The stupidest part about ruin/undying/tinkerer
We all know this is literally the new killer meta combo, im pretty sure 4/5 killers i have now run it (very origional and creative builds btw), but do people not realise the effects that it's going to have on the game? It WILL get nerfed, sooner or later. It's literally inevitable. Ruin is going down the exact same path of last time. The devs will notice that ruin and undying is literally in every game and build and they will end up changing ruin again literally putting the game balance back a whole year, when in reality, the problem is rather undying and tinkerer. If you think that this combo is not busted, allow me to explain. Playing blight, billy, nurse, oni, freddy or anyone with decent movement speed? Well all you need to do with this perk combo is use ur power to get to a gen whenever tinkerer props, force the survivors off the gen and maybe get a down and the gen is already down halfway. Literally the only way to counter this is either spend years searching for the totems and wasting huge amounts of time or coming in a tournament level swf and pumping out the gens as insane speeds (which how much fun is that really? Who wants to hold m1 all game/). I'm just dissapointed with this because the new ruin is actually a decent perk but these other two perks have completely broken it. Till they change it guess we gotta just be gen jockeys and suck it up?
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Of course they will nerf Undying sooner or later, but i hope after the nerf it will be still playable. I like the metashift and i like to see more diversity in the game.
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Yes, you will have to just suck it up. For the record, I prefer Hex: Undying, Hex: Ruin, and Surveillance. I find it far more effective than Tinkerer. The fact is the SWF have turned the Gen-Rush into a chasm of problems, and the DEV are trying to answer it with Perks to return balance. While I think this effort will fail, ultimately, and SWF and Solo will have to be in their own Ques, a temporary fix is better than no fix. I assure you that plenty of Survivors are adapting to the Meta Shift Crisis and are busily doing those Bones and still managing to defeat the Killer.
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If it's gonna get nerf anyway, then i would play it every game because.. why the hell not?
I personally don't think it needs nerf. A single map can destroy this build in first 2 or 3 mins, leaving the killer with 2 perks.
And i think this combo is healthy for the game. It encourages killer NOT to camp and tunnel, which is what survivors want too.
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The problem with it is that it makes strong killers who have great mobility and map pressure even stronger, whilst not giving as much benefits to slower killers. Have you played against a nurse or blight with this build? It's literally unstoppable unless ur in a stacked swf or the killer is bad. I know gens can sometimes be fast especially in swfs but u gotta remember if they balanced gen speeds at base for good swfs, can you imagine the effects it would have on solo p[layers, casual swfs and killers with already good slowdown perks?
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It doesn't encourage it anymore than pop/bbq does, which is way healthier in my opinion.
The problem with this build is that it also encourages you to basically drop any chase where you cant use tinkerer and get a free down from it. What is the point of stealth killers when you can run a perk on high mobility killers which just does the job ten times better?
Also yes being jumped at on gens can be fun but when you've literally got every second killer doing it it gets hella boring just waiting for them to come and mess ur gen over.
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Meta shift is exactly what should be happening. You can't fit DS, BT, Unbreakable, and 4th thing if you need to be breaking bones fast or keeping gens from regressing.
This opens the door for many unused perks to be.....used.
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Yes, I have. I've lost to them, and I've won some too. My feeling is that Solo and SWF should be in two different Ques, so the DEV can require an extra Generator to power the gates, and unlock a 5th Perk for the Killer for the SWF/Team Que. This is the only solution that can balance the 5th Perk (Comms) without also strangling the poor Solo Que.
And yes, high mobility killers that have an easier time patrolling Generators do benefit more from these Perks than the Killers who ACTUALLY need them. That is a fact, and I'll happily cede the point. I play Myers as my Killer and I need those Perks far more than a Nurse or a Blight. But, I don't believe their existence makes it impossible to play said Killers. I think the fact that some Killers are so mobile doesn't reflect badly on the new Perks as much as it does the Killers who might needs some tweaks. I'm sure those tweaks will come.
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The only problem I could think of with split queues is 3 man SWFs how would it work with them?
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It would be extremely dumb to nerf only viable hex build ever. And it only works if killer is applying pressure on gens while also beiing quite easily cleansed if RNG deems it.
If they do nerf new killer meta after very short time leaving stale survivor meta the same for years, it will be extremely hypocritical of them.
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Good question, and I've got an answer. They still require one more Generator than normal to power the gates. The game already accounts for games where only three people que up and it loads. It already requires them one less generator. Thus, a three man team would STILL need (5) rather than the (6) a four man team would need.
But far more likely is that a 3-Person SWF would just spend the time to get that 4th Player. 4v1 is better than 3v1 based on the force multiplier of the 5th Perk (Comms), i.e. the more eyes the more unbalanced passing the information around gets.
For the record, I believe the Solo Que should allow up to (2) people to enter the Lobby together. I don't think 2-Person SWF unbalance the game significantly enough to say a couple can't play together. I just think 3+ goes to their own Que and get balanced for it. Killers will be happy to play against Teams if the playing field is leveled.
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There are many survivor metas which come and go right? Mettle of Man? Selfcare?
I think hex perks are just dumb in general as they bascially reward good rng and not the skill of survivors and killers. The reason i actually like the pop bbq meta however is that it requires effort on the killers part and can be countered by survivors. Every counter to undying/ruin is either waste 2-3 minutes at the start searchiing for totems or force gens at a tourny swf rate.
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Personally i don't mind the combo but I do wish they would remove the aura from undying as I do no think that is needed.
At least this was it may help with the survivor meta and some may start to run totem builds but right now its better to sit on a gen until someone is being picked up before doing a totem as to not give away your position.
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Here's my argument/s when it comes to the balacne of swf though. If swf is heavily nerfed, then what challenge is really left for killer anymore? As a killer main, i only play to vs good swfs and learn from them as well as have a challenge. I get so bored vsing bad teams now that i dodge most teams unless they look like a swf or i know there are decenet players. Why? Because vsing solo q players and bad swfs is just an easy stomp and it's no fun.
Let's also be real, how often do you actually come across a good swf? What happens to the casual swfs? Do they just get stomped on now for wanting to have fun and chillout in the game? Most swfs i know play for chases and fun moments and hardly ever sweat.
Let's also remember that good swfs aren't unbeatable these days, thats a mentality maintained from old dbd where this statement was true, but the game is far more balanced now. If your good with nurse, spirit, freddy, huntress, oni, blight, and potentially plague, pyramid head and a few others, you should be able to destroy good swfs 80% of the time. Yea you might not be as consistent with weaker killers but its gotta stop somewhere right? Imagine if every killer could beat the best team in the world? Not exactly balanced then is it.
I think that the issue is more with killer strength differences and the gap between weak and strong killers. Strong killers will generally have no problem with a swf. Weak killers will struggle hard.
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Kinda disagree with some points. I think noone will point at ruin, I think it is pretty clear that Undying is the problem. There is already enough discussion about Undying and how to fix it.
I run that on Bubba as well and works fine. It is not only high mobility.
And btw there is an effective counter, not that super promising to be able to outplay or easy to handle, but really helpful: Stack with 2 people on gens. The killer most likely will not run Discordance as well, and the killer will have a hard time to get there and protect it, so it goes below 70% again. Just keep both survivors pushing the gen by on/off to keep the progress until someone is hit, one survivor pulling the killer while the other goes back to the gen, alternating. That will give the other 2 survivors some free time to progress another gen. The killer cannot protect 2 gens with Tinkerer.
Another effective counter, which is way easier: start to bring maps or Hunch. Or both. If you tend to bring medkits for healing that is replaced by the map, bring a healing perk as well. Ruin/Undying killers probably tunnel less, so you don't need DS/Unbreakable. Just in case this is the case
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Something needed to be done about the copy pasted survivor builds and the gen rush tho.
I'm completely happy about the metagame.
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killers who use this build tunnel more than normal ones.
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Yea it sounds like a good strategy in theory but how easy is it to really pull off unless ur in a strong swf? Remember one gen popping literalyl means nothing if the killer is still able to get downs.
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It's not like killer builds were anymore variant than survivor ones lets be real. Mostly pops and bbq's before this with the occasional different builds, not that i had a problem with it or anything.
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I'm not talking about nerfing them. I'm talking about balancing the SUPERPOWER they have outside the game. You would still be able to fight them. If you don't feel challenged enough, you can STILL choose not to fill in all your Perk Slots, i.e. give yourself a handicap. The point is you have that option already. Those people who are NOT that good and are being overwhelmed by the 5th Perk (Comms) don't have the ability to even things out. Do you see my point?
You can challenge yourself whenever you want already, and don't need SWF to do it.
I come across good SWF every day. I fight NOTHING but Red and Purple Ranks in every match, and most of them are in a SWF and know exactly what they are doing.
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Can we swap lobbies please?
Yea i know it can be hard for newer players to go against swf but that's where i personally feel matchmaking and MMR comes in and needs to be improved, not the game balance. If new players were able to vs good swfs and beat them then man i couldn't imagine good killers vs a swf.
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That build is based on Rng for totems.
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We agree that a better matchmaking system would be nice. :) I think that is the ultimate goal. Either way, Solo and Team play will ultimately have to be in different Ques. They are very different animals, and all attempts by the DEV to balance the 5th Perk (Comms) while everyone is lumped in together will hit the Solo players three times as hard. This is unfortunate, but true.
I personally think Team/League play being its own Que could not only be good for the balance of the game but open up a whole NEW monetary stream for the company. Think of all the cosmetics they could sell for League/Team jackets or hats. I know my pals and myself would love to have matching jackets that say "Unhookers" or whatever other cute name we come up with.
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I guess dbd could be ready to take that step considering the balance is far better now. Only concern i have is what happens to casual swfs? And those who don't wanna do gens but just get chased?
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I think the aura reading should be removed entirely. I have no idea how they put it there to begin with. The counter to the build is literally to do bones and the perk itself counters its counter.
Other than that, yes the combo can be very oppressive against solo q, but the game doesn't cater to solo q anyway in it's current state and nothing leads me to think they plan on changing that.
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Well, TRUE casual SWF can play already... any time they want. It is called a Custom Game. I play them ALL THE TIME with my friends. Five of us get together in person (or over communications) and setup a game. Four of us chatting away with Comms against a friend (who knows we can do it) trying to kill us. That is a true CASUAL game. There is no reason a SWF needs to be competing against OTHER people they don't know, except that they want the advantage it provides.
Heck, we have even managed to scrounge up a Killer on channels to come join us in a custom game. Most Killers are fine when they KNOW what they are facing and aren't afraid. Sometimes we balance our custom games/casual SWF play by only allowing the Survivors 2 or 3 Perks each. Sometimes we allow the Killer to pick the map too. Sometimes (usually when I'm playing the Killer) they get ALL their Perks, and get to choose which Killer I get to use. They don't let me use Myers. :) They stick me with someone they know I can't use.
Do you see my point? True casual games where friends get together don't require being part of the overall Ques. Why would they need to be?
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It's not that great against SWF. They will plow through all your totems in no time then you are left with 2 perks, one of them mediocre at best.
I played this build on a lot of killers for about a week then switched back to Pop builds on certain killers.
Not to mention you can beat it by just slamming gens and making sure to avoid a 3 gen.
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Self care was meta for like 2 years consecutively and it's still very strong perk. MoM was leaked and community said it's OP, devs released it and it was completely OP so it was gutted as utterly OP perks deserve to be. It wasn't new meta at all, just one broken perk devs used to force everyone to buy ash and then instantly nerf only perk that made peoply but it in the first place.
Meanwhile DS, BT, DH etc are meta since their release and never dropped out of it no matter changes they received.
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Sounds hard in theory as well, how about just trying and either run Detectives Hunch or Bond? I have some decent games against this combo. I know it can be hard but it is also no solution to complain and lose for the next 3 months
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I think the real problem is that the game is balanced in such a way that leaves very little room for diverse builds against people that know what they are doing (for both sides).
It's an arms race and BHVR will earn more in the long run if they leave it like that tbh.
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The killer can't stop you from progressing the game though.
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i like Otz's idea for an Undying nerf, where when Undying gets destroyed all totems that have respawned also blow up.
this is a prime example of 3 perks that are mostly fine, but when combined get too oppressive. i dont mind a single one of them in particular (okay maybe Undying is a tiny bit over the top rn, but still nothing that i would consider "OP"), but the combo of these three on a high map pressure killer is really just annoying to an extend where i dont think it should be in the game to begin with.
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I don't think undying needs a nerf on the other hex parts. I think the aura reveal should be removed. It literally made thrill of the hunt useless.
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There are still some of us that buck the meta trend.
Distressing, Coulrophobia, and Sloppy Butcher for the win. Great slug build.
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It needs the nerf hammer so fast. A hotfix should have already been released.
Nobody should be able to automatically win for throwing on 3 specific perks.
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Are you kidding me?
Survivors after all this time of running BT, Adreneline, DS and Unbreakable are mad because killers have a strong perk combo and have the gall to say the killers are being uncreative? Please give me a break.
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If the problem were Undying, then Undying/Devour Hope would be meta. The problem really is Ruin: now that is can hang around for a decent amount of time without extreme luck, it's an issue.
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Me and my friend have rarely problems with this. She kills every totem she sees with Small Game (no noed when I play with her). And you only need to get lucky in the beginning. 50% chance to get Undying first. Only indoor maps are a bit tricky.
At least the gens don't get done so fast with Ruin/Undying/Surveillance.
No need for Tinkerer on Freddy tbh. And no need for PGTW either.
I'd rather face a Ruin/Undying Freddy than a Pop, DL, Sloppy, Thana Freddy.
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It's not that bad... New ruin hasn't been much of a problem. Most of the time ppl passively looked for ruin but it was never a big thing to go after like old ruin. Undying + ruin barely does anything if u play around it a little. Ppl are throwing matches by overfocusing on ruin again cuz of undying and I'm really getting tired of it in game and on the forums.
There's only 1 killer and you're telling me that 1 killer with undying can apply all the pressure against gens, totems and ppl that are hooked? Why do they even need undying + ruin at that point when they'd probably dominate just applying pressure to gens only? You're telling me you seriously think that you need tourney levels of SWF to deal with it or gen rush through it? I don't really want to say it but that's some survivor main BS and that's coming from a survivor main. U just need a slightly competent solo queue group. And for the solo queue groups below that... We probably wouldn't have survived anyways.
Then there's the people saying that the combo forces people to just do gens, which is a boring playstyle... What did you do in matches that don't have a hex totem in it? I can tell you that people rarely touched bones. The game must've really sucked then. I'm honestly not sure what some solo queue survivors do but if it forces them to actually do something for the team in a game, I think that's a buff.
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I can't imagine people would play custom games though just because they weren't sweating in a swf. You can't earn any bloodpoints or anything. Yea it sounds like a decent idea at first but it really wouldn't take long before you got bored of vsing the same players over and over again, knowing that it's not a real match and you can't earn anything.
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You could say that dh bt ds are the equivalnet of corrupt, pop, bbq, ruin. Perks which have always been strong for the killer.
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Another problem then arises from that though. Do we have to waste a perk slot just to deal with this bulid? It's like how iron will is a nescesity against sprit. You have too many situations like that and it really forces you to run certain perks. I've been running detectives hunch recently but i'm already starting to get bored of just searching for totems all game.
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You are kind of missing the point. If you are TRYING to earn something and compete against strangers (i.e. Killers that aren't your friend) then it IS NOT a casual game. A group in the Que, a SWF team that is making full use of the 5th Perk (Comms) is not casual situation. It is a competitive edge situation. Not all SWF are good, but all SWF do have a competitive edge over the Solo and over the Killer too. I just don't like people using the "casual game with friends' argument to try and justify their SWF.
More to the point, I play with friends all the time and we are in the Ques (earning those BP) but we agree NOT to talk about the game, i.e. no cheating information is passed that isn't being provided by animations or Perks. We talk about Fantasy Football, movies, trash talk each other... all that jazz. We do NOT act like Seal Team Six making sure every single one of us has perfect knowledge of the map, and thus acting with perfect coordination. This is the only way to play a SWF casually, and I assure you that me and my friends are the exception, not the rule. Most SWF use Comms.
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I think it would be nice if that if ruin is cleansed whilst undying is up, it has like a 30 second or 1 minute cooldown before it is activated again, cause currently its really unfair that totem perks with stacks get penalised but ruin doesn't.
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sounds like survivor can do it but killers can't how that fair.
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Complaining about killers having uncreative builds when you can pretty much guess half the perks of every survivor in every lobby before the game loads is pretty funny.
I think a change (rather than a nerf) would be good for Undying, though. I'm not a fan of RNG on either side, it should not be a huge determining factor on the outcome of a match.
As I proposed in another thread, we need the totem counter. Everyone has it; killers and survivors. Killer sees totems on their UI lit properly, all survivors see dull totems until they discover a hex totem or are alerted to its effects.
Then, we just change Undying so that instead of a typical red hex glow, it glows blue or something, indicating to both the killer and survivors that this is a critical totem.
If we had to take it one step further, move the aura reading from Undying onto Thrill of the Hunt, making it more viable (and still making it synergize, but taking up another perk slot and eating up a dull totem so Ruin can transfer one less time) and give Undying a generic sound notification when a totem is like 30% cleansed. Overall I guess it could still be seen as a nerf, but having the info on which totem was Undying as killer, even if the survivors also know, would be big for me.
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I think it'd be nice if they reworked Ruin itself so that the regression speed decreases each time the totem is cleansed, but unless they add other ways of respawning totems it wouldn't make much sense for the layperson to read in the perk description, unfortunately.
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So you're saying that casual swfs are not allowed to play in normal ques?
Wouldn't it just be better to give solo q players more information and then buff killers accordingly? Rather than seperating and almost making it like two seperate games.
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Man now that people actually HAVE to do bones they are losing their minds. This is pretty funny, it really shows just how incapable most people are at dealing with the killer when they can't just M1 all game, you actually have to learn how to juke the killer now lol. Tell you what, when survivors stop using DS/BT/UB/etc then you can complain when killers don't stop using ruin/undying...after 3 years, that's when you can gripe about it lololololol
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Survivor have the same meta from years and they didn't do anything to change that. Why do you think that a killer build that is "slighty more used" should get nerfed? And... we are talking about hex perks here, perks that are taken away from the killer as soon as a lucky survivor see them. Builds with hex perks can be fun but most of the times are a waste, they mostly get destroyed in the first minute/s of the match.
Imagine if a killer could do something to take away survivors perks (till the end of the match). That won't be cool don't do think? well.. hex perks have already a build-in nerf so thinking about nerfing them is really silly. With hex perks you are taking your chances like in a casino roulete, and you know why casino never close don't you? same applies here.. most of the times you will lose those perk very early in the match.
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I still think Ruin is the problem and not Undying. It “always on” which is the only reason it’s so good with Undying. All the other totems have requirements or stipulations.
I agree this combo will get changed as it’s far too common. I think the killer mains have a point though how when survivors run the same combo for years (DH, DS, Unbreakable, BT etc) it’s perfectly fine but when killers do it everything has to change.
If this gets changed and DS/Unbreakable get left alone I can see some very unhappy people and rightfully so.
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