Don't nerf Undying&Ruin combo. It is healthy.
- Rewards killers for active and smart gameplay like defending objectives or constantly moving around the map applying pressure
- Punishes killers for passive gameplay - 2+ perks wasted if killer tunnel visions someone or camps
- Creates a secondary, but not mandatory objective for survivors - you can do bones and do gens easier or forget about bones and have to finish generators in one touch.
- Makes games generally longer which gives more opportunity for everyone to have fun.
Let this stay, thanks. This combo isn't broken or overpowered, people are crying only because they don't want to adapt to it.
Comments
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I agree if survivors can keep DS, UB, DH, BT for years if I'm correct. Then Undying and Ruin is fine.
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It's not about survivors having a strong combo, although I could use that as one of arguments why Und&Ruin shouldn't be touched.
It's about this certain combo being healthy. It adds depth to the gameplay and forces more active gameplay from both sides.
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Your whataboutism is as strong as your comment is irrelevant to the thread.
I really like the combo together, the only thing I think should be changed is a minor nerf to undying, i feel like it does too much. Either make it so it only shows auras while they breaking totems, or only shows auras around hex totems not all totems. Even when playing killer it feels like way too much info to have if the totem placements are lucky
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I don't think it needs nerfed. Though I'd say solo survivor would be horrible with that combo since you can't share information or coordinate anything.
Still believe they should add a totem counter.
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I agree and it is counterable Ruin plus undying. Spread out the killer can only be in one place at once. So I agree undying shouldn't be nerfed.
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Small Game Perk Anyone?
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There's already three of them.
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I actually wouldn't mind seeing repressed alliance have its 60 seconds of working on a gen prerequisite for activation looked at so that it can be used more reliably against ruin + undying. This perk is so cool but the prerequisite makes it awful.
Aside from that I wouldn't be opposed to having undying have a unique look to its totem so that you don't end up in some games where you randomly cleanse ruin 4 times (with the killer seeing your aura each time before you go to do it thanks to undying).
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Wholeheartedly agree. It´s not even great on every Killer. It´s also inconsistent for the Killer, provides counterplay and pushes players to make meaningful decisions. It´s just great for everyone, honestly.
Apart from Trapper and Hag. Since Totem builds are increasingly finding their way into the meta from what I can tell, many tools that are used by Survivors to combat these are effective against them, too. Finally more counterplay to Trapper :P
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I didn't mean an actual counter to totems. It would be really dumb of me to have made over 2,600 posts if I didn't even know all the perks in the game lol
I mean something to track how many totems are left in the trial. Just stick it on the left hand side just next to the number of generators left.
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But I feel like you can get a general idea. Say you're going to a gen that just got kicked and the totem there is gone. Or you're in a chase and see another one cleansed that gives you the idea that okay my teammates are doing totems and there's a chance they'll all be gone.
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They will nerf it it's just a matter of time. It's a strong killer combo and survivors won't like that.
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i dont mind the combo itself, what i mind is this combo with Tinkerer on a Blight (or Billy or Spirit - basically any killer with good map coverage). that is where it gets super oppressive (and boring) and where imo something should be done.
honestly, why not try taking away the aura reveal Undying has?
i feel like that doesnt really have anything to do with its main effect of reincarnating destroyed Hexes and its a little over the top.
and to make the tiers unique, make it so tier 1 and 2 have limited revives.
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There's a chance but no guarantee. Unless I run around the whole map myself and see all 5 gone I have no idea if they are all cleansed or not.
Just think of the difference in my information about totems when playing solo vs swf:
- I know exactly how many totems are cleansed without actually having to see them myself.
- I'm told exactly where totems are cleansed. This helps me work out roughly where the others should be at.
- I can tell people exactly where a hex totem is the second I see it. Same goes if they find a hex totem.
That information is key in this game. Solo survivor is already awkward enough when it comes to reliable teammates so adding in totem hunting can be too much. Something so simple as a totem counter will help bridge the gap between solo and swf.
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A lot of Survivors just want to hold M1 all game. They say it's boring but whine when something like Ruin + Undying is introduced that creates another objective, they start whining. Also Killers shouldn't have perks that reward them for playing well for some reason.
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I think a global totem count for all 5 players would be great, as it has been suggested many times. Maybe on the survivor side you can't tell if one is lit until you either are under the effect of a hex (so if you let go of a gen and it reveals ruin is active, the totem icon on-screen lights up) or if a survivor gets within X meters of an active hex totem and it's in their field of view.
I also wouldn't be opposed to maybe moving the aura reveal to after the totem is finished, although I'd rather see totem icons for everyone first before trying to pursue a change like that. If all four survivors knew how many totems were left, I think even solo queues would get totems done a lot more reliably. As it stands, you typically get one person out trying to do hexes, which makes it rough, since they get revealed and the killer, if they spot it, is likely to come running. If multiple survivors are working on totems, that's a massive increase in pressure for the killer to protect totems, which has the added benefit of making patrols harder.
I think if survivors were more willing to engage (and communicate pre-game where possible) with totems, they'd find that the combination isn't quite as oppressive as it seems.
But as long as the majority of solo queue players continue to want to hold M1 on gens outside of chases, this combination will be far more powerful than it should be. Trust me, if you notice Ruin at the start of the match and all the survivors just put gens on hold (pretend corrupt intervention is up) and get immersed to kill totems, the vast majority of the time it'll be gone before 2 minutes has passed, and is gone for the rest of the match. Don't forget to destroy every dull totem you see as well. Bonus: You guarantee no NOED as well!
This is absolutely an area where I can see "what and see" being extremely important for balance, because I truly believe survivors will adapt very quickly the more they see it.
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This might be that I play on mobile and you get perks differently on mobile but I barely see Noed used and totems getting cleansed isn't usually a high concern because there's usually no Noed.
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I dunno man, the idea of balancing the game around potatoes who can barely do the objective just seems like a shortcut to making the game miserable for competent players.
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So balance this game for rank 20s? Is that what you’re saying?
Also totems are random and you have no idea which totem has which perk.
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with all the totem spots being really hidden now i can understand it but i do think i needs some kind of tweak, passive slowdown is one of things i think is incredibly unhealthy ruin on its own is fine because it wont stay up for too long but with undying it is kinda busted ngl
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Nobody wants to hold M1 all game. The problem with this combo is it adds even more M1 holding. It doesn’t add any actual depth to the game, it’s just hold M1 on totems as well as gens. How will survivors ever adapt to this inscrutable new objective.
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(imagine comparing Ruin/Undying to something like DS/UB)
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I think it might be interesting if cleansing the protected hex made like a bolt of lightning or something hit where it moves to, to motivate and inform the survivors. It would also give the killer awareness about which specific hex is at that location.
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They're both powerful combos.
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Agreed. I'm a Rank 1 Ghostface main and have been since his release. He's the only killer I play and I used to use Corrupt in order to stall the gen rush and allowing me to get some stalks on survivors but even then I would usually get gen rushed. Now, with ruin and undying I can stalk survivors on the fly while having constant passive gen regression and I win almost all my games now that survivors have a second objective in cleansing totems and I can apply pressure all over the map. Even against try-hard red rank SWF's who bring map offerings, brand new parts with provethyself and smol pp builds. Don't get me wrong, the games can still get stressful but at the same time, it's much more manageable.
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I like the idea that someone proposed that if you cleanse Undying, any revived Totems change back to dull totems.
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Undying/Ruin is not nearly as powerful as DS/UB. It can be ignored completely, and countered. DS/UB has no real counter, and during end game, there's straight up nothing you can do but take it. There is no valid comparison there.
Powerful doesn't mean the same. Invalid comparison.
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I think this would be fine if the following conditions also applied, just off the top of my head, obviously numbers are placeholder:
- If the revived hex had no timer (like Ruin), its effect will continue to be applied for 60 seconds.
- If the revived hex had a timer (like Haunted Grounds) the timer will be halved and will continue to be applied until the halved timer expires.
- Token-based hexes will lose 1 token and then continue to be applied for 60 seconds. (Kind of a weird roundabout solution for getting Devour Hope down from Mori power, but not completely destroying lesser token-based Hexes like Huntress Lullaby.)
- If the hex was NOED, the killer instantly dies.
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I meant from the very beginning it would be hypocritical that Undying/Ruin get a nerf while DS/UB would still be unchanged for 2-3 years.
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I get that - and I agree, but I just don't think the comparison is valid, when one setup is vastly stronger.
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Its overrated. Undying is programmed to go first in the majority of cases too. I’d say 80%
Im not sure if they ever gave an explanation on how totems work but at this point I refuse to believe any explanation other than the totems in the game are just totems, no perks assigned. Then when one blows up it picks a perk to deactivate. This is the only explanation why on a 50/50 chance Undying is cleansed first in 80%+ of my games.
This combo has me curious though on how effective it is on killers with little map pressure. We all know survivors tend to sit on gens longer to try and finish it before it regresses. So on low map pressure killers does it actually encourage genrush rather than the opposite?
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The way the DS and UB work their intention is fine however DS timer should get the PGTW treatment and have tier 3 to be 45 seconds and Unbreakable reccory should be put down to 15/20/25 percent.
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Nah. I'm fine with DS' timer. I think the change it really needs is to be deactivated if you:
- Fully heal.
- Heal someone else
- Touch a generator
- Touch a totem
Basically, anything to progress the game. It's impossible that you are being tunneled if any of those things are happening; and there's no way to cheese that since the survivor controls it completely.
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Thrill of the Hunt does the same things as Undying - Makes breaking totems harder and reveals when totems are being broken. I don't think Undying needs a nerf like that, it's basically TotT but with different focus - instead of keeping certain hex alive in one spot (prevent from breaking) it prevents a hex from disappearing, giving it second life.
Both are countered by cleansing dulls first so their primary defence mechanism is turned off.
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What's funny is you can still do gens and there's a REALLY good perk called detectives hunch that can find the totems for you as you do gens.
I have used it in a few games against the combo and usually after the 2nd gen i have gotten half the totems or even both hex totems if im lucky and get undying.
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Because it makes them hold M1 even longer in a match. Totem cleansing has always been an objective for various reasons. Polishing up a turd and presenting it as an objective is still a turd.
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No DS need to go
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Fact
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I'm totally fine with combo, I even played a match that I had to cleanse 5 totems alone and do 2 gens, so I must say that there's time to deal with that without interfering with the match.
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If I'm honest. The only combo that should be nerfed is DS+UB. It makes the survivor invincible for 60 seconds, yeah the killer could just slug but then they'll get back up and if they don't slug they can just do a gen. I feel like Ruin+Undying is fine the way it is
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I've actually experienced the opposite. You're probably just getting unlucky. It happens.
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I understand how its different but the problem behind it is the perk has two abilities, 1: the hex shifting and 2: the vision. 2 by itself would be fine as a non-hex perk, and 1 by itself is fine as a hex perk, but together you have a perk that counters its counter which is bad game design. It'd be like if they added a nomither style stand up to DS, causing it to counter its counter (slugging) without requiring unbreakable. To counter ability 1 you need to do dull totems, but doing dull totems is countered by ability 2. TBH i think swapping TotH's primary ability and the vision on this perk would be ideal. Undying only notifies you with a sound notification when they're starting to break a hex totem which lets players do dull without being punished by the same perk forcing them to do dulls. I dont believe that undying should be nerfed, just that its power shifted away from countering its own counter.
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On a fast competent killer, the combo is very oppressive. If killers can have such strong ways of slowing the game down then survivors need some more stronger perks to choose from. Perks with very small effects, like showing the aura of nearby perks just doesn't help against a fast rank 1 killer that has map-wide knowledge with the intent of slugging and what not.
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Unbreakable does give recovery speed in addition to standing up, Soul Guard gives endurance when you stand up (You can compare this perk to Undying as they both have 2 powerful effects tied into one perk) and no mither hides your blood, makes you quieter and allows to stand up as much as you want.
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Spread out on gens. Even the most mobile killer in the game can pressure only one generator at a time. Stop grouping up on gens, make their job of applying pressure (which is literally the way Ruin gets value - through gen pressure) harder.
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The problem isn't that the two effects are powerful, the problem is that undying counters its own counter which is bad gamplay design. I was simply giving an analogy, that if DS let you stand up as well as having the pickup stun, it would be a similar situation, one where the best way to counter a perks effect is in itself countered by the same perk. A killer sided analogy could be if they released a version of bbq that proced when someone was unhooked, but it also had iron maidens effect. The best way around bbq is to use a locker, but the iron maiden effect would counter the counter.
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Undying wouldn't help you if 2-3 totems are being worked on at the same time. Save one, lose another.
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That doesnt mean the base counter isnt countered. im unsure what your not getting so im going to stop responding
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It definitely needs a nerf. It isn't healthy to punish solo survivors more than they already are. That being said, it doesn't need a direct nerf: Soul Guard could be the first of many perks to buff cursed survivors (though a totem counter is definitely necessary and really should be added, I honestly don't know why it hasn't been).
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