Hexy tournament, pyramid head and spirit.
So I just wanna address the fact that people always wanna compare PH and spirits performance at the tournament to public play.
First PH got stomped because not only does his ability not involve gen regression, but these survivors are some of the best. Otz wrecks with PH almost every game on YouTube and yet he lost against people who are GUARANTEED 4 man and who have perks to win. And also spirit? Really?! Oh look at her she got gen rushed! Dude really? Of course she did, but what did she do majority of the time? WIN!! Nurse and spirit were the winners until one team was just too good.
Second let's adress the play styles, first most of the time survivors werent dumb enough to do the lose lose. Situation and even then to avoid that they always got hit and when they had a safe vault they made the right choices to avoid a hit through walls. As spirit people didnt mind game they never put themselves in a situation where they are in a lose lose and when they did, they lost. The only times the spirit messed up was when they assumed they'd hit a survivor and frankly a normal player under all that pressure would crumble.
All that shows that to make these killers lose you NEED to pressure to the point they are hopeless and have to go for every hit they can regardless of how smart some times. And that you need to be the best of the best.
Due to that same logic you should understand why people dislike these killers. I PERSONALLY dont play with the best people my friends I usually play with aren't as good as me for the most part and then I have a friend @azame who is better and even then we cant beat a good spirit without a team focusing on gens which killers complain.about on the forums. See the predicament? We do what YOU guys TELL us and then you COMPLAIN so you can fix gens and keep your killers unfair.
Not only is this a reflection of defensive mindsets you guys say that these killers are fine because people who play for thousands of hours, coordinated with good perk synergy wreck them or barely beat them in spirits case, you say they are fine for pubs which the servers I play on SUCK! red ranks with urban evasion and self care who let you die or cant do gens. These killers wreck the majority over some dumb mechanics and its ok because a tournament with some of the best players had players who destroyed them.
TLDR(however you put it): its dumb to talk about how justified spirit and PH bad mechanics are over a tournament with some of the best players who finish gens in 3 to 5 minutes when the public matches can't replicate that
Put your opinions below and thanks for reading
FYI tier lists should use the highest capacity for play, balance should not.
Comments
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It proves what we all already know.
At the highest levels of play the only viable killers are nurse and spirit.
Spirit can still lose but is still probably slightly overtuned, but nurse is OP at the highest levels of play (I'm a nurse main. Believe me. I have to try to NOT 4k)
Every other killer is not viable. At the highest levels of play this game is not balanced and it needs to be fixed if the game is to ever retain players.
And don't give me the "but that's so rare" argument. It's not a good one. It doesn't matter how rare it is. It's not less than 1% rare and the fact that it CAN happen shows that the game is unbalanced. Imagine if in chess white had an 80% win rate at the highest levels. Wouldn't be much of a fun game would it?
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Umm I don't see your point? That this whole game needs better balance or only high levels? Like I believe this game needs a major fix and also legion can wreck at red ranks too. You need a good killer player to do well. If we could fix gens I can assure you all the other fun killers would be just as viable as long as you are good with them. I play oni and I wreck for the most part, without my ability im still a decent killer, but some people arent actually good you know? Anyways my point is gens and balancing should be the biggest issue being solved and if it does get solved I could play ghost face again without having no fun because I cant stealth up against wary survivors. Also yeah nurse OP I tried maining her but it makes.me feel like trash when I play her and lose
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I may have missed it, but it seems you ignored the fact that some of the very best Killer players used them as well.Your argument is easily turned around. A good team focusin on gens requires the two or three strongest Killers to stand a chance, yet when they are picked, they are complained about.
The tournament had it´s flaws but it impressively highlighted that in the high skill bracket, Survivors just dominate against everything but Nurse.
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My point is. There are fundamental problem with balance in this game that stems from 2 things.
1) the difference in high skill and low skill players is far too great. Which results in balance that is out of wack. Against survivors that can't loop every killer is OP (when matched against equivalent skilled killers), against survivors that can loop like gods only nurse and spirit are viable.
The problem is that the "balance" of the game changes based on how good the players are. When I first started the game playing with friends I thought killers were OP. My friends and I were lucky to complete 1 or 2 gens a game. And that was when we were matched with killers who also just bought the game.
Now after 1k hours it is apparent to me that the game heavily favors survivors who can play efficiently. Survivors who can slam gens the second they see the killer chase someone else. Survivors who know every totem spawn. Etc.
2) map RNG and in general RNG in this game holds it back. You can play a map and get 7 unsafe pallets and multiple dead zones 1 game. And in the same map the next game there are 14 god pallets with no dead zones.
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Spirit also. And these killers may have been the very best but they were back and forth games. At the end of the day the top 3 teams were picked and their killers all dominated over the other survivors and the tides turned during some rematches and ties. But my whole point is you can't try and say these killers are fine because they didn't stomp the best survivors. You dont even have to be the best killer to stomp a public with them. THATS the heart of the issue.
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I refuse to believe you and your friend (who takes OoO) btw can’t handle the average public match Spirits.
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You make valid points and I agree wholeheartedly that this game favors survivors and its because of gens. If gens were balanced then everyone would have a chance amd if they touch up on rng. Because there are definitely strong loops but a good killer can and will shut them down. My friend Dawson is almost as good if not as good as me and went up against a blight and it happened to be scott jund and he got WRECKED. As he said. Now he KNOWS how to loop which kimda show that looping isnt all that killers make it out to be. Because a good killer can shut down these loops. But not many players get fair matches which sucks.
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I play solo 90 percent of all my time on dbd so like 900 hours. And also its the truth any spirit with a good headset and has a decent perception of sound can wreck us because random are unreliable and spirit can easily take advantage of that. Also his OoO doesn't matter does it? I mean you give the killer a free location all game. I've ran solo OoO and it's not that strong unless you're ignored. If the killer is better than you than all they gotta do is chase you and you get no use. Hell ive never even used object and actually had much advantage from it because I usually don't run as soon as they come after me because I like getting chased. Albeit not everyone does that. I digress, spirit has no tell for her power so without reliable gens from a swf you just won't win and if you do its barely or because she sucked
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Basically, you're crying because spirit and ph have no counter, but then acknowledging that you can beat them with the gen rush.
Fix the gen times and you can have all the nerfs you want. And no, this 1% longer gen times ain't gonna cut it. Oh but survivors dont want that, because it's boring holding m1. They would much prefer the gen times stay the same, but the strong killers get nerfed down to wraith levels, that way they never lose and can get their little power fantasy going.
Stop whining and git gud.
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HA! I am good even if sometimes I have self confidence issues. I know how to gen rush but thats no fun and too easy. Get me a swf all on my level of looping who prioritizes gens and we wont lose very often. But thats not fun not at all nor is it fair. Frankly im not whinig either, I was adressing an illogical point i seen and that I was banned when I seen it. And longer gen times wont happen because 80 seconds is a lot of nothing how would you feel if you as a killer had to camp a hook for a minute? So fun right? Plus they will have a much needed EGC for start of game eventually and when that happens things will be better and plus pyramid head is getting a buff to his ability and nerfing his BS all spirit needs is a clear indicator to her ability and she is fair. Trust me buddy you can make every assumption you like but if you think im just being entitled or wanting easy game you are dead wrong. I will let myself die if a killer gets a bad game and I will kill a teammate who plays toxic for no reason. As a killer ill let someone go if they get sandbagged or screwed over. I'm not an entitle person, the only thing im entitled to is a fun time on dbd. Coincidentally we all paid money on it so all of us are entitled to at least some fun. Anywho next time you hop on the forums at least be a bit civil man, I aint like some of the others around here we can actually have a conversation.
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"FYI tier lists should use the highest capacity for play, balance should not."
The balance is reflection of tier-lists.
The other question regarding this post is, why should killers be balanced(Only be made strong enough) for bad players such that when the team becomes better, you almost immediately instant lose? on 3rd point, you openly admit that you purposely not playing at your best yet complaining that said killer are unfair. The fact of the matter is that teams like Oracle and Agony prove that survivor community needs to git gud at playing survivor in DBD and that devs need stop treating the community like little kids for whenever they throw a tantrum on every little killer/survivor mechanic. Pyramid head changes are intentional being made so that survivor do not need to play well vs pyramid head and pop/thana changes are specifically targeted at Freddy because of the stat-sheet that was presented last year and ever since than, Freddy has been bitched about non-stop until the devs just gave in their latest update. as of recently, the last thing people have bitched about is Undying+Ruin and its only matter of time until this get changed. If survivors think these gameslow perks unfun, wait until every survivor game revolves around 3 gen with instant down, Slugging, proxy hook camping and straight tunneling off the hook(with Nurse/Spirit) or Mori+Noed every game. Most of their survivor games are easily winnable with better looping play against these gen perks among all killers with honestly not that high of skill requirement and survivors could be a lot harder/more stressful than what they currently are. The balance for survivor is intentionally really casual and forgiving.
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The chess argument might actually backfire if it turns out that white has a 100% winrate if played correctly.
So, lets assume it is true. White has 100% winrate if you know how.. would you now play the "humanly possible" card or whould you stay with your argument you use for DbD?
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If anything, tournaments only prove that the game is boring as hell.
Gen rush vs super quick chases... im so excited...
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The thing is the public matches can replicate that , if survivors spread out on gens and nobody does a gen together then they will have the match over in a matter of minutes, this is why you see so many slugging killers in high ranks because that's the only true tactic a killer has to stop the tourney style survivor from gen rushing them to oblivion
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Interesting that you see the problem but not the obvious solution (its not Genspeed by the way).
The perfect map in Dead by Daylight is Coal Tower. Its small, but it has a lot to work with. Its fair for both sides, killer have the pressure, both sides get a lot of chases, and survivor have loops and stuff to hide. Whats so complicated to duplicate that concept? Why do we even need maps like Mothers dwelling which are gigantic and not very exciting to play?
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To be fair, the PH's played badly and even admitted it. They kept going for trick shots and flashy nonsense instead of guaranteed hits.
Plus, the survivors had some serious perk bans. Only 2 of each? Remove that and even Nurse cannot win. Technically, Nurse cannot win without them in the trial in the first place, but that requires a favourable map for the survivors.
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Overthinking dbd in general is bad for your health.
Unless dbd is the only thing you have.
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This. Outside of toolboxes/Prove thyself gen speeds are completely fine.
It's map sizes and linked tiles and survivors that literally spawn on a generator that are the problem.
I've seen Jungle gyms with long wall vaults leading into shack widows where the shack door leads into a long pallet loop with no LOS breaker spawn regularly on Farm/Asylum maps. Then there's breakable walls where outside of a single breakable wall on 1 map, are direct buffs for survivor in every way.
Also agreed. Coal Tower is probably my favorite map for killer.
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I could be completely misunderstanding your post. But it sounds like you are saying that people should quit saying how spirit and pyramid head can be beaten because they were beaten in hexys tournament but this is not how it is in public matches. To which I agree.
But if you're saying that you can't use this tournament as a basis because the survivors were just so good and gen rushed and it's not like that in regular matches are we just going to ignore that the person controlling the killer was also better than just about any killer you're going to face in public matches?
Or are we admitting that when a killer faces a survivor group of equal skill, if that killer is not nurse the killer loses?
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Actually this tournament shows that even Nurse and Spirit are UP. If you go like what are you talking about dont stop reading here and continue to see why:
- Survivors where handicapped they could only use a perk 2 times per team and the items + addons they had vs the addons the killers were allowed to use were much weaker.
- Because they played the strange point system the survivors didnt just try to get max escapes so the kill rates are screwed because some kills only happened because they had to stay in and try to get the points instead of just leaving.
- A LOT of kills only happened cause of NOED which is pretty sad. (i know you can counter it but they didnt most of the time)
- On average a strong killer like nurse/spirit vs a good survivor team will have a 4k much more often then a survivors will have 4 escapes. If nurse faces good survivors cause you can just camp (which a lot of killers did in the tournament) to always get at least 1 kill. So on average those killers will have more then 50% kill rate. That dosent mean much though. The game has a very strange scoring system both in game and in the tournament. Anything below a 3k should be considered a loss. Despite all that Nurse just barely had a kill rate of over 50% on average.(52.8% i think)
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Isn't that how PH is supposed to be played though? I keep saying that if a PH doesn't use the guaranteed hits, then people just say they're bad at PH. Yet, ppl want to nerf PH's guaranteed hits without giving him the oomph he needs to stay relevant.
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I don't have any care for survivors who disagree with those perks. They are fine. But my point hasnt been refuted as far as I've seen you say. Those teams dont mean survs need to get good and that's a faulty mindset. Not everyone can get that good or find teams and if they were to do that the killer base would wanna die. Tier lists involve the highest play and balance involves the entire game. Balancing around the highest play makrs things unfair the lower and vice versa. So by using top players performance is not a justification for people who don't gen rush and want to have fun. So im not really sure what you are trying to say
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No public match can replicate this. Unless it involves a swf. But at that point the match id most likely over as soon as a swf focuses on gens. Most killers aren't that good and vice versa. So yet again gens are just trash and the game needs balancing
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Even otz went for shots that lets be honest rarely work. Unless you see through the wall you usually wont hit survivors who know to run back and forth to make sure not to fall into your prediction shot. I'm rarely hit through a wall by a ph without im all ears
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Hey... Dbd is love dbd is life. Shrek can't compete
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No gens speeds aren't. As long as 3 people can work on one gen and get it halfway by 1 hook that days something
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Its well known that survivors have the advantage so that point isnt as important. And if we have to use that point to compare to lower skills then we have a can of worms to open. Like how lower skilled games wont even come close to turning out this way, low rank survivors lose to killers because at low ranks killer is the power role. At red ranks most survivors are trash and the killers have easy kills so their only pressure is gens which people dont do much of due to constant dying. So with all these THATS why they stomp pubs but fail at highest play. Publics are played by random and mixes so the only fair way to justify the killers is by using certain scenarios to make it fair to the people who arent the best and who aren't in swf. You see what im getting at? Yeah they were the best killers and survivors but publics cant replicate that which is why these killers have issues people complain about.
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every killer is underpower and its because gen speeds and survivors items are equivalent of anti loop powers at the highest rarity thats why its banned. But yeah the scoring was weird but it was the best they could really do without game mechanics being abused
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Tournaments impose artificial constraints on the game. Perks, maps, items, hell, even playstyles are often restricted. Win conditions also vary. A tournament where getting BPs is your win condition is going to play out very differently than a tournament where getting kills is your win condition, for example.
Because of this you pretty much can't draw meaningful conclusions about overall game balance from tournament play.
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Yeah there is that but without restraints pyramid head would still lose to a coordinated team who can take advantage of gen speed and hell if ds wasnt bugged the matches would have been way different too. My point is you cant talk about how a killers is totally fine when it takes gen rushing to best them and the highest level play
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there was a tournament? didn't even know... gotta check that later...
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You can't really comment either way based on a tournament. People love to complain about how survivors are OP on the forum, but I have seen no good evidence for this. Kill rates as of the last stats drop were ~65% overall and ~70% at red ranks. This is in a world with an EGC where the last survivor has a chance to get hatch.
The responses I typically get to this are "but those numbers include hook suicides so they're invalid!" and "those numbers are almost a year old so they're invalid!" To that I'd say, if you don't think these numbers are meaningful, I'd love to see your more convincing evidence for why survivor is OP.
I personally think the game is in a better state balance-wise than it ever has been. Killers like Pyramid Head should not be regularly losing (which I'd call a 0k or a 1k) to teams of a similar skill level even if those survivors are on comms. You can't communicate your way out of a relatively quick down against a killer than can zone, and that means the PH can build pressure.
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I agree the tournamrnt cant reflect a general example of gameplay or the majority of players and the game is way better than before and people refuse to see
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If 3 survivors are on 1 gen thats 2 other gens not being worked on. they get diminishing returns for 3 players. Optimal survivors would never work on the same gen unless its the last one they need.
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The tournament showed gens done super quickly and many of the killers tunneling to win (Because of how the tournament rules worked)
I didn't watch it live and found it because I like to watch Otz, but honestly the tournament was laughable and it wasn't very entertaining gameplay wise, plus the horrible spectator camera didn't help.
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To be fair, the tournament only showed the game played under those tournament rules. Does anyone remember a point compilation and the end of the match based on hooks, kills, gens completed, etc?
Also, it was primarily survivor mains vs survivor mains. Some were skilled killers, for sure. But most killer builds were really weak. Even for someone like Otz when he used PH, he used his cage too soon and without purpose. Very very few killers actually ran builds at stopping gen progression. It was hit, tunnel, hit, hook, tunnel, hit, eat DS, tunnel, hit, proxy camp lose gens, rinse and repeat.
that’s not to say every killer is on the same level as nurse and spirit, but I can think of a few killers who weren’t showcased who’d do a lot better with a lot worse
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Crap I meant if they spread out but yeah no stacking is the best thing for killer to face
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Yeah not to mention it just shows how bad gen speed are and that against player you have to play scummy. Its boring and I only watched for otz
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I mean otz played plague with a nasty build and won and tried again but jt didn't pan out. He won with PH one match and lost another I believe and he also won with Wraith I think. I mean it's was arguably the best killer there.
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I'm also a big chess fan and can say that it's pretty likely that chess is a balanced game. We have super computers and AIs that have trained on billions of games and when they play each other it is almost always a draw.
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I don't know if you watched that PH match but those survivors were downright terrible. They weren't even looking behind them in a chase. Same with the Wraith team. The second he tried to play a non meta killer against a good team he got decimated (no disrespect to Otz as he's one of the best non-nurse players out there). I do respect that he actually tried to stray from the meta though. I knew he was probably doomed but it was nice to see him try something other than Spirit/Nurse.
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If you think that it's ok to finish a gen in 25 seconds then there is no conversation to be had.
Sounds more like you are complaining about the ranking system than anything. A Rank 1 shouldn't complain about the things other survivors do and those be the exact same things a Rank 10 can complain about. You shouldn't be able to rank up by doing 1 gen 1 rescue 1 heal. Do those 3 every game and you are basically guaranteed a pip. Also maybe you just aren't as good as you think you are. A lot of tooting your own horn usually means it's a bunch of BS coming out.
There are 21 killers and only 2 are competitive at the top and of the 2 nurse takes a lot of practice. I've only used her 4 times and I have sucked all the suck 3 of those 4 times.
Unless you have all the meta perks unlocked on a killer or at least the next best in their place then you aren't able to beat a swf group with their best perks regardless of which killer you use provided the swf is of equal skill.
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Yeah I didnt see the Wraith but I seen PH and some teams were bad but otz also makes good teand look bad as well if we are being honest. Its probably would have won if his team was better but they played rumbly against finger guns, albeit he is a REALLY good billy
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I didnt even read that because you said I think gens are fine. Read all my responses and quit making assumptions. Id like to have a nice civil talk with no assumptions
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I meant the gens being fine towards anyone not specifically you. The rest of the post is geared towards you as well as some other general thoughts.
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No gens are abysmal. My only point was people said oh look pyramid head isn't that bad all because of a tournament where gens got finished in 2 to 4 minutes and same with spirit. This post is supposed to point out how this tournament isn't a good indicator about whether the killers are too strong or not
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Okay so people using tournaments as a justification for nerfing survivor, what do you actually want? Every time I see this topic there is never anything actually constructive.
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I'm so bored of all these people calling for balance or nerf this killer buff that killer.
Like any game with classes some classes are more viable than others in certain situations and on different kill levels.
The only way you'll get 'balance' is if every killer is identicle and a copy paste of the next. That is boring.
You either get good as a killer or find a killer you're good at. Don't expect the world to revolve around you and your wishes.
Everyone one knows nurse and spirit are strong killers but that doesn't mean every killer should behave like nurse or spirit.
Theres an English Proverb: 'Variety is the spice of life' and that goes for dbd killers too.
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Not to mention, unless you burn a map offering, that's more RNG. You could get a map like ormond, or you could get lery's against mirror myers.
Even with this in play I can get 4ks on any map, though it's much more common on other maps. The RNG is definitely broken and the only way I see the devs fixing this is if they put the same map layout for each map, and make all maps basically the same. Problem with this is though, this creates no variation, and that makes the game boring, no one wants to play, and that's the reason this game has been popular for over 4 years
Although I recently started playing, so take this with a massive grain of salt. I wouldn't say I'm bad but I definitely wouldn't even get a kill in this tournament.
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Oh no I dont know if my point didn't get across to you but its just to say that these specific reasons people brought up aren't very good defenses. And as for survivor nerf I think the biggest one they can do is nerf gens it do your early game start mechanic. Which I one hundred percent advocate for. The tournament showes how strong survivors are and how BS gens are and I think its a good showcase but as to how PH and spirit abilities work I frankly don't think this tournament should even be part of the argument because rushing gens is boring and its tilting for killers. Do you get what im saying? Also I never WANTED anything out of this topic, its mainly to adress some faulty reasoning I seen. Also I love your videos Scott you look at things logically which is a thing I luke about you.
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