if you want a good example of how badly SWF breaks the game. play Among us as a solo player.
before this gets reported for being off topic or whatever i want to say this IS about dead by daylight and how impactful the SWF voice comms is so please read it before you assume make an assumption, but recently i'v been feeling a little burned out so went to play something else for a short bit but wanted that more casual DbD feeling so i came across Among us.
before i carry on this WILL be long and no TL:DR will be included, sorry for the inconvenience.
anyways i'v been playing it for a good 2 or so weeks now and something i'v noticed has a strong presence in Among us is friends on voice comms.
what do i mean?
well when you are the "Imposter" role you are essentially the "killer" role in DBD though your main tool of murder is stealth, and your goal just like DbD is to kill everyone or at least as many people as you can before they figure out its you and "eject you" which basically kills you.
if you manage to get the Imposter role which is randomly assigned in a 10man lobby when the game starts so nobody should know who is it besides the person who gains the role you will on some occasions come across a lobby where you feel that the crew are "psychic" in that when you start killing people they know who it is and get rid of you almost immediately, i chocked this up to being sloppy and noticeable but its becoming more obvious over time what the issue is.
they are Surviving With Friends.
by this i mean if their little friend circle on discord is not the imposter they will do their "tasks" (the win objective as the crew members) and if one of their friends is killed they will announce over their voice comms (usually discord) that X killed friend or if they witness someone else get killed they will tell each other X killed that guy and with the stacked odds of 3,4,5 or even 6 people voting against you odds are the moment they announce this you lose because they will all eject you and end the game there.
as the Impostor your job just became impossible as the power role.
sound familiar?
this same issue plagues DbD, survive with friend gives you power far above the games intended design which not only makes it so they gain clairvoyant abilities of knowing who, what, where and when just because of their voice comms but they actively destroy the "enemies" ability to even function because stealth just got taken from you due to the hivemind feeling sensation that is voice comms and just going on a rampage means they will get you killed/ejected immediately but they can also abuse this by staying together non-stop because they KNOW who is NOT the killer making it so the Imposter cannot do their job.
in DbD terms this is essentially SWF taking the power role from the killer by having a hive minded enemy constantly knowing your whereabouts, your perks as soon as 1 sees an perk they ALL know about it, each others constant location and ultimately which objectives to cooperate on which they know is safest.
This. Breaks. The. Game.
unlike Among us though DbD CAN be solved and balanced of its issue!
because teams are NOT randomly assigned a killer/Impostor, players know what role they will be given when they start the search and because of this the game CAN be adjusted to accommodate and rebalanced around this issue.
im talking making voice comms baseline, buffing solo survivors by baselining perks like bond, kindred and sole survivor, mainly detection perks SWF will never bother with, limiting how many defensive "second chance" perks a team can have so more players in your SWF group the less you can bring and solo players being unaffected by this rule (its bad enough playing solo atm they need the help) and with all this in mind we can FINALLY start making the killer role scary again.
The killer role would have the ability to be Re-balanced if those above changes are made since we can adapt perks and powers with these baseline stats and features in mind, im talking baselining perks like monstrous shrine (this thing is awful in general and should be baseline since basement = killer zone and should be baseline), surge, territorial and that one perk that hides your red stain when you bloodlust (its that useless as a perk i cant even remember its name) then then some offering style items need to be baseline like Cypress mori (its the least used offering in the game and is useless compared to its green or purple brothers) and faint/clear reagent (this one is meh but would be selected depending on killer, so faint for trapper or clear for huntress as examples)
then once that has been done killers can gain a new "against the odds" style buff where the more SWF members are against them then some perks become temporarily baseline for each member of the SWF group up to 4 (so 8 total perks) which adapt to whichever killer you pick.
so example (a bad one i dont play wraith) would be if i were to pick wraith and the enemy has a 4man SWF, then i would get 4 perks baseline: NOED, infectious fright, agitation and blood warden because these would help my wraith play smooth out against the coordination of the SWF while allowing me to slot more optional perks to deal with the harder difficulty, again these would adapt depending on the killer, with this im hoping it will smooth out the lingering issues of some killers being useless against a SWF group and encourage more people to try and beat them rather than avoid them.
for the solo survivor though this is where temporary perks come in.
as a solo survivor you are already against the odds because nobody is partnered with you, they are likely to traitor you and worst case scenario they will farm you on the hook.
with these baseline perks for being solo im hoping it will make playing solo more barely even though it wont guarantee you more escapes, at least you wont feel powerless and with the adaptive killer temperary perks it means you being solo will mean a weaker killer due to less perks, the perks i recommend for solo surviving as previously mentioned that are adapted to solo survivor is sole survivor, kindred, bond and mettle of man.
why mettle of man? this would encourage solo survivors to take more protection hits which is something i see very few survivors do when i notice they are solo from both killer and solo survivor point of view.
finally to finish off give solo survivors and "Against the odds" killers a 25% bonus blood point gain PER Survive with Friend in the match.
so if a killer and 1 solo survivor join a lobby and there is a 3 man SWF group, both killer and solo survivor will gain 75% more blood points, this will encourage more... well going against the odds unlike with currently people will actively dodge SWF groups of any size because of the sheer advantages they bring mainly being that they already have cooperation and plans in mind for eachother where as the solo survivor will likely be the victim of their gameplay and the killer will be going against a more hiveminded enemy.
sorry for the long post but sitting playing Among us made me realize how bad of a state DbD match making really is when i could see the same power role issues in another game make the killer/impostor role completely powerless.
Comments
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So where exactly is the logic to compare two completly different games?
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if you cared to read for about 30 seconds you would see i compared Among us to DbD because voice comms destroys the Antagonist role of both games. and much further into the post i explained how DbD is still able to be saved from this issue while Among us is mechanically incapable of being spared of this issue.
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In among us it's there's a golden rule to not say when your dead, who the killer is, or who killed you because it ruins the charm of the game Otherwise the game would be stale. I wish SWF in DBD did this as well.
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But the difference is that SWF makes DbD money through flashy cosmetics and DLC content so they will never attempt to fix balance issues it brings to the table.
There is a reason why they caved to complaints back in 2016 and added the option to squad.
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The funny thing is this is totally accurate. Except most groups of friends in among us keep knowledge to themselves. Look at streamers of the two games and notice a differenrince
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Voice comms makes Among Us playable. Public solo matches are so unbelievably garbage. More DCs than a full day of playing DBD. And no I didn't read your short novella on your thoughts once you said there's be no tldr.
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this is mostly due to bias gameplay, i mean would you wanna be the "boring" friend if you just ruin it by telling when one of your group is the impostor? no because thats a buzzkill.
now with SWF they share all this information because the killer is NOT part of your little friend circle, so they dont mind making it easier for themselves by sharing everything because none of THEM are impacted by the buzzkill while the random killer guy IS.
hence why in Among us if you are the impostor and your a random guy the friends are happly to "tell on you" over voice comms because they get to have fun "winning" without impacting their own group while you get to have your fun ruined because you are not part of the group.
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i disagree i have quite the blast playing Among us with just text chat.
well if you didnt read it then i wont bother explaining that i listed solo survivor buffs, SWF adaptive nerfs and specific killer adaptive buffs depending on how big of a SWF group you would be against or that for each SWF in the game the solo survivor or killer gets a bloodpoint boost.
i mean it be a waste since you didnt read ;)
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I feel like this isn't as solid of a comparison as you're making it out to be. The core mechanic of Among Us is stealth and deception, while DBD has a far more aggressive playstyle with the emphisis on the cat and mouse chase dynamic.
You can determine most of what info your team has by thinking. You don't know where the killer is, probably chasing someone else. Then you can think about the past known locations of your allies, and create reasonable assumptions of their locations, and with good timing you can predict the popping of generators.
SWFs real power is coordination. I can run the killer over there, I used godpallet, I'll get the hooked teammate, I have a door 99'd.
The comparison doesn't track, this is more like playing Overwatch with randos who don't have mics versus playing with your friends.
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These examples don't quite match up. Pretend a 4 man team goes into Among Us. As you said when one dies they can tell their mates from beyond the grave who actually killed them. If one is imposter they can band together to kill of crew mates and vote the rest out.
Here's the thing though.. this is broken because there is 0% CHANCE of losing in this scenario.
Now look at Dead By Daylight. Comms are extremely strong no one is denying that. Thing is though it's not a guaranteed win for a 4 man swf. Variables like the map, killer, add-ons, map tile spawns and offerings can massively increase the killers chances of winning.
The TL:DR is you can't compare Among Us and Dead By Daylight.
Now I will say I do agree they need to balance swf. I do believe they should make voice chat baseline and buff killers respectively. The need to decrease the divide between swf and solo before making any big balance changes. They also need to buff killers to compensate for this change. Lastly I would like bonus bloodpoints for facing a swf though I don't think the killer should know they are facing a swf till after the game is over.
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I disagree.
I understand what you are saying and it is a really good connection. But Among Us is a completely different genre, it's a murder mystery. DBD is a solo or team game (depending on which side you play). Technically through aura reading perks and even emotes are communication, but then again it's not as strong as call outs.
However still it's a team game for survivors, communication is the best tool for them, better than even Decisive Strike. Then again I'm just rambling, so I could be wrong.
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Im not even gunna read this, you can't compare a social deduction game to an asymmetrical horror one. coms have always given the players that use them an advantage you can basically replace among us with literally any competitive team based game.
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But... That's how I play.
What, did you think I have friends?
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I see your point but I again point to one factor you haven't considered and I doubt many people have.
Among us isn't competitive and most people tend to play fair. Even when I'm in a group of friends we ######### our mouths about ingame activity because we hate game throwing.
People in dbd are toxic asf and want to win at any cost.
The people are the issue. Not the game. Dbd is toxic by design and among us just isn't playable if you play with voice comms and just tell your friends what happened.
Theres no skill in just telling your friends who the killer is, there's no fun or anything intresting bout it. That's why nobody does it. These games are too different to compare.
I understand your point but comparing these games is like playing competitive monopoly v regular monopoly with a chill family.
Ever heard of town of Salem? Among us is almost the same game as that. The rules on game etiquette are vastly different to dbd. Game throwing is taboo to everyone in those games and even reportable.
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I hate swf teams. Can't do anything as a killer. Even facecamping doesn't work.
Than they pour all kinds of insults at u for that momentary camping u did. Even though all 4 of them escaped. And u only camped cuz u got bullied for 15 min.
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More whiney killers, lets just ignore the fact that among us is an honor system game so people who ruin it are at fault not the game or other players. Second the killer in Dbd has an extremely higher amount of power in comparison to among us. And as someone who has played killer and survivor nearly equally and experienced every annoyance or bit of toxicity the game has to offer listen when I say killer is not hard and neither is survivor when swf, however solo survivor is by far the worst thing I’ve experienced on that game. And for the past 2 years most of the nerfs have been on survivor so stop complaining and either quit the game or deal with the bad matches you sometimes get.
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I was very confused at first as I forgot there even was a chat box option in Among Us. I was like, "It's a social game; how would they even play without comms?"
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These posts are useless nothing will ever happen to SWF so you and the other big brains should give it a rest. Second, these are two very different games killer in that game can lie and unless the group of friends there is the majority they can't easily influence the other voters to just vote off the imposter and even if just find a new game. It's a silly but fun game anyway.
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That's a pretty poor comparison imo. The overwhelming majority of Among Us players denounce using comms to spoil the game, and I haven't even heard of friends that play with randoms in a lobby besides maybe if they're a group of 2-3.
That said, having free Bond, Kindred, Empathy, Alert, Spine Chill, Better Together, etc. is very powerful. And that's not even counting the fact that a SWF is much more likely to do gens and get timely hook saves.
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How is it a poor comparison?
- Comms can be used to give more intel than the game is supposed to give.
- Teams outside the game can break the balance of the game
- The first makes the latter essier to do.
I remember doing this crap in old parasyte maps back in WC3. It happens in all modern deduction games. I remember markiplier & co doing it on town of salem.
Ofc that crap doesnt happen in private lobbies where EVERYONE is friends and/or in the same voicechat.
But once theres advantages to be had, its gonna be used, and not just to talk about their days and cutr boys.
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I'm not understanding a word that everyone is saying.
But expressing my humble opinion, and from experience with SWF, DBD does NOT need a voice chat included, this will only increase the level of toxicity in the game, I realized several times when I played against people who were on a call, it is more difficult, but it’s still possible, and it wouldn’t make sense for a person who is a murderer to play in a call with the survivors, that would end their strategy and everyone would have to play without saying anything, so if it’s to play with people screaming, or with people who play giving you orders as it is in FPS games, I prefer to play listening only to the game, or my friends on discord.
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Maybe go ahead and read what the post actually says. Theres alot of info your tiny brain prolly couldnt handle anyways 🤷
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Haha your ######### funny, acting like among us isn't a completely different kind of game. When you play among us with just friends you also play with voice chat off between rounds unlike in KYF matches. Your really comparing apples to oranges here to excuse how bad you are at dbd, upset that the casual game let's you play with friends. K then buddy
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I play both games solo, and I play them both with friends (sorry, I know we're not allowed to have friends). If someone tells you "X killed me" on among us, you've cheated for an instant victory screen, it's not fun for anyone including yourself, because while you technically "won" you didn't figure out #########, there is no sense of achievement at all. Among us is a game about deceit for the impostors, and deduction for the crewmates, by removing those elements you are cheating and the game has nothing else to it. DBD is a very different game, and one survivor saying "killer is X" doesn't instantly win the game, or negate anything the killer could do. Telling another survivor "the killer is at/near X" doesn't instantly win the game or negate anything the killer could do. On literally ANY online game, you'll get little groups of toxic shits, welcome to the internet. The way to deal with this isn't to just punish people that have friends, because that would OBVIOUSLY be ######### rediculous. Half the team's you DON'T complain about will probably be SWF, and a bunch of the "toxic SWFs" will just be good solo players. If you don't have the temperament for a game, don't play it.
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streamers have certain standards to keep up for the public. these random lobbies i play with don't and they don't care to play fairly.
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I've been in so many meetings where they were like "It's orange. ik because I'm otp with white. trust me"
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If you read that damn thing you'd know!
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This is really accurate. I love all the toxic morons complaining about this saying that they're not even gonna read it. That kind of bone idle stupidity is what really destroys progress whether that be improving a game or gaming community. If we don't listen to each this game will never ever come close to being balanced or even some form of balanced.
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Sure you just aren't good enough to rank up?
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if you use comms when your dead in among us thats you ruining the game and there is no further point in playing since your guaranteed to always win
if you use comms in a swf in dbd you are just playing the game relaying information that doesnt guarantee you a win its simply helpful. this does not break the game.
you cant compare among us to dbd
they are not similar games
the comms in these games impact the matches differently
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Wrong. Sorry. Sounds like you abuse comms to get an unfair advantage in every game huh?
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That’s a whole lotta words but not one mention of not playing well, bad fundamentals, not knowing maps/perks. Per usual, it’s a nasty SWF if they outplay you and just dumb randos if they don’t. Both SWFs; doesn’t matter. You and the pack are upset that there are better players in the fog and hide behind comms excuses..
Post edited by Gay Myers (Luzi) on0 -
using swf in dbd = advantage or just having fun with mates
using comms in among us = breaks the game and removes the point of playing
these are not the same stop comparing different games
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OP, I understand what you were going for, but what @CashelP14 said (quoted below for convenience) is 100% accurate. You simply can't compare the way comms affect the two games because one will end outright if comms are used.
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Is that an Outer Wilds reference?
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Thank you mate
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So what your saying is because people play with their friends and use comms it breaks the game? Just because people want to have fun with their friends I guess it breaks the game, how about instead of complaining about swf just get friends and play the game with them it’s not that hard.
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Wrong. Comns with SWF is gamebreaking.
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whooo thats a lot of replies while i slept.
ok to summerize what i mean with comms does break DbD not AS bad as in Among us i will admit but to the point where its no longer the same game anymore as for example if your enemy is suddenly a hivemind (voice comms announcing everything to eachother) killers like trapper, piggy, plague and wraith become so bad they are borderline useless because your power heavily relies on the disconnect of your enemies not knowing everything.
for example if i go trapper, i let the enemy get 2 gens while i setup, whatever typical trapper stuff but then even during chases nobody is getting into traps and then i SEE someone running towards one hidden just around the corner of a loop but suddenly he kneejerk reactions the other direction before he's even made the turn you will soon start to realize they knew where all your traps were because everyone told eachother "trap at shack, trap in grass near loop", etc so you now basically lose your power because without detection perks (i'll explain more in a sec) they still know where everything is rendering you into a mindless follow and slash killer or m1 only as its known.
now if you think Voice comms still doesnt break both games to the point of being nearly impossible to play (i mean you still get those really bad survivors even with every second chance perk and full map knowledge they still do stupid plays), almost 40% or so of perks survivors have are based around if killer does X, then killer aura is revealed or survivor does X killer/survivors are revealed for this example we'll use fengs pallet insight, if the killer breaks a pallet you see where he is for a few seconds ANYWHERE on the map, this is an information perk, OoO is an information perk, bond is an information perk, buckle-up is an information perk, spinechill is an information perk, etc.
now imagine having almost all of these perks baseline just because you can talk over a microphone which these perks were CLEARLY not built around because they have conditions that need to be met to share the information. you nearly have 50% of the survivors perks built into your play just because you are SWF, now its upto the players themselves to exploit this knowledge and share it, a smart or swat SWF WILL use all of this information, i'v seen some seriously disturbing swat SWF groups completely floor even the best of freddies or spirits, some of them to the point they will run ZERO perks because they are dabbing on people to show how strongly coordinated their plays are, coordination only achievable due to the hive minding that is voice comms.
now if that doesnt sound like voice comms is game breaking then you are likely part of the problem or in denial.
the game needs voice comms built in at this point so the game can be balanced accordingly, even if not everyone uses voice comms, adaptive perks (as suggested in first op) specifically for those solo players is an option and anyone in a SWF not using voice comms at that point are choosing to ignore their advantage (consider it hardmode) and even if this becomes another area for toxicity, honestly this would be more tolerable than the end game chats many SWF tend to dump on people just because they have the Neapolitan complex.
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Yes, that's the entire point.
And there's only one killer a match my guy
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Their point was clearly that the situations aren't comparable in their opinion, Mr. Are You Truly That Dense.
In Among Us, knowledge seems to be all you need to win. If it's enough to say "this guy is the killer" to your buddies to vote them off the ship, playing in a group really would seem to be an advantage. Once you get killed it's clear you weren't the impostor, so your friends would probably have no reason not to trust you. So yes, in that game, playing in a party seems pretty broken.
That is not the same as DBD, though, because in DBD knowledge is not everything. SWF is certainly an advantage, but it's not like the four SWF mates can just vote to eject the killer after they get hooked. They still need to play out the game and the killer's skill can, and often does, still win out. Skilled SWFs may as well have an extra information perk for free and can coordinate better than solos, so the ceiling is quite high in theory. In practice, people usually aren't forming hit squads. In practice, people usually are just playing with their buddies. Oftentimes they're in two-man squads instead of four. Oftentimes they make dumb, overly altruistic plays that end up hurting the team because they want to save their friends at all costs. Oftentimes the skill gap between the players in a SWF is larger than it would be for solos, which also helps the killer. If even one survivor is going to be a liability that could lose the game for the rest of them even if some of them are on comms.
I personally would like to see solo queue buffed to close the gap with SWF, but I also don't think SWF is nearly as big of a problem in practice as people make it out to be.
I'm going to make the same point I always make when people complain about SWF. If SWF is both common and OP, why were kill rates higher at red rank than at all ranks as of the last stats drop? People love to complain about those stats because they count things like hook suicides, but when we're comparing the whole player base to red ranks using the same stats, it really should be apples to apples.
There are three options, one or more of which must be true:
1) Red ranks disproportionately disconnect, sandbag their teammates, kill themselves on the hook, etc. to the point where they artificially inflate the kill rate versus all ranks.
2) Solo queue starts to be absolutely massacred at red rank, to the point where their drop in survival rate at red rank outweighs the survival benefit of SWF.
3) SWF does not substantially outperform solo queue on the aggregate. Some SWFs may outperform solo queue, but these squads are rare enough to not drop the kill rate at red rank.
I don't think 1 or 2 are likely. I think 3 is clearly the most likely answer. God squads do exist, but they are comparatively rare, and balanced out on the aggregate by overly altruistic squads with high disparity in skill.
Anecdotally, this matches my experience as well (rank 1 for killer and survivor - only relevant for matchmaking). I typically play in a SWF with two or three people. We have a comparatively wide disparity in skill, we'll make dumb plays, and we die a lot (although admittedly less so since Crossplay went live). Meanwhile, as killer, there aren't very many matches where I'm facing insanely coordinated teams that just wreck me without me really having a chance against them, even when I'm playing low-tier killers. I feel like this has been even more true since Crossplay went live as well.
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No I'm just really into science 😂
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if you blame swf for your mistakes you will never improve at the game, you make it sound like its impossible to beat swfs
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A coordinated 4 man death squad has no counter.
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Umm. It’s not the same thing because on DBD the survivor’s job isn’t to figure out who has been doing the killing. It is to repair gens or distract the killer long enough.
You have a much higher chance to cheat in Among Us because finding out who the killer is IS your objective. On DBD you already know who the killer is you can figure out what they have. Found a hex near shack? Oh well I know it spawns there too, don’t need comms.
This is probably the worst comparison I have seen.
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did you actually read the post? i wasn't comparing the playstyle i was comparing how information transmission via voice comms kills a huge part of the game.
and i even specifically pointed out for Among us its incurable because of how the game is mechanically while with DbD it CAN be alleviated.
i feel like a lot of the people making the same "how can you compare them" comment are not reading the explanation WHY i made the comparison and im getting close to making a TL:DR just so people will actually MAYBE read something but again if they aren't willing to read the first 2 paragrapsh are they going to be bothered to read a single line summery?
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I doubt anyone will even ready my comment or even care. But the dev team has stated multiple times in interviews that the game is literally impossible to balance between solo play vs swf. The point of no communication is to give you an immersive experience as a survivor and at its core and integral, designed, and desired experiencr that the dev team wants you to have as a solo survivor. Of course sfw ruins that, you arent SUPPOSED to communicate with each other by design. And on the flip side if they balance the game around swf(which is really bad if you design your game around HAVING to play in a team) then anyone who ques for solo play will literally just lose, no one will want to play solo, que times spiral out of control, no one plays, the game collapses.
You need to understand that things are the way that they are for a reason. If anything they should just remove swf and nerf survivors, but thats also bad for playercount.
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if you bothered to read i explained why comms destroys the game balance.
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It's really funny if that's that case, what you said is literally word for word a quote from Outer Wilds
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I like the dbd. I really really do. But I also like f13. I really really like it. Granted that was a long post but you did make some excellent points. And the thing that amazes me is that a lot of people like to hate on f13 but it doesn't have any of those problems that you just listed. I wonder why?
My two cents... Is that whether they were geniuses and knew ahead of time or they'll actually played dead by daylight and understood the problem early on... They knew that voice comms was something that had to be addressed. And in f13 making a swf group not only hurts your group but it hurts all of the counselors as a whole. The reason being because now the lobby is split and two or more groups of people who aren't working together on the same page because they don't know what's going on.
on top of that anytime someone open their mouth or said something in the game chat Jason got a notification which makes perfect sense and is fiar so that's people can't get a round done in 6 mins.
So based on what the OP was stating I really wonder why a game like that generated so much hate when it seems to be the answer to long posts like this because Lord knows this isn't the first one.
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