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People complain about Spirit and Deathslinger
Hon, have you heard of Hag?
Hags been the queen of camping and tunnelling since her release.
Sure if you prepare a build to counter her, with a flashlight and Urban Evasion, its easy.
If you dont have one or two of those things, every game against Hag is boring and unfun.
At least Spirit and Deathslinger offer an interactive chase.
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Camping with hag is a play style though. A play style which any killer can adopt, it’s just that it’s easier for hag. I wouldn’t say being zoned and mindlessly running around is an interactive chase.
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I rarely see hags camping, and I only think I've seen 1 that tunneled. It's just so hard, because hag has no control over who triggers her traps unless she is in a direct chase. What's she gonna do, teleport to the unhooked survivor, see that it's them, and politely apologise as she resets her web and leaves them alone (probably to go work on a gen)?
Edit: Also, Spirit and Slinger DONT have interactive chases. That's why people hate them. That is literally the hate-basis.
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Tunneling is a way for 115% killers. Hag is 110, she can't chase whoever she wants. She can only rely on someone step into her trap. She can't tunnel on purpose with this conditions.
She doesn't camp as the other killers. She always away from hook so you have to plan saving little earlier than always because you need time to crouch under hook.
How can Hag be boring? She gives you a fear of running and walking. Her traps jumscare you. How can you be bored by this? Unfun, maybe, but not boring.
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Anti-hag gameplay: Sprint all over where you think her traps are and make her rebuild her entire web, then let the next person do it after you get unhooked!
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This is just another case of survivor players refusing to learn and adapt their play-styles to become better players.
Both Spirit and Deathslinger have similar counters. They’re both 110%, if they don’t use their powers correctly/effectively then they are 110% for XX seconds.
Dropping safe pallets early in chase will 8/10 times force them to break the pallet as well windows hard counter Spirit while Deathslinger has a 50% to get a confirm hit.
(Also I can never see Hag being on the same level as Spirit and Nurse but not better than Doctor, Freddy, Pyramid Head & Blight)
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I mean, to be fair, a lot of their 'counterplay' is more so from sitting on gens and playing stealthy. And doing that usually requires certain builds and a lot of coordination between Survivors to get gens done quickly- which solo queue doesn't have, and that casual SWFs really just don't care enough to do. To add to it, there's a lot of complaints about how 'boring' it is to play against stealth (to the point where people will literally bring moris for Blendettes), so it really becomes a 'screwed if you do, screwed if you don't' situation.
Plus, it does take what a lot of people really like out of DBD- which is chases. Maybe it's just what I've seen, but a lot of players like the fair loops and mind games. Survivors like being able to outplay the killer because they played smart and not just running in a circle around safe loops all game- just like how killers don't want to hold W against a safe loop and would probably rather try to do some mindgames at something like an LT wall. Killers like Spirit and Deathslinger usually take that part out of the equation for survivors if the killer player is decent. (Or in Deathslinger's case, also if he isn't at high walls.) Just like how a survivor used to be able to run infinites and not be stopped, a good Spirit or Deathslinger absolutely decimates the 1v1, and even a good Survivor can't do much about it without support from their team.
Honestly, I don't mind them- I find Spirit fun to play as and against, and I find Deathslingers frustrating purely because the ones I like to face have a tendency to tunnel (and it always happens on games I dont have DS on...), but they're not bad or unbalanced. I could definitely see why people would complain about them though.
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If Hag would be as common as Spirit or Deathslinger, you would see the same complaints. Which are also reasonable. But luckily, Hag is also not fun to play for many people, so she is rare.
While the Killers you named dont have reasonable counterplay, I take those over a Hag every time. In fact, the counterplay against Hag is to have Urban Evasion or a Flashlight, which is eh. (And meanwhile, a Team with Flashlights and Urban Evasion could demolish a Hag simply because they have those Perks and Items... Hags Power is not really the pinnacle of game design)
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I mean suuure...but nobody plays hag....
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I will add her to the list of Killers Survivor want to get nerfed:
Spirit Deathslinger Pyramid Head Freddy Doctor + Hag
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So we gonna have a list of things killers want nerfed from survivors too or not?
Spirit, Slinger, and PH need changes to make their 1v1 weaker and 1v4 stronger. Doctor is just annoying because of the constant screaming but also, not the best 1v1 unless you're a god and not a good 1v4 either. Freddy is overall an amazing killer but just wake up and he's fine lol. Finally, Hag, ensure she can't place traps DIRECTLY under a hooked survivor, and then another 5 around them, to make sure they can be saved and actually play the game, and we good (at least imo). She has counterplay, though it takes coordination to do.
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I don't think Hag is that bad. A single diligent survivor with a flashlight can make my life a misery and if two get them, I'm almost certainly going to get skunked.
The trick to beating her, aside from flashlights is to stealth as much as possible. So few teams seem to realize that you can just buttscoot over her traps - and the ones that do tend to crush me.
She's high tier, but compared to some of the things Nurse or Spirit can do, she isn't a monster.
That all said, the upper tier killers feel okay right now. I don't think anyone needs a nerf. Even Spirit and Nurse have some pretty solid counterplays, watching videos of the better killer players.
Hag main here. She is just fun. One of the few killers that feels like she can actually surprise or scare survivors.
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I hate Hag so much. I hate her more than any other killer when I play survivor.
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This is why I think Hag needs a review.
She’s completely miserable to go against without Urban or a flashlight, but I’ll also agree that flashlights are far too strong a counter for her.
She swings to 1 one of either 2 polar opposites. Impossible and miserable, or completely neutered.
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I'm hesitant to let the BHVR butchers at my favorite killer. As it stands, she is just insanely fun to play - intuitive, but a surprisingly high skill ceiling.
She is strong, doesn't have many weak maps and adds a bit of unpredictability and suspense without being Spirit. She also has several effective counterplays that weirdly, not even high level players seem to use (especially the simple act of crouching over traps).
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She doesn’t need to be butchered. Tweaked, so she’s not so awful, and for Hag players not he awful to go against flashlights.
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I'm still cautious. I really like her as is, warts and all.
Weirdly, I'm always drawn to less popular killers/characters in games (call me a snowflake) - due to how unique they can be. Wraith, Hag, Legion and Doctor in particular (although two of them require me to farm addons using other killers...Wraith in particular). Keep trying to learn Plague...but it's not going well.
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Try sneaking about more. If you don't trigger her traps, she is utterly useless.
If you trigger a trap, about half the time you can avoid her slash unless you are facing someone with 10ms ping and god tier twitch reflexes.
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The thing is more that you either have to trigger Traps to rescue or to crouch to get someone unhooked. Depending where the Hook (and the Hag) is, it makes it impossible to save someone. E.g. Basement against Hag is basically Death. Because even if you crouch, she will have enough time to come back. And while Basement should be hard to save someone from, it should not be impossible.
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The issue with Hag isn’t Hag it’s that no one wants to learn to play against her properly. You don’t need a flashlight and you don’t need Urban.
Players have this idea of how you have to play the game optimally, but to play optimally against Hag all of that goes out the window.
Traveling around the edges of the map will ensure you don’t run into her traps outside of her chase.
Crouching through loops if you have to pass through them when not in a chase will give you time to see if she’s trapped the loop. You can use that to start identifying her area.
If you do get caught in a trap in her area, try holding Shift W to run outside of the area before you start looping. She’s a 110 killer. If you can get her out of her area and vault to force an actual chase, she now has to take time to set a trap and you can buy the team time.
That is a lot easier said than done though. It can be very difficult to get away from Hag because you have to be running in the right direction and avoid her traps on the way, or you have to have triggered a trap on the edge of her web.
Avoid general paths outside of loops if you can identify them, once again until chase.
Accept you’ll go down eventually and hope the person who saves you knows to crouch by the hook.
Don’t go directly from point A to B. Take the scenic route.
If you’re in Lery’s, try to cut through rooms. A smart Hag will concentrate on the hallways because there are fewer and they connect everything. You’re less likely to run into a trap that way.
Pray if you get The Game. That place is a ######### nightmare against Hag.
Midwich is her best map. I personally play around the second floor, trying to force people close to it so I can hook there because it’s so hard to get a save.
My advice is to get one generator done upstairs and do the rest downstairs. There are more routes down than up so you have a better chance at saving.
There you go. Hag has counters. The majority of the player base just refuses to attempt to think creatively to deal with her.
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Spirit has no counter play tho
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May the lord praise your soul. Preach more about her to me please!!
I live off Hag hate!!
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Another flawed argument of "Spirit has no counter-played" in terms of counterplay like what do you mean?? You loop the spirit around BS loops until you (the survivor) drop the pallet/make the mistake or you're supposed to see/know everyone of her movements and what she's doing in chase.
All I can say is play Spirit yourself and you'll understand that she's not OverPowered as many people claim she is. She's a killer that requires knowledge over survivor routing, tiles and the map. She's not a killer you can just play 1 game and be a god with her instantly. I'll redirect you to this video of Tru3 counter-playing the Spirit.
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Hag was next on my list. Now that Billy has been hit, it's time for a new target.
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I personally don't think Spirit of all killers would need a buff to make her 1v4 stronger even if she got a 1v1 nerf. DS and PH, yeah, because they have literally nothing else but their chase powers (I guess DS has "hit you and yank you from far away [and be able to injure for free even with an early pallet throw]" which helps sliiiiightly with [literally] pulling people off gens, but eh), but as far as I can tell, Spirit has it all even with being 110%. She still has great mobility with her phase walk and is considered top 2 for a reason. Doesn't feel quite as oppressive as Nurse but it is a little annoying that she can get really oppressive with half the effort.
Hag IS incredibly obnoxious to go against sometimes, although I enjoy running willy nilly through a trap as soon as she's stuck in an animation or through her entire web after she picks a survivor up. Basement Hag is so awful to go against, though. Really not a fun killer to go against if they're good or LAGGY! Laggy Hags have to be the most infuriating killers to go against and for some reason, people with bad internet love to play her LOL
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I get where you're coming with the many statements you used but let's be real this is BHVR that's in control of what does and doesn't happen. I understand why many people find it frustrating to play against Spirit with green add-ons + Stridor as well have Deathslinger shoot over/between loops but statements like that don't debunk the fact that Spirit and Deathslinger have counterplay in chase. In the 1v1 they're pretty strong but the game is 1v4, like you said the best way many people play around those 2 is if the survivors do the OBJ. The game right now is in a bad state where gen speeds are to fast and in turn killers will slug, tunnel bring mori's with noed and then on it's a back and forth with which side can do the most BS.
Granted "the chase" is fun part of the game but the only ones having fun are the survivors so in turn many killer players gravitate towards the stronger killers i.e. the best, high tier and potential to win as the game isn't designed around top play. 9/10 many killers rely on the survivors to make a minimum of 2 mistakes (per chase) not to mention most of the maps have way more safe and god pallets/loops than mindgame-able pallets/loops. In today's day and age in DBD it doesn't matter on how long 1 survivor can be chased, it matters on how fast the gens will be completed.
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Billy was gently tapped. Hag needs hit by a train lol
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Yes that's how some of the killers were designed without looking at the survivors fun. Most killers are fun to play as even the weak ones. I played legion as he was really fun. Hes weak but very fun to play as.
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Hag..
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If only there were a way to completely nullify hags power. I have fun playing as and against hag. I find her much more fun to face than a huntress who can hit me around corners. A pig or ghost face or wraith who hook someone, move a couple meters away and wait. I have more fun playing against hag than a good nurse who is the one killer that there is zero counterplay to besides completely splitting up and hoping to bang gens as quickly as possible. I enjoy hag more than a boring ass freddy with pop or a snooze fest legion with ruin.
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The main issue is people don't play rin and caleb as intended. Rin, looking at everything plainly, is meant to scout around the map and pop out the ghostworld to strike. caleb is, all thing considered, meant to 'punish' players for recklessness: too impatient unhooks after he walked away, unwillingness to take the environment into account etc.
But too many people play them the same way:
they camp (phasecampe for rin), the slug, they tunnel, because they never learned to play killers differently. You will see players like that play all their killers the same, be it huntress, doctor or myers...
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hag is an instant dc for me i would honestly rather verse slinger or spirit than hag
i was ready to see another "but what about swf" post
Post edited by Kumnut768 on1 -
If you stealth against a Hag that means you're not getting gens done and you're also not disrupting her web at all. People also frequently run M&A on her because she's tiny and has a base 24m TR, and it's not really possible to use stealth against a killer that can get so close to you before you see them.
I like playing Hag too, but she's extremely strong. If you offered me $100 if I could get a 4k in the next match I would play Hag without hesitation, and I don't even have CI unlocked for her lol. Even if they have four flashlights, good luck breaking my web without taking any free hits and while also doing gens.
I think a really sensible QoL change / slight nerf would be to remove the auomatic camera swivel when someone triggers a trap. And, on the killer side, the game should not micro freeze every time I try to teleport. Many Hags I play against are able to basically instantly teleport when a trap pops and get a near-guaranteed free hit out of it. For me, I can be running someone directly towards a trap and spamming LCTRL in anticipation and I'll still have a short delay before I'm able to teleport, meaning I will miss if I swing right away and sometimes they're able to make it to a pallet. It's very frustrating :( ...but even still she's a monster!
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Spirit and Deathslinger don't offer "interactive chases". As I've been told countless times on here, spirit's whole purpose is to make survivors guess and not give them any kind of visual or auditory feedback, which is literally no interaction between the spirit and the survivor. Deathslinger's ability cannot physically be reacted to, it is actually impossible to react to him shooting you if he's going for pop shots. Where the interaction here? There's no way for a survivor to have any interaction with the killer in the chase when it's entirely based on if the Deathslinger missed or not, and nothing meaningful from the survivor. And a lot of us do know about Hag, we've just grown tired of talking about her because nobody plays her, and the ones that do will usually tunnel you out of the match the moment you get unhooked anyway so there's no real point discussing it lmao.
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"She's not a killer you can just play 1 game and be a god with her instantly"? Um my first several games as spirit were 4Ks within 5 minutes of the match starting. And I don't remember a single time I've lost when I've had to play Spirit. She requires headphones, and that's kind of it. Idk why some people want to insist and shout from the heavens that spirit is this demanding killer to play when it's just not true. And there's nothing wrong with her being easy lmao, nothing in this game is particularly demanding or challenging to the average player, it was designed that way.
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I mean, I agree that BHVR is the one in control of all of this, however, when you play killers like Spirit or Deathslinger who really don't have counter play in the 1v1 (just see Scott Jund's videos on Spirit), And if anything, DBD has only really gotten better in terms of balance and maps and loops- really, just compare DBD 2016 to current DBD and it's really crazy how far the game has far.
Really, I don't think the game will ever be completely balanced. It's already hard enough to balance a non-asymetrical game, but balancing a game like this honestly sounds awful, and I do applaud the Devs for their work- even if I do think they need to listen to some members of the community a bit more. (But maybe they do, and we just don't see it- we don't really know what goes on behind the scenes in BHVR.)
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Spirit has interactive chases? Did I read that right?
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I main spirit, she is so overpowered and has no counterplay, watch Scott jund’s video on deathslinger and spirit
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Doctor is fine
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