Dead Hard, Fair or Unfair?
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As long as it's civil than there's no reason to apologize for something you believe in. You and I might disagree on some points, but that doesn't mean I'll belittle you for it ha ha. It's fine to not agree on some things, that's why we all have opinions.
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I'm mainly speaking from personal experience here, but I have went against many M1 killers that has timed there hits perfectly to down me and other survivors. This may seem hard to explain with words but maybe a video can convince you. Do you watch otzdarva. He made a video recently where he played pig and the survivors had dead hard. One person was able to use dead hard to make it to a window, but still got down because the otzs timed the hit perfectly to make dead harding to the window a bad play
I'm sorry but I'm bit confused on the second concern. Could you explain more on this?
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I'm torn on Dead Hard. On one hand its absolute trash if the survivor is in a dead zone.
On the other hand a good survivor will almost never be in a dead zone and in the hands of a good survivor its an absurdly strong perk, at least before you know they have it.
I don't think it really needs nerfs. It's only super strong when combined with other meta perks. And a lot of the time if the survivor tries to actually play skillfully and attempt to dodge at the perfect time it'll just exhaust them on the ground.
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More like the perk is broken, but I can deal with one broken perk, but not 16 broken perks.
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Well yeah, you can out distance DH if you lunge at the right time. But what I'm referring to is the case where you can't do that because they have enough distance AWAY from you to DH into the pallet or vault, that's what I mean. If the Killer is right behind the Survivor and lunges at them, they'll either hit them or they'll DH into getting hit, since your lunge was farther than their initial distance boost.
Also the 2nd concern is the full comment. I don't understand what you mean by it, so I can't give an example. If you can provide a video, than I'll see what you mean. If it's what I think it's, than we're talking about two different scenarios that can happen in a chase. I'm talking about the case where you can't do anything to prevent it.
Well some people argue that reverting the perk back to its roots would solve the main issue DH poses in a match, since it used to just be a dodge perk but now it's a dodge + distance perk as well. Alone it's manageable, but if everyone uses it than it can be a handful. I didn't even mention if it's with other meta perks as well.
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The way I look at Dead Hard is this:
As a Killer, fair, but infuriating if you swing and they time it right.
As a Survivor, unfair, because most of the times it doesn't even work.
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True. That would make it considerably more skill based than it currently is. now it feels pretty brainless considering its a re-usable additional health state.
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I see it work all the time, I think it just doesn't work sometimes in tight areas... for some reason.
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To be honest, when it DOESN'T work and they like...Dead Hard right into a wall, that's kind of funny.
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I'm probably being the biggest idiot right now but...
In the case your describing i still attribute that to skill. The person was able to use dead hard skillfully in order to make it to a pallet in order to get the stun on the killer.
Follow my thought process for a second.
The person using dead hard was able to accurately predict when the killer would swing, use dead hard for instead making distance and not to prevent them from getting hit, and successfuly made it to the pallet and get the stun.
This plan would have surely back fired if they messed the timing up just a bit. They could have did it too early and wasted a pallet or they could have did it too late and get hit before getting to the pallet or got hit through the pallet.
With all of this, to pull this off consistently in my opinion takes skill.
P.S I would like to exclude niche cases where a person who does pull this off. This doesn't automatically mean they are skillful they just got lucky
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Happens a lot more often than people think, considering you can't steer the dash. Some people have actually saved themselves by DHing into the Killer, since you're still invincible during the dash... even when you're not actually dashing at all. Makes no sense tbh, but it's what it's.
I mean yeah if you're talking about timing it when it does apply in a chase than I guess that takes some skill? I'm talking about a case where they DH to a pallet because without that distance they would've been downed. There is no timing, there is no counter, they dash to a pallet for extra distance and get the stun. To me, that is unfair and I disagree it takes any skill.
But I can agree to disagree, we don't need to see eye to eye on it. It doesn't matter at the end of the day anyways.
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Yeah I think we have reached an equilibrium in arguing this and now this just a matter of opinion.
Thank you for keeping this discussion civil
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No problem.
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Killer main here. Dead Hard is perfectly fair when 99% of the survivor mains out there use it. The perk itself takes a small amount of skill and timing for the survivor to pull off, something I think encourages truly good survivor play. It's in the final 1% where it's an issue, ultra tryhard sweat teams that use it combined with the other ((FORBIDDEN)) perks in order to bully a killer relentlessly. However, that is another problem altogether and one that BHVR can't fix without neutering perks like DS. Unfortunately DS is necessary in Solo's as your potato teammates unhook you in front of the killer 99/100 times.
Also not a fan of when a good survivor uses it to extend their time in an infinite loop. Then again, why would you continue to chases survivors in an infinite??
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I see a lot of people using the words “correcting a mistake”. Honestly this is where you lose me, because as an avid Dead Hard user and someone who enjoys engaging in chases, sometimes it isn’t correcting a mistake, it is understanding how the perk works and yes extending the chase in some way. Many of the people who do this know that they could extend the chase at the risk of their Ping being on their side.
It is no different than someone holding (99ing) their SB or someone who has viciously or cautiously been looking out for where they could use their Lithe or BL.
Dead Heard’s distance isn’t worth any value if you are a good killer who will not swing. In a dead zone you will be exactly that... dead. You also have to account for the fact that you can’t dash at a curve, so you have to be very specific about when and how you use it.
I understand not liking it but I don’t agree with some of your points.
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The way I see it, survivor perks can be split into active / passive. Since they don't have any innate unique ability unlike killer, active perks are things that modify the survivor with an "ability" instead of a passive buff (e.g., Exhaustion Perks, Any Means Necessary, DS, Saboteur).
Similar to most killer abilities, DH situationally has counterplay. Just like how most killer powers have no counterplay in certain situations, DH has no counterplay in certain situations. I think more often than not, DH can be countered if you play around it. There are a lot of situations where you can recognize where survivors won't make it to X even with DH.
It can be annoying when you go against too many "active" perks in one game, but I wouldn't call DH by itself unfair.
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I think Dead Hard is an extremely unfair perk. However, as second chance perks go, it's not the worst, and as much as I hate to say it if all of the second chance perks were to go then so very many players would quit the game. So while I don't think it's fair, I don't think it should be changed. Except perhaps giving it a longer exhaustion period.
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Fair, just cause it dont work 50% of the time
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For context just remember how much survivors used to complain about Enduring/Spirit fury when it was meta. “Itz Da fwee hIt”
Dead Hard is basically the survivor equivalent. Except it takes 1 perk slot rather than 2 and doesnt require you to do anything beforehand.
DH is like if killers had enduring/SF on a button press every chase. Grants you a freebie you weren’t gonna get otherwise.
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Loop extender every chase basically.
Definately needs changes.
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Best perk in the game. To be honest, its not a fair perk... it allows for survivors to greed loops often without much of a risk. Allows you to get to window/pallets you wouldn't have made it to otherwise.
Allows you to avoid an otherwise certain blink hit. You can YEET over bear traps, avoid plague (and corrupt plague), huntress, clown and deathslingers projectiles.
You can JUST make it in time for a clutch unhook or JUST make enough distance to get hit out the exit gate.
You can avoid certain hits with dead hard with inexperienced killers who don't expect it. You can use the invulnerability at unsafe dropped pallets (basically force the killer to commit and swing at you, DH and then vault the pallet and gain distance).
Getting farmed? Spam shift + E and the killer might hit the unhooker.
Not to mention, it can be used multiple times in a game.
The best thing about DH is that you can go for silly or otherwise risky plays and still have a backup plan. I won't lie, I use it 99% of the time I play survivor. I feel like I play too safe (and boring) without it.
But It's not fair, no... tbh. Feels so bad playing killer and mindgaming only for them to use DH to gain distance. But as survivor it's amazing.
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Least favourite perk in the game, tied with NOED.
I love it when I mindgamed our outplayed a survivor at a vault or window, only to find out they were the ones who outplayed me by the simple press of a button, fixing their mistake in the process, that's bad perk design.
It's the biggest crutch in the game along with NOED.
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As a killer main that has dealt with Dead Hard fairly often, I can say that it only extends a chase for a little longer. To counter it just get close wait for them to pop it then hit them. Don't really know what the hype behind it is.
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So you know how to counter it but yet are still complaining that it is unfair. Dead hard legit does hurt you as a killer at all even if they "dead hard for distance" that's only about 5-10 secs wasted depending on the loop. Yeah sure if they dead hard for distance to a pallet it has no counter play, but yet there are still god pallets in the game. I think God pallets are more of a worry then dead hard. Hell there is even wrongful use of ds as well there are many things survivor can do that has no counterplay that are more important then dead hard.
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Holding your sprint burst requires you to waste quite a lot of time.
Not every area you are right now has places to use lithe or BL.
Nobody really cares that it's a chase extender (which is every exhaustion perk anyway).
The annoying and kind of unfair thing about dead hard is that you can erase great plays by the killer that weren't easy to do by a simple push of a button.
Imagine you made a great play as survivor and pretty much outplayed the killer but now he has perk that would give him the hit anyway.It would feel pretty unfair right?
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I think DH is one of the more balanced perks. It's easily to counter, easy to use. It's a nice 50/50 perk.
Honestly I don't think there's much to say regarding it.
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Dead Hard has no downside (other than lag) or counterplay (other than "run exhaustion add-ons").
This is not inherently unfair, as perks being a pure plus can be totally fine (botany, lightweight, or brutal strength for example).
The problem is that on top of being a pure plus, it's also a massive bonus, effectively +1 health state on every single chase as long as you aren't oneshot.
So... yeah. Open and shut case, completely unfair, but it's a survivor perk, so I expect to see nerfs some time between "avian pig independence day" and "the Hades Ice-skating tournament".
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Considering it completely fails and leaves you spasming on the ground with Exhaustion half the time, yeah, I think Dead Hard is alright.
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I main nurse, so second chance perks don't really bother me much... But I don't think DH is unfair. It gives less distance than the other exhaustion perks, the other ones just feel like an 'Oh, they got away' rather than the immediate denial of a down that dead hard gives. It's the mental planning that it disrupts that really makes people dislike it, but I don't think it's any more oppressive than other exhaustion perks. I'd much rather someone have the predictable dead hard and I can outplay it and hit them a second later, rather than sprint burst which disrupts the entire start of a chase. If they use it for distance, then it's just like any other exhaustion perk. Situational, they had to be in position that would allow them to use it. Good survivors can put themselves in this position often. I've played against a LOT of people who are bad with dead hard, and they basically forfeit a perk slot, or give me hits thinking I won't account for it. Dead hard is hard to outplay against people skilled with it, and that's where the frustration comes in.
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Dead Hard is like old DS. It can delay that highly important 1st hook.
Wish I could find that game of Umbra as Oni and an early game dead hard completely screws her as the survivor makes it to a god pallet and then just combos off that.
I’ve had a number of games where a DH for distance just adds so much time onto the first chase, often it ends with me having to change targets mid chase at that point which leaves me with an injure rather than a hook.
Anything on the survivor side that delays the 1st hook is extremely powerful. It’s why old DS was infinitely worse than new DS and people forget that. Exhaustion perks are the same.
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"The annoying and kind of unfair thing about dead hard is that you can erase great plays by the killer that weren't easy to do by a simple push of a button."
This can literally be said about every exhaust perk. You don't have a pallet but you have a window? You can get away with Lithe. Don't have either but your SB is 99'd? You can go to an area that does.
You can deny that it isn't about extending a chase, but that is exactly what it is about. If you are competent enough you can bait DH out.
Oh and about a killer being able to hit you anyway... you mean kind of how you can't dodge an Oni hit?
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How is a perk unfair what is not working 90% of the time.
Dead hard can be countered easily.
if you say Dead hard is unfair then a lot of things on the killer side are also unfair.
Dedicated servers, bloodlust, Spirit fury enduring combo, aim assist, lunge of killers, insta downs, moris etc etc
there are a lot of other unfair perks on the survivor side and you choose the one who is probably the worse because its not working mostly.
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You can't compare Dead Hard to the other exhaustion perks at all.
My problem is that you could have made a really good play as killer (like a n awesome hatchet throw,a good curve as billy or a perfectly executed lethal rush as blight) that took a lot of effort to pull off on the killer side but very little effort on the survivor side.
Which is why i don't have any problems with the other exhaustion perks,because they simply aren't as strong as Dead Hard.
Also,you can dodge an Oni hit.It's not easy,sure,but that's how it supposed to be and there are many videos/streams i've seen where people manage to dodge it.
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DH for distance = unfair, uncounterable and broken mess that must be fixed, unless devs want survivors to have stuff that have zero counterplay.
DH to dodge hits = balanced, fair and counterable.
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How are dedicated servers unfair? They were put in to make the game more fair
Bloodlust - Was put in to counter infinites which were unfair. Still some extremely strong windows where bloodlust does nothing. Maybe 2 and 3 are unfair but 1 is kind of needed to counter how strong holding W can be
enduring/spirit fury - takes 2 perk slots and 2 pallet breaks. If DH required 2 perk slots and 2 pallet stuns I dont think anyone would hate it as much.
Aim assist? It hurts more than it helps lol!
Lunges - Really?
instadowns - Most are balanced and have requirements. Keyword most.
Moris - Nobody is going to deny that moris are unfair. Not sure how that makes DH fair.
You’re complaining mostly about base mechanics. It would be like me saying pallets are unfair.
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Again. I gave you examples of where a survivor can get away via an exhaustion perk even tho you were technically “dead”.
You talk about specific scenarios where by makes killers more vulnerable... well what about when bloodlust kicks in because you refuse to break a pallet? How is that fair? No type of skilled mind-game can avoid that hit.
Like, you literally had to come up with specific scenarios in order to prove your point. Dead Hard is weak in comparison to other perks like SB. Because SB can get you out of more situations where DH couldn’t.
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Interesting topic. This perk is unfair in situations when there is nothing you can do to play around it, and it buys survivor team a lot of time, sometimes making difference between win and loss, escape or death for survivors. My biggest problem with it is that not only it cant be counterplayed when its used for distance, but it counters a lot of killers abilities, and skillful plays using that ability just by pressing a single button. It feels extremely cheap in this situations, because there is absolutely nothing you as a killer can do to play around dead hard, and its not a skillful play by survivor either, all you need to do is press a button in a correct timing.
For example Punishment of the Damned is easily avoidable on reaction. There is literally nothing you can do, Dead Hard will always guarantee a survivor one "outplay" over it. I dont play Huntress, but i think same applies to her Hatchet throw? Blights Lethal Rush: in most situations killer wont have another object nearby to bait a deadhard or time/charges to do it, so it will be one free escape for survivor with DH. Hillbillies Chainsaw. DH over Bear Trap. This is probably the most notable killers abilities that are freely dodged by DH.
While DH for distance becomes less relevant the longer the match goes, since there will be less pallets and more deadzones, DH against this killer abilities is always free and easy unpreventable dodge. And its my main problem with this perk, since i main Blight and Pyramid Head. It always feels cheap when i shoudve landed a cool PotD shot, but a survivor just pressed "E" lmao.
And as others said the more survivors have this perk in a match, the more impact it has on the outcome. I lost many matches solely due to Dead Hard, and the time it buys for survivors. No doubt about it. I think if anyone will count how much time he lost due to DH every match, results are gonna be shocking.
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You don't have to agree with my points, that's fine.
But I still don't see how "correcting a mistake" isn't valid in the argument at hand, since it's what a lot of Survivors use it for to extend chases. I've also debated that using it for distance to extend chases does not take any skill, if it really does not much.
You also can't avoid it all together by not swinging at certain scenarios, they just use it for distance at a safe pace which would've normally gotten them downed and they vault the window or drop the pallet. If they mess up the loop and almost get downed, than they can use it to correct that mistake by simply using DH to make up for the lost distance.
The perk itself is fair in certain scenarios, but it others I don't see it to be fair. Yes in a deadzone it's basically useless, but at certain long loops it can be a nightmare, especially when most Survivors who run it just use it for distance now.
But again, we don't need to see eye to eye on this.
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It is unfair when used correctly.
Killers need to outplay a survivor 2 to 3 times for a single hit (depending on the loop) meaning survivors can make 2 to 3 mistakes per the killers one mistake in a chase when using this perk. Then you have its ability to make distance (this part should be removed) allowing a survivor to reach loops that they should not reach or stretch out a loop far beyond what it should do and reset the chase.
The perk also 100% counters killers like Blight and Nurse turning every survivor into a 3 hit down per chase.
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Dead Hard only needs a minor tweak for realism, which is to not to be able to Dead Hard through a Killer (and even then, it's not as if it annoys me).
It's a good defence and a strong perk, but as has been mentioned before it's also got the potential to act less like a perk and more a hinderance (misjudging using it, dead hard into a wall).
I don't think it needs any change, other than for realism.
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And I agree with you on this, certain situations with the perk itself can actually be unfair while others are completely fair. Some argue that DH does take some sort of skill, which it does to some point, but in certain cases it does not... like the distance argument.
Or they could just revert it by to a dodge perk, rather than a dodge + distance perk. The extra exhaustion might be overkill though for specifically deadhard, since than you'd have to argue if the other exhaustion perks deserve the same treatment.
So I don't know, my goal wasn't to get it nerfed anyways, it's just a debate I wanted to bring up since it's interesting to see how people see the perk itself.
Well, for the sake of theory we'll say the perk does work 100% of the time again. What do you think of it then? Is the perk still fair or unfair? Or is it only fair in some cases while others it's not?
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I think in the case of Enduring + Spirit Fury it was different, since you had to actually break 2 pallets for it to activate. DH could be used at the start of the game, with an added exhaustion debuff of course, but still.
Either way, in the case of the comparison I'd say the drawback to using the perk is a lot less than that combo, since like you said it takes 2 slots to use and it requires 2 pallets to break in-game. In a way it's the same yeah, just not literally in terms of when it's used and the conditions it has.
Well in the case of the advanced uses the perk has, I personally see that to be creative and in comparison to the other scenarios fair. But is the perk 100% fair? Not really, not to me anyways. And sometimes that's a reason for people to dislike something or want something changed, since the unfair bits might outweigh the fair ones.
It's mostly the unfair bits like the distance meme and how the perk can avoid several things like Trappers traps, Hags traps, projectiles, etc. Usually when it's mentioned as unfair, these points are brought up. That doesn't mean the points are unreasonable (at least I don't think so), but the distance and correction of mistakes aspect to the perk is why some (like me) dislike it.
That isn't to say I don't know how to counter it, but in some cases you can't.
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I'm not complaining about it actually, hence why I said that I didn't want it nerfed. If that happened than it must be for a reason, but the whole point of the post was to bring up certain aspects of the perk that're unavoidable or in better terms unfair.
If we go back to the point about the distance argument, you have no idea if that extended the chase for 5 - 10 seconds or 2 minutes. Depending on who's using it, even the worst survivor can extend a chase with a lot of well placed loops in the area. In some cases it does waste only a few seconds, but usually when it's used at a loop than other loops are nearby for further chases.
And yes, I do know how to counter it, sometimes you can't counter the perk at all though.
Those dates are interesting despite being a joke... I think... But yeah, it isn't inherently unfair it's just certain cases it is.
Well, that isn't really how the perk is supposed to function anyways. I guess I'm speaking theoretically since it does fail sometimes like you said and uses the exhaustion anyways, I just hardly notice it ever failing like that as Killer, so it doesn't feel like that issue exists in the first place. So in a way, I'm talking as if that unintentional bug didn't exist, since it really doesn't most of the time.
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Well both SP and DH have their own uses, but I don't personally consider one to be better than the other. The reason for this is that SP gives an advantage at the start of the chase, which at the end of its boost is entirely based on the Survivors skills after.
In terms of how DH functions, it's based on the Survivors skills for the first half, while in most cases it's used for distance and corrects a potential down. After that the chase continues and the Survivor might waste more time just from that one save, so in a way it can be a lot more demoralizing that SP, at least in my eyes anyways.
Well... not really when comparing it to old DS. Yes the perk in a way can get more time out of a chase than DS could, but old DS could be activated whenever as the obsession and non-obsessions only need a 40% wiggle bar to use it. In a way, old DS had zero counter-play, while DH at least as some in certain cases.
But I see what you mean by the potential for DH, it really just depends on the situation at the end of the day. Old DS could even extend chases too and you couldn't even avoid it at all.
I hardly ever notice that bug, in-fact I think I've only encountered it 3 times in the past year since the bug started. And yes, a lot of things on the Killer side are also unfair, but that's not the point I was trying to make.
The point I was trying to make is how the perk works in certain cases that cannot be avoided, that doesn't mean other Killer perks should also be ignored.
The distance part paired with the mistake correction potential is usually what bothers most people about the perk. It's unfortunately all because of the distance portion of the perk and not the dodge aspect itself.
As for the other point, if used in creative and tricky plays that COULD get you downed, it's fair in my eyes and I'm sure most others as well.
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DH usually applies to everything because it has invincibility frames. In the past I would say that the invincibility is in the distance portion of the perk itself, but a few years back I realized that the perk actually just gives FLAT invincibility frames, even if the Survivor DH's into a wall and the Killer swings at them.
It's happened many times to me actually where I catch the survivor in a corner and they DH when I swing, I miss somehow despite them not even gaining any distance, but was still able to down them because they got pushed into a wall around a loop. This actually happens a lot more often than you think.
So yeah, it does avoid Huntresses hatchets, Corrupted Plague, Bear Traps, etc. Anything that has a hitbox is ignored for the duration of DHs activation, which is... odd. I guess it's because it used to be a dodge perk which makes sense, but the distance perk being invincible is why people don't usually like it.
As for DH for distance not being relevant as the match progresses, this is only half true if you haven't baited everyone who potentially has it. If the entire team has it, it can still be an issue because of the distance/mistake correction argument, despite knowing they have it.
In a way, the perk really just depends on which situation it's in to be deemed fair or unfair. The distance issue to me is unfair, while cleaver plays that require a risk is fair.
Some people have said that the perk getting reverted back to a dodge perk would be the most reasonable thing in terms of a nerf. While this post wasn't to get the perk nerfed, it's the most reasonable change that anyone can really suggest to the perk.
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Well... I wouldn't call it realism since we're playing a game in a alternate dimension that's owned by a omnipotent entity... I'd say it's more for the sake of balance I guess? Idk...
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Extending the chase is the purpose of the perk otherwise what is it suppose to do?
I get that you don’t like the perk but it is not as strong or unfair as people think. Not when you can do much more with other perks. At close range this perk shines, at longer range other perks are far better.
If you are whiffing a lot because you can’t bait it out, that’s on you. That’s like saying that just because you whiff at window fake techs it must be broken and survivors shouldn’t be able to keep sliding against the wall.
I’ve had so many people try to use DH mid 360 and fail miserably. It’s really not hard to bait out. Especially when they have nowhere else to go.
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I think dead hard is fine as it is, I play killer a ton and most people that I run into dont use dead hard they use sprint burst
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It wasn't originally to extend a chase via distance, it was originally used as a dodge perk before it was changed into a dodge + distance perk.
Also I wasn't implying that the perk is busted either, I was simply stating that the perk itself has cases where the Killer cannot prevent or counter it when it's used. Hence why the distance and mistake correction argument continues to be brought up, since that's what most Survivors use it for now because that's the meta. Some use it for more creative and complex strategies which in my eyes is fair since they could possible make a mistake and go down, but in the case for DH for distance I don't think it's fair.
Whiffing the hits has nothing to do with it, if I whiff a hit that's my fault depending on what's happening in that scenario, but there are cases where lunging or doing nothing doesn't matter, since they'll reach their destination anyways.
To be clear, I'm not talking about 360 DHs, DHs for saves, DHs in complex loops, etc. I'm mainly focusing on the perk itself, the scenarios that're unfair with it, and even how the perk can affect the match if multiple people use it. That's not even mentioning how it pairs with other perks.
I can counter DH, I've done it for years, but there are some cases where you can't counter it at all because of the distance.
The opposite is for me funny enough. I actually see people use SP less than DH, probably because DH is a lot easier to manage and use than SP is. SP is a acquired taste... it takes a certain amount of management to use or 99%, which requires you to slow down.
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Dead hard can be broken af but sometimes the payoff is good. *sometimes*
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