Maybe Generator SPEEDS Aren't The Problem
One thing that it feels like every killer on the forums is complaining about at some point is to do with generator speed and how quickly they are completed. Now granted, 2 survs on a generator with a Prove Thyself and a BNP Toolkit can be pretty quick, but that's not what I want to focus on with this thread.
What I instead want to focus on is an observation that I've had with a LOT of DbD content creators and their killer games. I've noticed a disturbing lack in kicked generators in their games, especially when compared to my own play. I see then walk right by generators that are mostly complete and I internally scream "KICK the DAMN GENERATOR." But this got me thinking, is it the fact that killers aren't kicking generators outside of Pop Goes the Weasel in general? Or the fact that regression takes so long to have a noticeable effect on a generator?
Even the reworked Hex: Ruin, reworked not nerfed, gives a fantastic regression to survivors for ditching a generator, but even then it's only at half the rate that they fix the thing with. Now granted that you can keep survivors, especially twitchy solo players, off a generator for a good, long while. The issue is though that damaging a generator currently gives you a quarter of the survivor's progress per second and can be completely cancelled by a small tap. The character model doesn't even have to TOUCH the generator to cancel this!
Now it may just be because I'm a very special type of killer who also runs Surveillance and hasn't pushed into red ranks for several reasons, but I personally find kicking generators to be fairly effective at stalling out survivors. Not so much against better teams, but against the average assortment of solo players, I find it brutal.
Question is then is this: is it time that the regression speed of a generator be increased slightly and make it more enticing for a killer to damage a generator? Killers need to apply pressure, so what better way than depriving a Survivor team of their objective!
Now, I'm not at all saying something like a 50% increase, as Ruin would now be faster at regressing than a Survivor just working on a generator, and let's be honest, for a lot of people generators feel too slow on the Survivor's side but quick on the killer's and that maybe just changing something that people already don't like isn't the way to go. Buffs, not nerfs. I'm thinking more along the lines of a 10% increase, 20% at most as anything further may be a bit too far and how some killers can traverse the map in mere seconds.
So, who's up for more interactivity between sides? Killers kick generators more and the game gets back some of the tactical element! This should also slow down games so that more people can play the killers they WANT to play, rather than just sheer bandwagoning onto whatever's the strongest killer that takes the least amount of effort to learn.
I'll see you in the fog.
Comments
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They don’t kick generators because they waste time doing that when they can be chasing survivors. Like you said the regression is so small there is no point in wasting your time to kick it. I think you make a good point. Increase the regression speed but I’m afraid even at your max 20% increase that it still won’t be enough because all it takes is a tap to make it all meaningless.
Let’s say they increase the regression to 50% more. In red ranks where survivors are more experienced. They will still do generators in your face while you’re chasing someone else within 15 feet of you. If the killer stops the chase goes to kick the gen. The survivor working on the gen will just run away and wait for the killer to kick the gen and now it comes to which survivor is the killer going to chase now. If he switches survivors then the first survivor being chased will just take over the gen, if the killer decides to continue the chase with the same survivor then the survivor that was doing the gen will just come back and continue the gen and the kick of the gen was useless. Now the killer just wasted time kicking a gen instead of trying to end a chase faster which hurts the killer a lot.
The only time I seem to find kicking a gen somewhat useful besides trying to use pop or surveillance is if a gen has half or more progress on it and Im not in a chase and I know for sure no one is near it. If 2 or more people are there it’s a complete waste of time. This situation is rare because as a killer you always want to be in a chase and trying to down someone.
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Downing a Survivor will pull another survivor from a gen = more value than kicking a gen so it regresses at 1/4 charge per second (surv repairing add 1 charge per second).
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I can approach this question as someone who plays killer at a high level and also plays in an optimal 4 man SWF.
Base gen regression is not worth the time spent kicking the gen at a certain point. You are not stopping a 75% gen by doing a normal kick if someone else is in the area. ESPECIALLY against a 4 man. I can't think of a bigger time waster than kicking gens without Pop. In fact, we'll often bait killers into repeatedly kicking a gen, running us off, and chasing us in an area of the map while someone else does the gen we actually want to get done. It's a common strat of ours in late game scenarios. "Hey, look over here!" Oops, different gen got done and the person you're chasing had Adrenaline.
Overall I don't think gen speed is an issue. The issue is map size and an overabundance of safe tiles. My team shouldn't be able to pre-throw pallets for the first 3 gens and never even feel squeezed on resources while we 4 man out. That shouldn't be a viable strat, but it is on 90% of the maps if your team is slamming gens.
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The issue isn't gen speeds at all, it's that killers start with zero pressure. Just look at Hexy's tournament. Otzdarva had a game where he spent two minutes without a chase. Two minutes. Otzdarva. A killer main who plays this game for a living had trouble finding survivors. That should pretty much never happened.
At the beginning of the game, survivors feel too safe to complete gens. So all the pressure is on the killer to start their first chase, and finish it. And that is the problem. In the early game, killers lack any pressure. Some killers are better at applying that early pressure than others. It's why Ghostface, who can mark a single survivor and get an insta-down right out the gate, is higher tier than Myers who can make everyone exposed for a period of time but takes a lot longer to do it.
Once you start building pressure, the game shifts back toward the killer. Gens slow down naturally.
What killers really need is help finding survivors early on, and a little early-game pressure.
I do agree, however, that generator regression just isn't rewarding enough. I think kicking a gen should instantly regress the generator by 5%. You'd have to buff surge (Pop would probably stay about the same) and definitely buff Overcharge (it needs it even if regression isn't buffed). But it wouldn't really solve the problems killers often face.
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i would just say shrink maps increase regression times, thats how i'd do it
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That is a very good point. Survivors are 100% capable of hiding for the entire duration of early game perks like Corrupt. We saw that multiple times in BoTB. Even perks like Whispers or Spies only go so far. Nobody enjoys a hide and seek simulator.
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Kicking a gen without pop is literally pointless. swf will call over a buddy to finish a 90% gen and you just extended your chase time by potentially 1 minute +
Base gen regression is 1/4 of a solo survivors repair speed.
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This. Strong tiles and big maps are the problem.
SWF exacerbates this issue by being able to constantly and consistently communicate/rely on each other, but Solos who know how to do gens and split up are almost as dangerous.
Unfortunately, a sizable portion of the player base are solo/2 man Survivors who mess around and/or make mistakes constantly. Those people need those safe loops and big maps to have a chance at winning and telling people to just "put in the hours and practice" isn't going to make a lot friends.
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I'm going to somewhat echo what others are saying in that getting pressure started is difficult. If the first person you find is competent at looping/running then the game can feel like it's over if they're not making huge mistakes and your killer can't down them quickly like Deathslinger, Pyramid Head, or Spirit.
The first down (or just injuring a bunch of people so they'll stop doing gens and heal) is just so crucial to get asap because until that happens there's 3 people working on gens. Even just holding down W away from gens being worked on and throwing some pallets can be incredibly detrimental for the killer if the other 3 are just cranking out gens.
Of course, this is assuming all the survivors are finding and hopping on gens efficiently and that the person being chased isn't making more than a couple of mistakes, which shouldn't be assumed with randoms. The game can quickly snowball uncontrollably in the killer's favor if there are 1-2 people hooked and more injured or getting chased.
A couple of proposed solutions:
Corrupt intervention base kit.
The generator repair speed penalty when several survivors are working on a gen is made global when there are more than 3 gens left. Ex: 3 survivors working on 3 different gens will all get the -15% penalty to repair speed per survivor. Might need to be lower for people not doing the same gen. Edit: If anyone is on a hook this should be disabled.
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I think you hit it right on the head. Map size is a tremendous indicator of what kind of match is going to be. I had one match on a large map where I did almost a whole lap around the map without finding any greens being worked on, only to finally return to my starting location and have the gen completed in my face. Smaller maps definitely have a greater sense of urgency to them, both as a killer and survivor.
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When I play killer I rarely kick a Gen anymore without PGTW because it's kind of meaningless to me. I could kick it, but someone could easily just be hiding nearby to undo that damage within seconds of me leaving. I'll sometimes use Overcharge in hopes they'll mess up and give me a little more regression, and a chance to know they were still there, but kicking a gen is a waste for me. Not only that, but I've noticed these past few days, I barely see any survivors doing Gens together anymore. I always run Discordance, and I'd say 2 in 5 matches it activates. So, I tested a theory and started using Tinker's instead of Discordance, and wouldn't you know it, while chasing a survivor, 3 Gens activated the perk after a couple of seconds of each other. It's getting to a point now that applying pressure, since people love saying that, is getting tricky. Not every killer can easily get to gen after gen, and sure, downing someone would apply pressure in theory, but again, gens are becoming more important even over saving now. An idea I had for kicking gens could be that a base kick (No perks affecting it) could apply a speed debuff to the gen when they try work on it, maybe a 10% slowdown for X seconds. PGTW could have a similar %, but a longer slowdown effect. Increasing gen times isn't going to solve much, other than annoy survivors because let's face it. 80 seconds doing a Gen is pretty boring and increasing it would be torture. But who knows what solution would be right these days.
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The problem is more that Killers have to run one of two specific perks OR hardcore slug and camp to create enough map pressure to keep Survivors off gens.
Perks like Overcharge and Huntress Lullaby probably need to be looked at to provide more viable options for gen regression perks. As well as the Devs looking to make more anti-gen perks in general
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i love being on Mother's Dwelling and having Tinkerer proc 3 times in 10 seconds
the best feeling
i quit using the perk because it was just a morale killer, you see it proc that many times in short time frame.. it's just a defeating feeling. pathetic game design
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Even not in SWFs there's often someone that comes running along just to quick repair. I use Overcharge to get some value out of it sometimes. If I don't run something like Overcharge or Dragon's Grip there's really not a point like you said, without Pop.
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That's it. I can't stress enough how gen speed or even regression speed aren't the problem. Maps are the problem. ######### coldwind with intertwined loops is a great example. There are maps that I can run a killer for 30s without dropping a pallet, it's dumb and the killer can do so much against it.
That's the reason I'm learning nurse. F. Loops. F. Pallets. F. Jungle gyms.
But yes, maps are the real problem in this game. They're way too safe when the survivor(s) know how to loop.
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Red Forest is kind of an exception though. It's just so big that's the one danger with playing it. I play mostly stealth characters that are pretty slow so I know what you mean. Freddy, Billy, and Demo players probably aren't phased.
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Kicking a gen does have value but only when you know you are chasing the survivor away from it with no other survivor around.
This is another reason I love perks like whispers because it lets me know if they actually left.
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Yeah, entering a match wich you think in the first second "ok, how will I 3-gen this map" is really frustrating, but is something you get used to as a killer. Planning on how to "lose".
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I have this before
But the regression rate should be increased but not be the same as progression
That is the reason I don't kick gens much
I have yet to figure out how to articulate a change for regression rates
Plus I would like to see an additional effect on Brutal Strength
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No, gen speeds are fine, kicking gens would do pretty much nothing unless it was regressing at the same pace as reparing which is a really bad decision. If you kick a gen survivors are trying to force you're wasting your time no matter how fast it regresses. You can only gen good regression on gens if survivors completely leave the 50%+ finished gen you just kicked which only potato survivors do.
It's the early game that is problematic. First 2-3 gens basically get done for free since killer needs to get the ball rolling in a map filled with pallets while beiing pressured by 4 survivors split on 4 gens at the same time without anything else to do. Slow survivors down in the early game so that they can't get free gens with a perfect 3 gen split and gen speeds are golden.
Once killer gets his first 2 hooks, gens slow down a lot as long as he can keep up juggling survivors so either fixing early game or lack of pressure from saved survivors is what gen times need. If those problems are fixed, several other issues will lessen in impact such as tunneling (not saying it's going be gone but tht killers will feel less preasurred to tunnel in attempt to slow the game down) to better manage last 3.
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Rotten Fields
Ormond
Groaning Storehouse
Midwich
Badham
Haddonfield
Azarov
Fractured Cowshed
Disturbed Ward
All are trash maps where the gens are so spread out, "pressure gens" becomes a joke. Red Forest definitely is not an exception.
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Gentapping needs to be removed from the game, also enable kicks to remove a certain percentage of genprogress right away to make damaging gens somewhat worthwhile.
It's unacceptable that a survivor can touch a gen for half a second to undo a kick that took 3 seconds to perform. Survivors should be forced to work on a gen for at least as long to enable progress again which means that they should be forced to repair for 3 seconds to stop the regression effect.
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I also think that gen affected by Ruin should still regress even after Ruin is cleansed
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What is the problem with gen tapping? Kicking a gen that someone is right next to makes no sense. There are basically two scenarios that make sense for kicking a gen:
- You have a perk for kicking gens that can provide you value.
- The gen has some progress on it, you have reason to believe there are no survivors in the area, and you're not in a chase.
In neither situation is gen tapping an issue. If the former, you're theoretically getting value out of the kick even if a survivor taps the gen. If the latter, you should be able to regress the gen enough to make the kick worth it. If you kick the gen as you're chasing a survivor around a tile and they tap it as they run by, that's just a good lesson not to kick the gen when you shouldn't.
Base kit Overcharge or base kit (weaker) PGTW are just rewarding highly mobile killers that in theory should already benefit more from kicking gens. That doesn't do anything for killers like Deathslinger that people already want to have more map pressure. I'm just imagining how terrible it would be to face a Freddy with these as base kit...
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None of those maps are bad if you look around a map first thing and take a look at gen placements. Take Ormond for example: It looks spread out evenly but it is not. There are three close to one side of the map and three on the other, with one always in the middle. This means you can four gen if you move quickly and run Pop (and I'll admit, get lucky on chases because chases are hard there). Haddonfield is the other hard case, because of its unusual layout and decent hiding spots. I think you're problem might be people going mid. Most maps are easily bisected. My best advice would be to run more stall perks or just look for the three gen areas. I divide maps like this:
Green Areas: Go to guard area. Usually has 2-4 gens very closely together, patrol this beat regularly and try not to stray too far from it unless you're in a promising chase. Injured survivors are always promising.
Yellow Areas: Go here when all of your Green Area is clear and unworked on, or if you detect movement for sure and you do not think you have been spotted too soon.
Red Areas: Ignore these completely. This guarantees that at least 1-2 gens will fall in this area, and sometimes even 3, but you simply cannot guard every generator everywhere and still chase. Just let them go. It's better not to stress about them at all, even if your friction is minimal in the beginning.
With this sectioning in mind, Pop probably is the go to for any character you play. It'll ensure your green areas stay clear even against decent teams. If you're going up against a SWF with OoO then it's always a gamble, but barring that it's always done me well.
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One of the reason why i don't use corrupt. It's hugely overrated imo.
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Yeah gen speeds aren't the issue i agree its 100% chase times that are the issue.
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When I started playing survivor, I was surprised by how slow and boring the gen repairs felt, because the gens seemed to pop so fast when I was killer. I agree that just slowing them down more isn't really the answer.
As someone who's bad at both sides, I think the match often gets decided around the time the third gen pops, and whoever has the upper hand at that point tends to keep it unless they make a mistake.
If you're looking for a solution where there's more of a chance for reversal in the last half of the game, I don't think universal buffs or nerfs would do that -- I think you'd want more of a dynamic response where whoever's losing at the midpoint gets a buff. In that case, though, the game becomes less strategic and more free-wheeling. I'd be okay with that, since I think the game's more fun when it's a little random, but I know a lot of people would hate it.
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Don't touch gen regression speed. That's a terrible idea. I like long games as survivor, and I tend to kick gens regularly as killer (just for points, mostly), and what you are saying would basically further kill any kind of stealth around completing generators in DbD.
I played against a Huntress on the game in recent memory who had almost a three gen, and the match took what felt like hours longer just because of how much the gens would regress between when she came to check them and by the time one of the two survivors left came to work on it again. It's painful to know that you're playing all of your cards right and showing that your knowledge of routes and paths is better than the killer's but be trapped in the same match just because gens regress when kicked. It probably wasn't any fun for her, but game mechanics told her that she should keep trying even if that wasn't going to prove her skill. I eventually escaped through the doors (after Meg bled out and Huntress closed the hatch). Don't make experiences like that more painful for everyone involved.
Real solutions to "genrush" come in the form of preventing pallets from being used the instant players load into the match (eg. an untethering animation for every one that would "prime" pallets for use (this also prevents stupid survivors from dropping important pallets early) or causing survivors that sprint to alert the killer of their presence through a loud noise indicator if they're far enough away and the killer hasn't started a chase yet / hasn't had a chase within the past 60 seconds). Changes like that would definitely affect how survivors behaved around gen completion, becoming less inclined to just run to a gen and sit on it without preparing any escape options before the gen interaction.
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Yeah regression has always been one of the major problems.
If a survivor puts 60 out of 80 charges into a generator, that generator will be staying at 60 charges without some kind of regression.
Base regression is very bad. 1/4th the speed and survivors can stop it with a tap. Chances are other survivors will know about the gen and stop it from regression, especially in SWF. Maybe not so much in solo if its at the edge of the map.
That's why Ruin and Pop are so strong. Ruin gives you the fast, automatic regression and Pop just forces a hard chunk off of 25%. Even surge is something, hitting 3 gens theres more of a chance of survivors not knowing about 1 regressing, but then surge will sometimes only affect 1 or 0 gens.
Ideally you want something to help with regression unless you're planning a snowball build.
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same tbh, if i use corrupt i always run whispers
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Shelter Wood is great example of a map that has few strong tiles, but very few pallets where throwing pallets left and right will result in survivor running out of resources rapidly. Do you want entire map game to be consistent of less than 7 pallets on every map? Its not very good solution.
Another proposed solution is to make the tilesets themselves less safe in which we look at a map like Midwitch Elementary School where majority of the pallets are playable(Unsafe) and the pallets do not connect into each other to create powerful loops. What you produce is a map where the entire map revolves around holding forward and going around in rectangular circles because of the fear of going to a pallet and getting bloodlust at a unsafe pallet. Also, there are not many strong window vaults to show looping skill expression, so this solution is not exactly Ideal.
Upping base regression another problem that the game avoids correctly at the moment. That problem is 3 generator strategies. A classic 3 generator map is Azaroth Resting place that from birdeye view looks like big I or L. Upping base Generator regression discourages the killer to chase and encourages them to camp generators until a single survivor slips out of position, if they do, you put them on a hook and than continue to patrol 3 generators. The reason why people consider 3 generator strategies has to do with map size because a way to shrink maps is to create 3 generator strategies to artificial shrink the map and Azaroth Resting place is classic "Big vertical map". This is not healthy gameplay and should definitely not become meta or viable in any margin.
The only way they can ever achieve good gameplay on both sides is by making strong killers that have 3 out of the 6 parameters which are as follows: Instant down, generator slowdown/survivor secondary objectives, Strong aura-reading, Undetectable, Strong & Consistent Mobility and Anti-loop. There is 7th parameter which is Mori which allows you to skip hook states from 0->3 instantly or 0->2(in case of the offering) but its another one of those mechanics that shouldn't be implemented in the game as it greatly harms survivors gameplay satisfaction. The issue is that whenever devs either make strong killer powers or add-on to reflex one of the 6 strengths, the community goes all fragile which really sets the game back and makes the killer a pretty big joke.
Gen speed would be less of an issue if the killers were really strong in alternative reality but community regresses from that reality.
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I agree
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Most killers dont kick gens becouse it takes 2 or 2.5 seconds to do and hiding survivor can undo that in 0.1 seconds.And regression is pretty bad.It takes 4 seconds to regrese 1 charge from a gen(1 second).Its not like breaking pallets which are broken for the rest of the match.Sometimes it ia worth it but survivors can undo regression vary quickly.They should either make regression faster or survivors needing to be on gens for like 5 seconds to stop regression.
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As said before, it is the safe loops and tiles that the survivors have. Depending on the killer you're going against, especially a low-tier one, these loops become unstoppable and the killer can't do anything besides waste time looping it and then breaking the pallet.
By the time you can even get your first hit, you've lost 3 gens.
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Chases with normal Killers become super tedious once survivor learn certain loops (the ones survivor can run tighter then killer cuz smaller hitboxes). There is zero counterplay and its silly gameplay of running in circles for 2-3 rounds before you might get a hit (slow killers like huntress have to insta stop chasing once a survivor reaches such a loop).
I doubt they will adjust killer / survivor hitbox. ..
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As someone who can call themselves both a survivor and killer main, gen speeds need to regress at half the speed a survivor can repair it under normal circumstances
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If I chase a survivor away from a gen and kick it, I spend 3 seconds kicking that generator.
Now the survivor has 12 extra meters of distance on me in a chase, and in that time a potential 9 seconds was spent on other gens. Kicking a gen just lost me 6 seconds and a chase is longer.
Now a survivor can tap my gen in a microsecond and I'm not gaining anything from that time spent either.
I even stopped using PGtW on Deathslinger and swapped to Surge because I felt like the time I spent going to kick gens was losing me games, and being able to shoot from a distance meant I wasn't even close to the gens I was chasing people off.
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Add Instant regress to kicking a gen, 3-5% might suffice. This would be a simple solution to make kicking gens "worth it" or a considerable option.
To get rid of gen tapping, I have some unneccessarily complex idea.
- A buffer will be applied to a generator when kicked. it starts at 1 charge and can go up to 5 charges. When the gen regresses, the buffer goes up at the same rate the generator regresses. ( I dont see why Ruin shouldnt speed this up)
- When a survivor repairs the generator, the buffer will lose charges at the same rate as the generator is repaired. (Alternatively, the Buffer regresses at a steady rate of 1 charge per second as long the generator is being repaired)
- Regression only stops once the buffer is depleted to 0 charges.
- This means a survivor will suffer a "-25% repair penalty" while the buffer is still up and still applying the regression effect. ( This might be a problem with the current ruin)
I think my Idea could also backfire and make survivors focus gens down more in one sitting. But im just a Killer, what do i know about survivor mentality?
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Kicking a gen insta regresses it by 10%.
Its just not worth it when 3 survivor meanwhile repair gens for the same amount you just regressed.
If they touch the Repair system it should not only help red rank Killers but also help rank 15-20 survivor doing their stuff faster.
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Not so much even downing and hooking a survivor. They have 1 minute time before hitting stage 2, which is well enough time fir survivors to.complete a gen.
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I think the actual completion speed is less of a problem than the Killers ability to contest gens. There´s less than a handful of the roster that can actually pressure gens without walking from gen to gen for 40+seconds.
This is why speed is brought up imo, as from the Killers POV it feels too fast.
The current gen-kick mechanic just isn´t worth it most of the time. What you stated is true, the 2,5 second kick can be undone faster than the eye can see, and for the regression to have any impact the gen has to be not touched for extended periods of time.
I´d suggest to double the regular kick regression to 50% of progression speed. With this, ruin would regress just as fast as regular repair speed. On top of that, gen-tapping should be adressed. I´m convinced anything less wouldn´t be impactful enough to justify putting ressources into changing it.
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It's funny that you mention killers seeing them go by fast, because I've had SO MANY times on the survivor's side where they're slower than me after I wake up of a morning.
It is a matter of perspective, which is why I am also saying to AVOID generator total speed, but also to indeed promote more interaction between both sides.
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I like @Raptorrotas's suggestion more since Pop Goes the Weasel is a perk, and killers should still have SOME incentive to run it. Not that they need it currently, but 10% base would make Pop almost obsolete.
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I don't know I've had 2 survivors out of play and survivors can still pop gens because it's impossible to pressure all 4 at once, and the whole if you get rid of one it cuts their survival chance I don't believe if there's 5 gens then yeah it would but if there's 3 or less getting rid of one does nothing. Yeah I've noticed gens go faster if more than one person is on the gen but I know if gen speed is the problem, I feel the good killers you can always get 4ks do that because they know how to pressure survivors and gens. But I also feel certain maps that have gens spread far apart from each other hurts the killer because you can teleport, phase, blink, chainsaw or frenzy you pretty much have to give up a certain percentage of the map
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I don't think gens or maps are the problem! I can agree with you about gen regression speed, because it'll probably wane PGTW out of the meta.
But I don't think gen speeds or regression is the problem. I think the problem lies within the viability of some killers and there lack of map pressure!
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Even still, a good portion of these killers CAN still come back from a bad start. I've had 2 matches on Haddonfield as Pig where two generators popped, one just before first hook and the other before I even got a hit of a survivor.
Terrible start, right? Yeah. I didn't feel great.
Still won tho. One was a 4k, and the other was at least a 2/3k. Just goes to show to never give up and that Altruism CAN get you killed!
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As it stands, kicking generators is pointless without PoP. The base regression is far too low to make it worthwhile, especially when a simple tap cancels the regression.
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Regression is 1/4 the speed of a solo survivor repairing unaided..that's the issue with that
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Stopped reading after the not so humble brag.
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