Sticking survivors on hooks is a really boring mechanic, an uninteresting animation made worse by that really loud annoying scream, but even more boring is a slugged survivor crawling around on the ground.
I look forward to the day when there is a game that lets me take on the role of a vicious murderer. Until then, I guess I'm playing DbD.
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It's not about survivors cacking their pants everything a heartbeat ticks in their ears! It's about appeasing the Entity.
Look at the Emblem system. There is a lot more than just killing survivors. There is keeping them off generators, hurting and chasing them. Not just the kill.
But killers are forgetting that.
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Well, "torture" in DbD is a little different. Not to mention the outrage over that one GTA scene.
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While I agree that this could be exploited if it doesn't get made proximity sensitive instead of tr but the exploit by moonwalking would most probably not really work here.
Because the legion moonwalk was done with deep wounds and their bleed out timer at which end the survivor would lose a health state. When the timer of ds runs out against a moonwalker nothing happens but that the killer didn't get bloodlust and the survivor can keep running and so on to make distance. They don't have to mend to avoid going down, so no incentive to stand still after a certain amount of time which was the point of the exploit.
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Friday 13th would've been a game for you then. Squashing counselors heads, drowning the in toilets, roasting in fireplaces, shanking through beds or insides cabinets, stacking heads on spears and many more I don't know. Sadly it died due to licencing problems.
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Yeah DS in combo with other stuff is just bs, it basically multiplies its effectiveness.
The difference between running games with the meta vs without is night and day which I dont think the game should be like.
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Maybe because having to divide your attention to all that on 4 people at the same time is stressful (the most often heard "killer is harder" complaint).
So reducing their numbers became a priority over enjoying those aspects. Maybe also because survivor got more and more tools to prolong or avoid those things like being chase or hurt over the years. But please let's not start another killer vs surv and their respective perks argument.
I don't even play this game regularly anymore and just for fun in middle ranks. My goal is to get bp while providing the survs with an opposition they can fear/enjoy. I go for 8 spread hooks and if they still didn't manage to get 5 gens I will slowly start to kill them on after another without being overly oppressive to let them get the doors. Last surv gets hatch if they were not useless or toxic/cocky most of the game/after they noticed I play semi-nice.
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You shouldn't blame Killers if they want to end onesided games fast.
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DS is useless against well-performing killers. Hard tunnelers doesn't care about DS. They will eat it and tunnel you anyway. If you lose because of DS that means you not so well-performing.
As killer when survivor farm someone and I downed unhooked survivor quickly I most of the time pick him up to eat DS just to give him his second chance. If he have no DS or missed skillcheck, he goes back to the hook. Shame the unpatient rescuer.
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It's 5 seconds + another chase + another hit + another pick-up, so anything from 30 seconds upwards extra time for the survivor team.
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Not to mention if they get to a loop because of it.
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DS does not punish the best Killers but it destroys weak Killers.. if your chases are long then gettin stabbed by ds is very very bad... (and be weak i mean Killers who cant skip stupid Hitbox Loops and have to chase very long with no way to shorten it).
BHVR should stop tryin to balance core problems of the game with Perks (cuz lets be honest only rank 15-20 survivor RLY suffer from camping and they dont have access to many perks in the first place).
No Perk will solve the Problem of Rank 15-20 having a very low survival rate while rank 1-5 have a too high survival rate. Nobody would complain about ds if games would last 10mins but reality is if you play in reds you most likely have games around 5min mark while it also takes longer to down survivor + they can take more hits (dh / ds / bt).
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Here’s the thing, if you are snowballing and happen to come across someone with an active Ds, big deal. You are already obviously destroying the survivors and I don’t think one stun is gonna hurt that much. Oh and remember you can just leave them on the floor if they think they r invincible and start getting cocky. Not hard. Then you can easily come back to them later. I don’t think you have played with the old DS have you. That basically prevented you from hooking the obsessions unless a hook was nearby, and there was always a chance you could get stunned by non-obsessions randomly if a hook wasn’t nearby.
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Two things:
1) I never said they were GOOD.
2) I never said that DS was all survivors had.
I feel like I'm on repeat half the time I come onto these forums.
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If we're using your logic then NOED is a punishment for survivors performing well. Since their only real objective is to do gens and totems are only an optional thing.
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Your logic screams "killer main"
NOED rewards bad killers and punish good survivors then.
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Ohhhh ok, sorry about my hostility then. I thought you were taking a completely different stance
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I'm........
I'm used to it by now on these forums. Don't worry about it. At this rate, I'm heavily considering making a stream video where I explain all of my particular views and even putting it all on YouTube so people can understand what I'm saying a bit better.
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Hate to be 'that guy', but the point system says otherwise- and with that same logic, you can argue that you 'can't blame survivors for sitting on gens all game- they just wanted the game to end fast!' The game has more to it's emblem system then just kills for a reason- and that's also why Killers get less points for Moris. Literally the only known motivation for the Entity is that it lets killers do all of this because it likes feeding off the systematic pain and suffering of the survivors, and watching their Hope die out with their memories. That's why the game rewards drawn out games and multiple hooks more then a game that ends at five gens with four hooks. Granted, I don't think this means a game should last for 20+ minutes with things like Forever Freddy, or Impossible Skill Check Doctor- but there is a middle ground there to be had.
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A well performing killer doesn't care about a 5 second stun.
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But I did not once use the word "only". We'd also be just arguing fine points about perks like Self-Care technically slowing a killer's game as it gives survivors back a health state.
While I COULD make a full post listing all of this, sometimes just taking the implication is better.
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Fine point separated from my core point. And arguably no. 2 people for 16 seconds or however long it is, or one for double that.
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Yes, I know what you mean. But by dragging out a game, which is absolute unfun in most cases for me, I reward the other side for being bad, by giving them points and pips and maybe push them into a rank they don't belong to.
The rank system is still flawed in some points. Killers with instadowns or Plague still are at a disadvantage and are forced to play different to gain emblem points. Or look at survivors, the gen jockey may have done 4 gens alone and secured the escape for others, but still gets only a safety because he didn't go for rescues and chases but still contributed a lot for getting the exit gates powered.
I prefer taking a safety pip and ending it fast instead of dragging out a boring game for me. But I still unterstand the "lore" wise reasons to play with the prey.
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Came here to say the same thing.
Survivors taking a time out to do totems is like killers taking a timeout to chase someone else or leave slugged.
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Killers objective is to hook and kill survivors. Survivors objective is to complete 5 generators. Survivors performing well isn't cleansing all the totems, it's getting generators done as fast as possible.
All I'm saying is DS and NOED both:
- Punish killers/survivors performing well
- Can be avoided
Cleansing totems for a perk that may not be used by the killer is wasting time for the survivors.
Great minds think a like lol
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Because it ends the snowball and completely resets the game allowing room for the survivors to regroup and heal. What perk does the killer have that literally resets the pace of the game?
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You've confused me about the DS part mate since killers don't use DS. I'm not complaining about NOED lol I'm just stating facts.
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Yes but Noed punished survivor AFTER the game is done (you know doin gens). While DS punishes you for doing your objective.
Its not the same
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People complain about DS (i hope) play 4-5min games(red ranks). "just" eating a ds will mean you lose all your pressure (you know cuz the survivor can do gens right away + team survivor does not have to send another person to safe = 2 person doing gens instead of being busy.
And unless you play a anti looping killer catching the survivor reaching a Hitbox Loop (you know the ones survivor can run tighter then killer) = 30sec more before you can maybe catch him and all of this while 3 survivor do gens...
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noed will only ever get you one extra hook it isnt even that great of a perk
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Wasnt it nerfed before ruin though lol. It isn't a get out of jail card anymore.
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Thing is once the killer completes their objective (killing survivors) their game is done. Whereas once a survivor completes their objective (completing gens) they still have to do another objective (opening the door).
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Ruin is amazing if you can, you know, pressure gens (you’re actual primary objective, not “getting hooks”).
dont care to go point by point on the others.
if you actual look at the multiple reasons why ruin was nerfed, you’d see that can’t be applied to DS. And, oh yeah, DS WAS ALREADY NERFED :). If you’d like old DS back, I’d very much welcome it
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You’re right. Unfortunately, Survivors are obsessed with stabbing you in the back, even if it doesn’t accomplish that much.
Also, the “it’s only five seconds!” argument is BS because you still have to catch up to the Survivor (you’re already looking at 10-15 seconds here). They can get to a loop or have someone bodyblock for them. If this happens, then that 10-15 seconds can easily turn into something like 30-40 seconds. 40 seconds lost all because you played well. Survivors don’t care though, they want to play the exact same way against every Killer and get super sick plays for some insignificant montages.
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It got changed, I wouldn't say it was an outright nerf. It got buffed in some ways and nerfed in others.
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I mean, good luck pressuring gens with a perk that can be destroyed.
I would prefer Old DS tbh, at least you can juggle people and it was only three seconds.
Allow me to remind you why Ruin was nerfed,
1.) Incredibly high use in Red Ranks and high use overall. This applies to DS.
2.) Ruin creates passive pressure without the Killer having to do anything. For DS, the mere presence of an Obsession will force many Killer's to respect DS, not knowing whether or not Survivors actually have it.
3.) Ruin overly punished new players and was inconsistent. DS punishes newer players who may not know about it (and it can be abused) and it does not actually stop real tunneling.
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It's not about the 5 second stun. If I've been rapidly hooking people and get hit with a DS 5 seconds before it runs out it's a huge momentum killer. I either have to commit to chasing down this survivor (which will take a lot more time than 5 sec) or switch targets and get denied a hook. I wasn't tunnelling, my only mistake here was hooking people so fast I wasn't paying attention to when they were getting unhooked. The price I pay for thay is a massive swing in momentum.
I don't even mind DS in its current state. It's just that your statement is so devoid of reality it's not even wrong. It's just asinine.
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You have to be hooked to use it. That is a major nerf.
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