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Discord makes survivors unbalanced.
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@Vankruze said:
So you do agree with me then?With what?
That the devs don't make the rules within their own games?
That voice-coms is cheating?Then no, I don't.
No one is that stupid to suggest that voice-coms don't provide an unfair advantage. As long as the devs don't see it as cheating, I honestly don't care.
Edit: ######### my insomnia.
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@Vankruze said:
You just said "Who said it didn't?" when I said it creates an unfair advantage. Now you say "No one is that stupid to suggest that voice-coms provide an unfair advantage". That looks awfully close to being a contradiction which indicates to me you don't have a point and just jumped on the band wagon for the sake of an argument you don't fully understand.#########, sorry, I meant that no one is that stupid to suggest that voicecoms don't provide an unfair advantage.
Insomnia's a #########.
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Did you seriously just do the whole because someone is a furry they jack off to it stereotyping stuff like seriously get some information about it a small percentage do that or view the anthropomorphic characters that way alot just like the good detailed artwork that people can spend a entire day on drawing humans is easy drawing a character with realistic fur muzzle shape correct tail size and shape weather its corse or soft fur floofy or flat and then there's the sense of acceptance and family that alot of people who's feel like outcast's dont fit in find it a welcoming community that alot of furs main goal is to make people smile and if someone decides to become one from feeling accepted by strangers so they don't feel alone knowing they have friends that will go above and beyond to help them and the way you go is hes a fur so he must jack off to it route have some consideration in future of what people choose to be apart of and there reasoning behind ityeet said:
i don't really think people need to be informed as to what you jack off too on the dbd forumsredsopine1 said:
Boops you * I'm a fur so I have paws not hands so its a facepaw and yes before I was adamant vc outside ps and exbix was losted under 3rd party but once it was explained I realized I was mistaken and apoligizedyeet said:
did you really just say that...redsopine1 said:
Facepaws * read all the comments someone explained what the 3rd party stuff was in detail and I realized I was wrong and apologizedGrey87 said:@redsopine1 said:
Hey have a look at the ban section it states any third party means is a ban offense the exception is the console's as they have voice chat built inOk, I'll just use steam's built in voice chat xD
Wow, now I really am not sure it this guy is a troll or actually serious.0 -
@MagnumTA said:
They should allow talking in this game. So many people use Discord, and other talking apps. That it completely throws game balance off. That it's is the soul reason that some people may complain about killer imbalance. But they may not know, in actuality, it's these talking services that completely unbalances the game. Making killers too weak to compete in a game were talking is not allowed. Make killers strong enough to compete with Discord!!How bloody stupid
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@TheBean said:
@DeadByFlashlight said:
With the new report system coming, it falls under the category "use at own risk".
I asked the support and they confirmed that, any 3rd party programs not on the whitelist of EAC are "use at own risk" nowhaha... that will mean using Microsoft Word... Or using your driver software for all the different devices and stuff on your PC will be use at your own risk. They would need to list every software product that you could use on your PC, while you have the game running.. Which would never even be feasible. So basically almost every software product will be a "use at your own risk" situation.
What are teachers teaching in highschool anyways??... Seems like there are allot of idiots graduating these days.
I can't wait until you start reporting people using their new tool, whenever that gets done, then realizing they won't be banning for it. luls.
How do you get an ingame advantage from using word?
The devs have been pretty precise and the support confirmed their wording. Maybe they didnt go to school and know what the words mean, but I can read indeed, can you?
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@Vankruze said:
Voice coms SWF creates an unfair advantage, the devs opinion about it doesn't change that fact!
However it isn't cheating. Since the Devs make the rules as they see fit and they don't consider it cheating. So keep trying to jump that hurdle.
Remember that one when you keep trying to group those two statement together like in your previous posts.
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@DeadByFlashlight said:
How do you get an ingame advantage from using word?
The devs have been pretty precise and the support confirmed their wording. Maybe they didnt go to school and know what the words mean, but I can read indeed, can you?Have fun with reporting people for using VOIPs. Would be funny if you and the other salty killers who can't handle playing the game start getting banned for abusing the reporting tool. All those killer players are lumped in with the cry babies going on about how tunneling and camping should be banned. One in the same.
The Devs really need to crack down on misusing that tool if they are going to redesign it again. The whole reason it got take away from everyone and put back to the ingame was because of sore losers and kids.
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Ok to the op of this discussion one I apologize for the trolling until I got proven wrong and two sorry for arguing with someone about non dbd stuff bye0
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The official discord for Dead By Daylight has 20 SWF Voice chats. Discord is in no way banable and never will be. The game should add voice and balance around it... What about people that play in the same house/room? What about people using phone apps? I mean to even attempt to enforce this would be dumb and a waste of time/money.
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Also proximity chats would sole it plus try spamming music and give everyone away who's going to want to play or help somone that just gives them away for a laugh0
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@Vankruze said:
@TheBean said:
@Vankruze said:
Voice coms SWF creates an unfair advantage, the devs opinion about it doesn't change that fact!
However it isn't cheating. Since the Devs make the rules as they see fit and they don't consider it cheating. So keep trying to jump that hurdle.
Remember that one when you keep trying to group those two statement together like in your previous posts.
IN MY OPINION IT IS CHEATING, god I hate repeating myself! pay attention or don't address me period!
Who said you weren't allowed to have your opinion. However if you can't keep it to yourself and keep trying to call people cheaters in the forums for something the Devs don't consider cheating, don't expect people to call you out on it.
Like the fear mongers trying to say they will report you for using VOIP and quote that rule in their bannable offenses like it is some bible script.
Players are allowed to use it and the Devs don't consider them cheating for doing so. So your crappy opinion on it doesn't matter and should be kept to yourself.
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@Boomer said:
The official discord for Dead By Daylight has 20 SWF Voice chats. Discord is in no way banable and never will be. The game should add voice and balance around it... What about people that play in the same house/room? What about people using phone apps? I mean to even attempt to enforce this would be dumb and a waste of time/money.This is most likely the only reason why voice communications are not officially considered as cheating ; even though the use of such 3rd party program to get some advantage, fits right into the dev's cheating definition.
This type of thing are just as old as the world: when something is forbidden by a law, but that law can't be enforced anymore, people start doing what what's forbidden with impunity and the victims get really angry. The only solution is to legalize what was once forbidden, because when you can't make the crime go away, you just need to sap the victims expectation for justice.
So YES, voice communication is definitelly cheating in any game that doesn't provide that service by itself, BUT since the devs can't do anything about it, they probably act as if that was the plan all along.
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@Utna said:
This is most likely the only reason why voice communications are not officially considered as cheating ; even though the use of such 3rd party program to get some advantage, fits right into the dev's cheating definition.This type of thing are just as old as the world: when something is forbidden by a law, but that law can't be enforced anymore, people start doing what what's forbidden with impunity and the victims get really angry. The only solution is to legalize what was once forbidden, because when you can't make the crime go away, you just need to sap the victims expectation for justice.
So YES, voice communication is definitelly cheating in any game that doesn't provide that service by itself, BUT since the devs can't do anything about it, they probably act as if that was the plan all along.
It is too bad that your opinion on the matter doesn't mean anything.
This isn't the law, no one is at risk of going to jail or suffer any penalties because of it. In fact they never did.
It was allowed since day 1 of SWF. It wasn't something that was forbidden or against the rules until the Dev threw up their hands. They knew this was going to be the case from day one, since players were dodging lobbies trying to play with their friends and use VOIP.Unless the Devs say it is cheating and breaking their rules, then it isn't cheating. Your opinion on believing it is cheating by equating it to some other argument is irrelevant.
The Devs make up the rules for their game. They make the exceptions to those rules for their game. Just because you don't see it written down for you, doesn't mean it isn't there. The rules people keep quoting about what is bannable and not, I believe, came in existence AFTER SWF and them using VOIP. Thus those rules were not made with VOIP being a problem.
Call them cheating all you want. However, the Devs don't consider it cheating since they are not banning for using VOIP and because they do it themselves. Basically suck it up and get used to it.
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@TheBean said:
Call them cheating all you want. However, the Devs don't consider it cheating since they are not banning for using VOIP and because they do it themselves.As I said sometimes it is far more easier to bend before an injustice that we can't do anything about than actually trying to fight it. All I said earlier isn't against the devs nor anyone using voice communication: this is just human nature (or just the way it is, if you prefer).
Netherless, when a game designer bring a videogame to "life" without giving its players the opportunity to communicate ... there you have pretty much good idea of what was and what wasn't intended. And to push tis idea even further, we might say that there are until this day no integrated voice communication service AND no dedicated servers, which are much needed to deal with the extra weight of people streaming together. Not to mention that BHRV didn't told us about adding this features into the game.
This isn't hard to understand : think of it as if you played pocker with your friends and suddenly you get up your chair and start peeping at other player's cards.
*Can you do it ? YES !
*Can someone pinn you down with force, because you tried. YES !! But they won't because that's too risky.
*But if no one stops you, are you still cheating ? YES !!!
*So, should you do it ? NO, definitely, NO !!!! (unless the devs finally make room in their game for it with a special game mode or something)0 -
@Utna said:
As I said sometimes it is far more easier to bend before an injustice that we can't do anything about than actually trying to fight it. All I said earlier isn't against the devs nor anyone using voice communication: this is just human nature (or just the way it is, if you prefer).
Netherless, when a game designer bring a videogame to "life" without giving its players the opportunity to communicate ... there you have pretty much good idea of what was and what wasn't intended. And to push tis idea even further, we might say that there are until this day no integrated voice communication service AND no dedicated servers, which are much needed to deal with the extra weight of people streaming together. Not to mention that BHRV didn't told us about adding this features into the game.
This isn't hard to understand : think of it as if you played pocker with your friends and suddenly you get up your chair and start peeping at other player's cards.
*Can you do it ? YES !
*Can someone pinn you down with force, because you tried. YES !! But they won't because that's too risky.
*But if no one stops you, are you still cheating ? YES !!!
*So, should you do it ? NO, definitely, NO !!!! (unless the devs finally make room in their game for it with a special game mode or something)The huge difference when peeking at your friends cards while playing poker... Is that you would be cheating.
When using VOIP isn't cheating while playing SWF.
Big difference there. That was such a crappy comparison that you blew my mind on how ignorant people can be. That is as bad as your law comparison.
People actually consider you looking at another players cards in poker as cheating.
Just because YOU think it is cheating when using VOIP while playing SWF is cheating doesn't make it so. There are ALLOT of people who think using VOIP while playing SWF IS NOT cheating. THAT IS THE BIG DIFFERENCE WHEN YOU ARE PLAYING POKER. EVERYONE THINKS LOOKING AT ANOTHER PLAYERS CARDS IS CHEATING.
What the hell. What other crappy comparisons are you going to make to try and justify why you lose against SWF players using VOIP. Accept it and move on.
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@TheBean
Can you say anything to contradict my last post, beside just telling my opinion does not matter, or pretending my ideas are wrong because I do lose sometimes ?None of it are relevant in this conversation and as I believe I gave you some intelligible argument, I expect you to do the same, or at least to leave the discussion table and let someone else deal with me.
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@Vankruze said:
IN MY OPINION IT IS CHEATING, god I hate repeating myself!
We can all have an opinion. Someone can argue and debate that Nickelback is the greatest band of all time. It is an opinion. Just like voice comms is cheating. Both Nickelback being the greatest and Voice comms is cheating are both examples of opinions that sane people know is just not true.
So you can keep arguing and debating, but the end all be all is the developers of the game. They are the ones who ban for cheating. No one will get banned, as pointed out earlier, therefore it is not cheating.
Some people just really fail to understand that they are wrong and admit they are wrong. If you would like to admit it Vankruze there is still time.
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@Utna said:
None of it are relevant in this conversation and as I believe I gave you some intelligible argument, I expect you to do the same, or at least to leave the discussion table and let someone else deal with me.I will give you an intelligent argument here.
There is this thing called the social contract written in various forms by Hobbes, Locke, and Rousseau. The social contract is a theory or philosophy that the state is greater than the individual. Basically, the "state" being the governing body and the "individual" being the person enter a contract with one another that the "individual" gives up some of their rights to join the "state." These rights are giving up decisions on laws, taxes, rules, regulations, property etc. in exchange for a good or service.
In this case, you the player of Dead By Daylight purchased the game, approved the EULA when signing in, and play the game. You have signed away some of your rights to play DbD. Those rights include but are not limited to data being recorded, playing by the rules BHVR has established, etc.
In exchange, BHVR sets the rules and regulations and helps protect the community. It does not mean you can not respectfully challenge their authority, but you have to get the law changed for it to occur. In this case, BHVR, the governing body, does not see voice communications as cheating. Therefore, it is not cheating.
To use your poker example if the majority of the people at the table allow your behavior and think it is ok then the social contract is that peeking at cards is ok to do. It does not mean that 1 person cannot find that wrong, but they gave up that right when they sat down at the table.
So the majority of the player base is ok using voice comms and the governing body reflects that making it legal to do. Therefore it is not cheating.
If you are unhappy with that decision you can respectfully challenge that request or do what most people do, leave. Many people leave countries, cities, etc because they don't agree with the laws that are provided. You don't have to play by the rules, but you have to accept them while you are playing the game and in the community.
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@Nightmare247 said:
@Utna said:
None of it are relevant in this conversation and as I believe I gave you some intelligible argument, I expect you to do the same, or at least to leave the discussion table and let someone else deal with me.I will give you an intelligent argument here.
There is this thing called the social contract written in various forms by Hobbes, Locke, and Rousseau. The social contract is a theory or philosophy that the state is greater than the individual. Basically, the "state" being the governing body and the "individual" being the person enter a contract with one another that the "individual" gives up some of their rights to join the "state." These rights are giving up decisions on laws, taxes, rules, regulations, property etc. in exchange for a good or service.
In this case, you the player of Dead By Daylight purchased the game, approved the EULA when signing in, and play the game. You have signed away some of your rights to play DbD. Those rights include but are not limited to data being recorded, playing by the rules BHVR has established, etc.
In exchange, BHVR sets the rules and regulations and helps protect the community. It does not mean you can not respectfully challenge their authority, but you have to get the law changed for it to occur. In this case, BHVR, the governing body, does not see voice communications as cheating. Therefore, it is not cheating.
To use your poker example if the majority of the people at the table allow your behavior and think it is ok then the social contract is that peeking at cards is ok to do. It does not mean that 1 person cannot find that wrong, but they gave up that right when they sat down at the table.
So the majority of the player base is ok using voice comms and the governing body reflects that making it legal to do. Therefore it is not cheating.
If you are unhappy with that decision you can respectfully challenge that request or do what most people do, leave. Many people leave countries, cities, etc because they don't agree with the laws that are provided. You don't have to play by the rules, but you have to accept them while you are playing the game and in the community.
1/ I've read "Le contrat social" which wasn't from Hobbes or Locke ... It was from Rousseau and he would have NEVER EVER said that the state was greater than individual beings (at least not like that). You must have mixed it with the "Leviathan" from Hobbes.
2/ Having an opinion does not make me a challenger of anyone, let alone BHRV. Having an opinion makes me an human being and sharing it here in the forums opens it to a most welcome criticizm. So please believe me, I'm not planning for a coup, nor demanding anyone to surrender to my point of view. However, I wished @TheBean gave me answers that I can logicaly understand (that's what I mean by "intelligible", as opposed to "intelligent" like you said).
3/ I've already explained twice why BHRV should better not call voice comm user "cheaters". They would have too much to loose over a problem they canno't possibly control: since they can't prevent players using communication programs, they're legalizing it ... maybe not because they like it, but probably because it is simplier than having to deal with people complaining about cheaters not being punished.
4/ If BHRV liked the idea of having DBD players on headphones, they should probably provide a communication service to their players, and rules to go with them ... something like proximity chat discreet killers could overhear, or new items like talky walky, etc. This isn't science fiction ; many online playing game had these features running right at their begining ... but DBD never had any of it ; is that a coincidence ?
5/ Let's talk poker some more (just to be clear, I'm diving into it again so it might be clearer to anyone who reads this ... ethics are cool to understand even if we don't always agree with each idea). So you're getting up and peeking at my cards behind my back and nobody's stopping you.
First of all, we all know peeping at someone's elses cards is cheating, because it grants an unwanted advantage in a game that wasn't designed to support such behavior. Alright, so why does nobody stops you ?You tell me because the majority agrees with it. Let me tell you, if I was at a table where people had the right to peep each other cards, I'd tell them "Hey guys, that's cheating, in fact, you're not even playing pocker !"
After telling them that, I'd stay a little while to see if their version of the game is interesting and eventually be gone if I don't like it. However, telling those players they were doing something odd and franckly quite counter-intuitive would have been my right, and by doing so, I would have been right to give them my opinion. Imagine you where the only anti slavery person in a room full of masters in the XVIII century ... the majority of people would have cast you out for thinking their ways was wrong, but does their number made them right anyway ?
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Actually... Consider the following:
Exploits: Abusing bugs or errors in design to gain a competitive advantage
- Exploit bugs, errors in design, or undocumented features to gain access to what otherwise would not be available or to obtain a competitive advantage
In-game report REQUIRED / Customer Support ticket OPTIONAL
There isn't voice communication in the game by design, and the communicative aspects of the game when in the trial is seriously limited. 3rd party software is used to gain access to what otherwise would no be available to obtain in the game, and it is to gain a competitive advantage!
You still don't think it's bannable offense? By their rules it actually is. Then you can wonder why it is they don't ban people who keep violating the rules, and they can even see many of these on the various discord servers where BHVR actually has their staff in.
Note: The rule part is taken directly from their official rules located here: https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/19450/game-rules-and-report-system#latest
0 - Exploit bugs, errors in design, or undocumented features to gain access to what otherwise would not be available or to obtain a competitive advantage
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@Vankruze said:
Does voice coms create an unfair advantage? Yes! by definition that's cheating. I think it's a bit of a stretch to compare that with nickelback as a goat band and calling me insane at the same time lol I love how you can't manage a civil conversation without going personal says a lot about your character, have a nice day!
I just asked if you would like to admit you are wrong. There was nothing personal there. However, your argument still makes no sense.
Does Usain Bolt who is naturally faster than everyone else create an unfair advantage? How about Michael Phelps? Those two broke many records, but they are not equal on the competition level standard, but they are not cheating.
Does voice comms elevate the team's ability to win? Yes. Does it create an unfair advantage? Sure, but it is not tampering with, the keywording you are missing with your arguments, TAMPERING with the game files directly. If Usain Bolt or Phelps used drugs to enhance their performance and were caught because they are breaking the rules that would be cheating. However, Teams using voice comms are not cheating because it is not against the rules.
You can interpret it however you like, but it is not cheating. You can say there is an advantage gained, but cheating it is not.
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@Utna said:
4/ If BHRV liked the idea of having DBD players on headphones, they should probably provide a communication service to their players, and rules to go with them ... something like proximity chat discreet killers could overhear, or new items like talky walky, etc. This isn't science fiction ; many online playing game had these features running right at their begining ... but DBD never had any of it ; is that a coincidence ?
However, in today's gaming environment this is not a viable solution. 1. BHVR would need to implement Dedicated servers, which I agree needs to be done, before they could even implement this. There is too much strain on the killer's bandwidth already that we are seeing really crappy network connections in game.
2. There are too many third-party audio programs that proximity chat would not help. If this were 1990 maybe, but today we have programs like Discord, Ventrillo, Steam Voice, Skype, Facebook Messenger, and Teamspeak. You cannot force players to use in-game chat. They will probably have a P2T button but SWF teams are probably already in one of the above-mentioned programs. So proximity chat would be useless with Push to Talk anyway because it would be assigned to a different keybind.
3. The consoles also have their own party chat system which could be programmed for proximity chat, but if you cannot implement it across all platforms why implement it at all.0 -
@Vankruze said:
IN MY OPINION IT IS CHEATING, god I hate repeating myself! pay attention or don't address me period!
Ok but you said earlier the devs opinion doesn't matter, so how is your opinion more valuable than theirs? Why is your opinion more valid than their's, why does their's not matter? You want everyone to accept your opinion but not heirs, don't you see how that's going to be an issue?
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I was taking a shower and suddenly heard the sound of a slap. Checked dbd forum and saw it came from @powerbats replying to @Vankruzepowerbats said:@Vankruze said:
IN MY OPINION IT IS CHEATING, god I hate repeating myself! pay attention or don't address me period!
Ok but you said earlier the devs opinion doesn't matter, so how is your opinion more valuable than theirs? Why is your opinion more valid than their's, why does their's not matter? You want everyone to accept your opinion but not heirs, don't you see how that's going to be an issue?
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@Nightmare247 said:
2. There are too many third-party audio programs that proximity chat would not help. If this were 1990 maybe, but today we have programs like Discord, Ventrillo, Steam Voice, Skype, Facebook Messenger, and Teamspeak. You cannot force players to use in-game chat.And if they did used Discord instead of the game's proximity chat, they would be cheating don't you agree ? Just like you said there would be no point to prohibit the use of a 3rd party voice comm program, since the devs canno't prevent it or punish it in any ways.
That's exaclty what I was talking about, and you just agreed with it ... if there where a DBD chat service available. But think about it: what makes it so different than our current situation ?
Not only DBD was obviously designed far from the idea of voice communication (killer perk snitching after one survivor dies, perks like "Bond" designed to provide informations but those are useless because of Discord, etc, ...) but within two years of the game's existence, BHRV has done nothing to fix any of those problems. Which make me think their state of mind on the matter might be "Oh you want to play like that ? Well f*ck it, I'm not gonna help !"
The fact that they legalized it, because it was inevitable, has nothing to do with the fact that using these programs is indeed cheating ... not because of the law, but by moral standards. Think of it like that:
If Usain Bolt used a drug to make him faster, but that drug couldn't be detected, Is he cheating : YES
If the Olympic commission knows he's using the drug but can't prove it. Is he still cheating : YES
If the Olympic commission never does or talk anything about that drug, because they can't detect it into the athletes body. Is that cheating: YES
Does anyone official will ever tell Usain Bolt was a cheater for taking that drug ? Sadly NO. Because if they did, they would confess they own incapability to prove the athlet's guilt.0 -
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@Vankruze said:
@powerbats said:
@Vankruze said:
IN MY OPINION IT IS CHEATING, god I hate repeating myself! pay attention or don't address me period!
Ok but you said earlier the devs opinion doesn't matter, so how is your opinion more valuable than theirs? Why is your opinion more valid than their's, why does their's not matter? You want everyone to accept your opinion but not heirs, don't you see how that's going to be an issue?
I never said "their opinion doesn't matter" this is actually what was said:
"A devs opinion on the matter doesn't make it a fact it's just "their opinion" and doesn't mean mine is wrong because it's not the same as theirs. Furthermore it's not just my opinion many killer mains agree it's ridiculous. It renders many killer perks useless and creates an unfair advantage which is cheating by definition. It may not meet the devs model for what is deemed to be cheating but that doesn't change what it is. Does it create an unfair advantage? Absolutely 100% yes. End of discussion."
Here we are again having to go backwards in the discussion because you're not able to stay on point. Nice attempt at putting words in my mouth by the way, next time try absorbing what actually gets said rather than creating your own version to suit your argument!
You've stated in the past their opinion didn't matter, so yes I've stayed on point and other killers agreeing with you means nothing. It's their opinion and using that logic if 100 people agree with me but only 5 agree with you does that make my opinion more valuable?
Now speaking of here we go again you're saying it's 100% absolutely end of discussion. Your opinion doesn't make it fact, whether you're right or not. I do agree it does make an unfair advantage but that doens't mean I'm right either or it's the end of the discussion, it's just my opinion.
@Vankruze said:
Voice coms SWF creates an unfair advantage, the devs opinion about it doesn't change that fact!
That sure looks like their opinion doesn't matter in an abstract sense, again I agree with you that it creates an unfair advantage which is why I've suggested buffs to help killers.
@Vankruze said:
Okay even though I know for a fact SWF creates an unfair advantage? Oh the devs said it wasn't cheating and isn't a problem therefore it's not broken and somehow it no longer creates an unfair advantage? Sorry but a devs opinion on the matter doesn't change facts and their opinion doesn't become fact just because they own the game.
The same issue here but another one as well, the devs have never said it doesn't create an unfair advantage and have in fact acknowledged it does. Which is why they're buffing solo survivors up to swf level so they can then buff killers to be viable against that.
I think they talked about that in one of the last 2 dev streams.
Now if in fact you've never said they;re opinions don't matter then my apologies because i'm pretty sure you said it at least once.
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How do u expect to communicate with your Survivor friends on PC then if there not adding in gamechatMagnumTA said:They should allow talking in this game. So many people use Discord, and other talking apps. That it completely throws game balance off. That it's is the soul reason that some people may complain about killer imbalance. But they may not know, in actuality, it's these talking services that completely unbalances the game. Making killers too weak to compete in a game were talking is not allowed. Make killers strong enough to compete with Discord!!
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@Vankruze I'm not trying to be a dick, just pointing out what I see since what gets said here is oftentimes misconstrued. When I've asked albeit clumsily at times for clarification you and others have usually done so.
Again I agree that swf creates an unfair advantage but it's not going anywhere nor should it sice it brings in more people and thus more money.
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@Rattman said:
Ok, swf is broken, its a fact. But devs still can make reasonable nerfs to it. Like, hide killer perks for everyone till end of the game, when all survivors escaped/killed/sacrificed. And, probably, they can create another non-ranked playmode with swf, while ranked mode would be solo only. Makes sense, right?They absolutely need to hide the killer perks and addons till after the match!
And I love the non-ranked playmode idea, never even thought of thatt1 -
@powerbats said:
Again I agree that swf creates an unfair advantage but it's not going anywhere nor should it sice it brings in more people and thus more money.True. Now the question is how to make the game's better in that regard AND let's not forget, to make sure the game stays true to its style and genre ? Just saying that voice communication afficionados might preffer playing a game where teamspeak was intended from the beginning, like Deathgarden (also from BHRV ?)
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@Vankruze said:
@Nightmare247 said:
@Vankruze said:
IN MY OPINION IT IS CHEATING, god I hate repeating myself!
We can all have an opinion. Someone can argue and debate that Nickelback is the greatest band of all time. It is an opinion. Just like voice comms is cheating. Both Nickelback being the greatest and Voice comms is cheating are both examples of opinions that sane people know is just not true.
So you can keep arguing and debating, but the end all be all is the developers of the game. They are the ones who ban for cheating. No one will get banned, as pointed out earlier, therefore it is not cheating.
Some people just really fail to understand that they are wrong and admit they are wrong. If you would like to admit it Vankruze there is still time.
Does voice coms create an unfair advantage? Yes! by definition that's cheating. I think it's a bit of a stretch to compare that with nickelback as a goat band and calling me insane at the same time lol I love how you can't manage a civil conversation without going personal says a lot about your character, have a nice day!
By definition it must also be breaking the rules. Devs already states it didn’t. Do smarty pants, next time you try to go all definition, don’t forgot AN ENTIRE HALF OF IT!
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@Jack11803 said:
@Vankruze said:
@Nightmare247 said:
@Vankruze said:
IN MY OPINION IT IS CHEATING, god I hate repeating myself!
We can all have an opinion. Someone can argue and debate that Nickelback is the greatest band of all time. It is an opinion. Just like voice comms is cheating. Both Nickelback being the greatest and Voice comms is cheating are both examples of opinions that sane people know is just not true.
So you can keep arguing and debating, but the end all be all is the developers of the game. They are the ones who ban for cheating. No one will get banned, as pointed out earlier, therefore it is not cheating.
Some people just really fail to understand that they are wrong and admit they are wrong. If you would like to admit it Vankruze there is still time.
Does voice coms create an unfair advantage? Yes! by definition that's cheating. I think it's a bit of a stretch to compare that with nickelback as a goat band and calling me insane at the same time lol I love how you can't manage a civil conversation without going personal says a lot about your character, have a nice day!
By definition it must also be breaking the rules. Devs already states it didn’t. Do smarty pants, next time you try to go all definition, don’t forgot AN ENTIRE HALF OF IT!
There is a difference between cheating and not breking the rules, because sometimes rules are not up to date with the newer hacks, or sometimes it is so difficult to enforce said law that the authorities just drop them. I've been writting about it a lot in this page, please feel free to read it and contradict me on the matter. The following is the start of my conversation with @TheBean and @Nightmare247 .
@Utna said:
This is most likely the only reason why voice communications are not officially considered as cheating ; even though the use of such 3rd party program fits right into the dev's cheating definition.This type of thing are just as old as the world: when something is forbidden by a law, but that law can't be enforced anymore, people start doing what was forbidden with impunity and the victims get really angry. The only solution is to legalize what was once forbidden, because when you can't make the crime go away, you just need to sap the victims expectation for justice.
So YES, voice communication is definitelly cheating in any game that doesn't provide that service by itself, BUT since the devs can't do anything about it, they'll probably act as if it was the plan all along.
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To the people in this discussion who think that using 3rd party VoIP software in SWF isn't against the rules and isn't cheating, they're very much mistaken, because it is against their rules, that they haven't been punishing for it is a whole different matter when they know it's happening and they can prove a lot of it currently, they're being hipocritical and inconsequential. Their rules cover this quite well, it doesn't matter how you try to misconstrue to fit your interpretation - the rules are what they are, and they quite clearly state errors in design and undocumented features to gain a competitive advantage. And yes they're being hipocritical about it as they've have taken the moral high ground but impose no consequences or punishment for those that violate their rule.
Did they design the game with voice comms? No!
Did they intend for people to be using 3rd party voice comms? No!
Did they design the game with limited communicative features? Yes
Did they design it for the players to use ingame features? Absolute yes! There are perks in the game like bond, kindred and other aura reading ability perks that help the players play the game without voice comms. Many of those are defeated by 3rd party voice comms.The main reason why they're not banning people who're using 3rd party voice comms, is simply because it would wreck havoc on the playerbase and community not mention it would severely piss people off, furthermore the current growing playerbase is their source of recurring income. It's quite obvious why they don't ban, even when they should considering their rules.
Consider their rules about this:
@Incarnate said:
Exploits: Abusing bugs or errors in design to gain a competitive advantage- Exploit bugs, errors in design, or undocumented features to gain access to what otherwise would not be available or to obtain a competitive advantage
In-game report REQUIRED / Customer Support ticket OPTIONAL
There isn't voice communication in the game by design, and the communicative aspects of the game when in the trial is seriously limited. 3rd party software is used to gain access to what otherwise would no be available to obtain in the game, and it is to gain a competitive advantage!
You still don't think it's bannable offense? By their rules it actually is. Then you can wonder why it is they don't ban people who keep violating the rules, and they can even see many of these on the various discord servers where BHVR actually has their staff in.
Note: The rule part is taken directly from their official rules located here: https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/19450/game-rules-and-report-system#latest
@Utna is right, and I completely agree with:
@Utna said:
@Utna said:
This is most likely the only reason why voice communications are not officially considered as cheating ; even though the use of such 3rd party program fits right into the dev's cheating definition.This type of thing are just as old as the world: when something is forbidden by a law, but that law can't be enforced anymore, people start doing what was forbidden with impunity and the victims get really angry. The only solution is to legalize what was once forbidden, because when you can't make the crime go away, you just need to sap the victims expectation for justice.
So YES, voice communication is definitelly cheating in any game that doesn't provide that service by itself, BUT since the devs can't do anything about it, they'll probably act as if it was the plan all along.
They can't control it and it would hurt their income potential if they did, not mention anger a whole lot of people. But fact remains, but their rules using 3rd party software VoIP to gain an unfair advantage that you cannot other obtain ingame, is cheating. By their rules it is a bannable offense, that they don't ban people is on them and for us to question and criticize.
With that being said, I don't think this discussion about it being cheating or not will change anyone's opinion.
What is needed, is a fix to the issue. Because it does create an unfair advantage, and the devs need to fix that ASAP. How do they do that?0 - Exploit bugs, errors in design, or undocumented features to gain access to what otherwise would not be available or to obtain a competitive advantage
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@Utna said:
And if they did used Discord instead of the game's proximity chat, they would be cheating don't you agree ? Just like you said there would be no point to prohibit the use of a 3rd party voice comm program, since the devs canno't prevent it or punish it in any ways.
It is not cheating in any form or fashion. Let's use some actual examples of cheating. How about a program that adds a God Code into the game and a player can hack the speed in which a survivor/killer moves? Yes, they have changed the foundation and code of the game. How about a program that allows the killer to see through walls, see all totems, see all chests, etc? Yes, this is cheating as it again modifies the code of the game.
Let's use Antivirus programs or Microsoft Office or GPU FPS counters. All of these are 3rd party programs. Many are running at the same time that DBD is running. Are these programs cheating too? No, none of them are. None of them are tampering with the code of the game. So running a program like Discord, Steam Voice, Skype etc in the background even if it is not actively being used for chat is NOT CHEATING. Discord etc are not tampering with the game files in anyway.
If Usain Bolt used a drug to make him faster, but that drug couldn't be detected, Is he cheating : YES
Sure, he is cheating at that point, but you are getting into the theoretical if a tree falls in the woods does it make a noise debate. The thing is the game knows people are using voice software and they are OK with it and will not ban it. So therefore, by the rules of the game, the game makers, IT IS NOT CHEATING.
If the Olympic commission knows he's using the drug but can't prove it. Is he still cheating : YES
Yes, but in the case of BHVR they are not trying to prove it. They know and WILLINGLY allow it. They have a BHVR supported Discord!!!! They support voice communications, they just never built it into the game. So what? It is not cheating if they, the creators, developers, and rulemakers of the game allow it.
Would the game be better if there were no voice comms? Yes, but to call players who use voice communications in a SOCIAL game cheater, that is where the line has to be drawn.
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@Nightmare247 said:
Let's use Antivirus programs or Microsoft Office or GPU FPS counters. All of these are 3rd party programs. Many are running at the same time that DBD is running. Are these programs cheating too? No, none of them are. None of them are tampering with the code of the game. So running a program like Discord, Steam Voice, Skype etc in the background even if it is not actively being used for chat is NOT CHEATING. Discord etc are not tampering with the game files in anyway.You're misconstrueing it to fit your interpretation. Discord and other 3rd party VoIP software doesn't tamper with the game's code, but you can cheat in many ways. Using discord or any other 3rd party VoIP software gives you an unfair advantage that you cannot obtain it the game. It's correct that they don't tamper with any of the game files or the game's code, but the players can affect the game through obtaining information through discord/other 3rd party VoIP software that they otherwise could not. By their rules definition that is cheating. It may be its time for them to update the rules, but until then, it's cheating by it's definition.
@Nightmare247 said:
Yes, but in the case of BHVR they are not trying to prove it. They know and WILLINGLY allow it. They have a BHVR supported Discord!!!! They support voice communications, they just never built it into the game. So what? It is not cheating if they, the creators, developers, and rulemakers of the game allow it.Would the game be better if there were no voice comms? Yes, but to call players who use voice communications in a SOCIAL game cheater, that is where the line has to be drawn.
It's quite far from a social game, it's an online video game, not a social game!
The only reason why they're allowing it and "supporting" it, is because they cannot otherwise control it. The rules by definition still make it cheating, so BHVR are hipocrites and inconsequential, and I can understand why. But doesn't change the fact that voice comms wasn't intended and it complete skews the balance, and the devs seriously need to fix it. Until then they really have no business in supporting voice comms, because they're breaking their own rules, and they're assisting other players in doing so.0 -
@Vankruze said:
@Jack11803 said:
@Vankruze said:
@Nightmare247 said:
@Vankruze said:
IN MY OPINION IT IS CHEATING, god I hate repeating myself!
We can all have an opinion. Someone can argue and debate that Nickelback is the greatest band of all time. It is an opinion. Just like voice comms is cheating. Both Nickelback being the greatest and Voice comms is cheating are both examples of opinions that sane people know is just not true.
So you can keep arguing and debating, but the end all be all is the developers of the game. They are the ones who ban for cheating. No one will get banned, as pointed out earlier, therefore it is not cheating.
Some people just really fail to understand that they are wrong and admit they are wrong. If you would like to admit it Vankruze there is still time.
Does voice coms create an unfair advantage? Yes! by definition that's cheating. I think it's a bit of a stretch to compare that with nickelback as a goat band and calling me insane at the same time lol I love how you can't manage a civil conversation without going personal says a lot about your character, have a nice day!
By definition it must also be breaking the rules. Devs already states it didn’t. Do smarty pants, next time you try to go all definition, don’t forgot AN ENTIRE HALF OF IT!
By definition it's cheating yes "in my view", this does not directly apply to the devs rules at all this is purely my opinion based on my own personal experiences on both sides. The devs opinions on this matter do not shape how I think and feel about it. You're just repeating what others have already said which in turn has me repeating myself so contribute something with substance please instead of being the band wagon echo we have enough of those already.
That’s not how words work.
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@Vankruze said:
@Jack11803 said:
@Vankruze said:
@Jack11803 said:
@Vankruze said:
@Nightmare247 said:
@Vankruze said:
IN MY OPINION IT IS CHEATING, god I hate repeating myself!
We can all have an opinion. Someone can argue and debate that Nickelback is the greatest band of all time. It is an opinion. Just like voice comms is cheating. Both Nickelback being the greatest and Voice comms is cheating are both examples of opinions that sane people know is just not true.
So you can keep arguing and debating, but the end all be all is the developers of the game. They are the ones who ban for cheating. No one will get banned, as pointed out earlier, therefore it is not cheating.
Some people just really fail to understand that they are wrong and admit they are wrong. If you would like to admit it Vankruze there is still time.
Does voice coms create an unfair advantage? Yes! by definition that's cheating. I think it's a bit of a stretch to compare that with nickelback as a goat band and calling me insane at the same time lol I love how you can't manage a civil conversation without going personal says a lot about your character, have a nice day!
By definition it must also be breaking the rules. Devs already states it didn’t. Do smarty pants, next time you try to go all definition, don’t forgot AN ENTIRE HALF OF IT!
By definition it's cheating yes "in my view", this does not directly apply to the devs rules at all this is purely my opinion based on my own personal experiences on both sides. The devs opinions on this matter do not shape how I think and feel about it. You're just repeating what others have already said which in turn has me repeating myself so contribute something with substance please instead of being the band wagon echo we have enough of those already.
That’s not how words work.
When you are given an unfair advantage in gaming or sport that is cheating by definition. This has nothing to do with the devs "made up" rules and how they choose to run their game that's just how "words work". Of course the rules are made up in this situation but that doesn't change "how I view" the situation. Understand now?
The devs have condoned voice chat, especially swing how there’s a first party version for steam, PS4, and Xbox. Its also in the terms of service. Its is unabashedly and objectively not cheating
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I mean I think the issue here is I'm seeing people say the definition of cheating is an unfair advantage. It's actually usually associated with breaking laws or rules, since a game can have rules intentionally designed to be unfair to a party or not.2
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Also the devs make the rules and what they say goes. It's not cheating if they say it's not. Doesn't matter if you personally think it is, you have no power to enforce your bias on the entire community.
So while yes, you can flippantly disregard the game makers decisions, delusional declaring your own opinion as fact over theirs on their own product is just that; delusional.1
