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How would you compensate killers if SWF ≈ Solo ?
So we all know that the gap between solo and SWF is incredibly big right now.
And that one of the most important issues right now is to close that gap between those 2 in order to balance this game better.
Now let's asssume the devs somehow found a way to bring solo very closely to the level of SWF.
How would you realistically buff killers to balance that out?
Comments
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I think they'd be better off with a ranked/unranked queue to fix the SWF problem.
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That would split the player base though and i don't think DBD could afford to do that.
And i think it would create even more problems then it could solve
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The gap isn't that big. The skill gap is big.
You can't buff killers based on how bad solo queue survivors are doing while blaming it on them not having comms. Because they do just as bad in a swf team.
This is something that this community never likes to bring up. It's always "Let's fix the SWF problem"... which is exactly what? The comms? Cuz I can play the same way with or without comms. What I can't play with is teammates who don't know how to play. There is a big difference.
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- Buff blindness, because SWF makes it invalid.
- A secondary objective (not totems) for better gen speeds.
- Exhaustion causes louder breathing.
- Weaker killers buffed to Freddy/blights level.
That's about it, this would help balance out the game a lot more in my opinion.
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The playerbase has increased substantially in general and with cross play.
I think it is a contentious solution but I don't think the other options would work.
I can't see the devs ever buffing killers to the extent they would need to in order to compensate for such a substantial buff to solo players.
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The biggest gap between solo and SWF is information,which is why you simply can't play the exact same way you could when playing in a SWF.
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As I stated before, this is simply untrue information.
You can be a reliable teammate with great coordination without comms. This has been proven time after time. Communication does not give you the skill needed to successfully win a match. You can have all the information in the world but if you can't loop a killer, are not good with timing (saving, when not to pick up a dying state survivor, recognize the killer is camping so therefore make yourself useful etc.) You will most likely fail if not cost your team time which they do not have.
This isn't as black and white as many claim it is, is what I am saying.
For too long solo queue survivors have been used as "They are just not as good because of comms" excuse in order to excuse these uneeded "buffs" for killers.
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Which is why i'm interested how the community would try to solve that.
Maybe somebody has a great idea,who knows?
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Really? Comms give you...
- Map wide bond.
- If one person has OoO they can call out the killers location.
- Immunity to blindness.
- Invalidates trappers whole existence.
- And so much more.
The only thing solo needs is a functioning MMR system, so good players can play with good players, and a totem counter.
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5% move speed buff across the board or fix the damned maps.
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Of course,i've never said that you couldn't do good in solo queue.
I also know that information doesn't equal easy wins.It's obvious that you need a certain amount of skill to capitalize on that information.
What you can't deny is that more information will make games much more consistent.
For example,just knowing when somebody is on a gen or in a chase and planning accordingly can make a big impact.
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And yet again... none of those things validate the existance of uneeded buffs for killers.
You can have all those things and still be a bad player. They wouldn't equate to a "buff" for solo survivors.
Wanna know what an actual buff looks like in solo queue? Kick the solo survivor out of the match and put a bot to hold M1 for you as you loop the killer. Too many times you are found carrying the team in solo queue.
On #4 Yikes. Really? I just had two matches as Trapper and got a 3k and a 4k in the other (in red ranks). So again, you can't generalize and assume that because solo queue survivors don't have comms they are bad players. They are bad players because they don't know how to play the game. Period.
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Well,further balancing maps is an ongoing thing already.
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I would make the exhausions effect stronger but in return also make them slower for a while since they are ,,exhausted"
Maybe also make staying injured more riskfully and give make them slower while exhausted, but in return make healing much easier and faster.
(no mither would negate that speed effect and also some other nef effects)
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Core design problems should have a lot more manpower. Shouldnt take years to get the maps fixed, try 6 months max.
So yeah, if solo got a massive buff, the maps would need fixing at the same time, or just do the 5% move speed buff to compensate.
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And just the same I acknowledge that there is an advantage to being in a swf. What I said was that it wasn't as big as some would like to think.
Why would the devs give indirect universal buffs to killers which are already in a good spot? At that point you are not giving them a buff you are overtuning them.
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Yeah, it does validate the existence of buffs for killers, because it is a ridiculous amount of free information, that solos don't have. Also, might I ask you if you were going against SWF as trapper? If so, how many survivors were trapped, also I'd like video evidence, because that sounds cap.
You don't need to be a good player to share free information across the team. I never said that solo survivor are bad players because they don't have comms, this is a strawman.
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First off, you are replying to a reply I made to someone else. Something which I have seen you do time after time.
I responded with comms DO NOT give you skills needed to win the match. Then you go ahead and list those things as if I am not somehow aware that they exist. Which just goes to show you miss my initial point.
And also where did I say that you said solo queue survivors are bad because they do not have comms? I know you didn't say it. I am letting you know my perspective/stance after over 4000 hours in this game on both killer and survivor.
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I would start heavily buffing all M1 killers by making them less dependant on survivors making mistakes in chases.
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As far as I'm concerned, you quoted and mentioned me, so you did reply to me, and I just replied to you.
"So again, you can't generalize and assume that because solo queue survivors don't have comms they are bad players." That's what you literally told me, I never said that, ever, so you did say that I said solo queue survivors are bad because they don't have comms.
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Because that was in connection with the message I responded to, in which you intervened. I never meant YOU yourself can't generalize. I meant that comment as in general no one should generalize and assume.
I replied to you because your response acted as an extension the person's comment I responded to. Which was this:
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Hmm,i can see your point.
I suppose we would have to wait for more perk,map and killer changes,MMR,the early game changes and the buff for solo survivors first and then see if there's a need to buff killer.
But i guess it could still be interesting to see what we could do IF there will be a need to buff killers after all those changes
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The closest we can get to closing the swf gap is by
- Display survivor perks and items to other survivors in lobby
- Add a ingame message system ( " focus generators" ) ( my example can be used as "killer in chase, im being camped, or " just genrush idiots). " I need healing" might be useful too.
- Optionally add voicechat ingame.
I think any aura reading or UI changes wouldnt really be gap closers as they buff the people using comms too.
Now taking the above as basis, I'd say the killer compensation should be base mechanics, not Killer abilities. Ive been thinking about making survivor mistakes more costly for survivors, among other tweaks.
An example would be to punish survivors more for getting hit mid action. Survivors could flinch when getting hit while repairing, healing etc, taking away some of their hit sprint ( you cant use the full hit sprint because you're rooted in place by the flinch animation). Same with vaults, you get hit in "midair",you fall to the floor and have to get up before sprinting away. This could have fancy new animations too.
Making being injured harder on survivors could work too, harder skillchecks etc might work, although i doubt less movement or vault speed would be viable choices. ( Movement speed afterall is one of the strongest changes there is)
Making the obsession state hasve automatic detrimental effects on survivors. This might come off as offtopic, but DS' description treats it as a detrimental consequence of using DS, while its not really a negative effect. I suggest minus X seconds needed for bloodlust accumulation among other things. Its kinda bad I always pick skillcheck stuff for negative side effects.
Theres also things as gen tapping removal or simply adding a delay to the door switches ( those kinda levers need to be pulled down first, then the effect comes)
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Probably the best thing to do in that case would be to buff all of the lower tier killers like clown, legion and pig so they are more competent against swfs because atm strong killers are fine against them and usually have much smaller problems, it's the weaker ones that suffer.
Maybe a secondary objective should be added but something relatively small and doesn't require large amounts of m1 holding, something you have to do too much already.
Also i think waiting for stats after this would be wise as well, currently we really don't know how the average swf team peforms, sometimes you can even mistake a swf for solo, so it would be interesting to see exactly how much more elevated they are.
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Not that much needs to be done. The biggest issue is maps and hold-W, so increasing the effects of bloodlust would probably be the cheap way out. More preferably, the killer would have more ways to get information, like basekit Whispers, to find hiding survivors. The sounds should get reverted so that killers can actually hear people in a chase (that was easily the dumbest change I have ever seen the Devs try to justify). And perhaps kicking a gen should have an increased effect: perhaps doubled regression and 5 seconds of no-progress repairing before it can actually be repaired.
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The gap is downright massive, plays that would typically not be possible without certain person such as bond not only are possible with a swf group, but they can save that perk slot as they no longer need information perks.
Not only that the enemy team in a SWF is majorly coordinated (if they are decent) therefore as long as one is decent to loop the killer for a minute then likely 3 gens will literally be done.
Top that with the synergy of their perks, items let allow you to insta-win x4 times in a row in one game (keys), Object of obsession, ect it gets to the point where if the SWF wants to they can choose how strong they are going to be.
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Erm you are like talking about a gameplay overhaul, it sounds interesting but doesn't really have anything to do with the topic.
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Just bonus BP and maybe more generous Pip protection (if people actually care about that)... since it's much easier to have a bad game vs. SWF. I think that'd be swell.
Alternatively, just let me know I'm playing vs. a SWF. That way, I'll stop playing a meme build and/or slot powerful addons. Also, if the lobby looks extra scummy, I can step aside for a stronger killer that will give them a better match.
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solo doesn't need to be brought up to SWF, SWF needs to be brought down to solo. A coordinated team of solo players will still dumpster on even a strong killer player playing one of the strongest killers. SWF just gives you a ton of perks for free, and allows you to coordinate perks and addons with your team mate(s) to increase efficiency beyond what you are capable of solo.
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- Nerf map sizes
- Buff lower tier killers
- See how those things affect balance and then go from there with more buffs/nerfs to perks, items, add ons, killer powers, etc. as necessary.
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With killrates I know as high as they are, killers need a lot of nerfs instead of buffs.
Balancing around a top SWF will bury the game. At this point, I have no idea how and why casual survivors even play. They don't even realize their disadvantages. Ignorance is sometimes bliss.
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I'd like to address your fallacious argument.
Firstly, this is just a fact that SWF are unbalanced. There are a multitude of reasons for this however information IS the reason. It (being information) allows for you to choose the perks of everyone before the match starts, items, addons, map offerings (This likely is going to be changed from what I hear, also I state that only SWF have this choice as even if a killer brings an offering if two or more survivors bring one it makes it unlikely to be the killers offering), ect.
Meaning a swf in general, even a bad one as long as they are somewhat competent can lay the ground rules for everything other then what the killer will be doing in the match (and ofc random loop formations, and general rng) and this is just the start of a SWF's power before the game has even started purely based solely on information. The fact that all this is true / can be true is troubling.
I like how you state "if you can't loop a killer, are not good with timing" ect, because this is irrelevant to the conversation. The point is, that SWF have an inherit advantage due to information and ability to coordinate from a level that is unparalleled to solo survivors.
if we were to look at the two; a fair argument would be that you could being in info perks such Bond, therefore in this situation a solo surv would have great information and can make and foresee plays that otherwise could not of been done otherwise. I have a counterargument however, because as I already demonstrated, the ground rules for a SWF are set from the start, and they already naturally have coms. For this reason Bond would be a perk waste as long as the survs are decent, as they could just use coms instead, not only could they save a perk slot however coms would disable any other limits (Such as Bond's X radius to see survs) and be able to give universal callouts to everyone all at once.
Yes you are acknowledging that there is an advantage however you all the same are downplaying it the same way you think person(s) are unplaying it.
Im unsure of the buffs to killers universally I don't know how that would fair, although one thing they could do is give an extra X or XX seconds to gen time when you are vsing SWF. It would be subtle and even only an extra 7 - 10 seconds would be nice.
Lastly, I would assume someone with 4000hrs in this game would know of the other ways a SWF is unbalanced other then what I have already listed so I decided to keep this as short and not go on about the other reasons for a time save. Although I have been playing this game since late 2018, I have much more then 4000 hours in total I am sure as I avidly played the duration.
I only stated this last bit to prove how irrelevant as a point this is to bring up, as it doesn't matter to the argument how long you have been playing and more so it is a appeal to authority which is a fallacy.
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The discussion isn’t about how SWF is unbalanced. It is about the “gap” between solo vs SWF survivors.
Please show a video where someone who can’t loop a killer magically got better at looping once they were in a SWF group. Please do.
I did point out the skill of the player because that is important when we are having a conversation about a gap between both types.
As for the rest, I’ve already rested my case. So I’ll simply keep it at refer to previous comments. I am not going to repeat myself.
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Again this is why your argument is fallacious.
It is that there inherently is a "gap" or whatever word you would like to use that's its equivalent.
A "Gap" in the context used is obviously inherently as a disadvantage as well.
This is whats known as a strawman this second part, as your statement implies that my argument was that bad survivors who can't loop got better at the game solely due to them being in a SWF when that is no what I said at all.
Sure its important ONLY when we are talking about skill, and not inherently unfair advantaged based on the function of the party system being able to be abused to give this unfair advantage. Sadly we only talking about the second part, so what you are trying to prove is irrelevant as it doesn't have anything to do with the conversation.
Well of course you stated your case silly, I mean sure you say its not to repeat yourself but very clearly anyone who saw my reply to you would realized I quoted you on three different equations and in all three made valid counter points. Silly, you aren't fooling anyone by implying I am just stating what others say and that's the reason that you won't reply to my previous arguments. Its very clear as of now especially then before that if you don't strawman me then you have no way to actually give a counter explanation because in reality you don't have one.
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Not what you said at all?
Dude. Read what you imply here:
The fact that you think it is irrelevant to the conversation when the very topic of this thread is about the state in which solo queue survivors find themselves in, because of this "gap" since they do not possess the information that swf do makes it important and relevant.
Skill is important because you are referring to a player's ability/inability play the game. If you have a bunch of players who do not understand how the game works and want to use that as your excuse to buff killers simply because swf gives you some advantage. Then it is important to discuss.
Strawman?
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I wouldn't. I think that is a backwards way of addressing the situation, and far more costly too. I would simply split Solo and Team Ques apart. The game could continue as balanced for Solo, fixing some recent Perks that got put in PRECISELY to deal with SWF Gen-Rush. Then I would balance the Team Que by requiring them one extra Generator to power the gates and unlock a 5th Perk for the Killers taking them on in that Que. To me, at least, it makes more sense to disrupt things the least. Attempting to increase Solos to match SWF will NEVER work, and in turn just means you have to try and balance the ENTIRE game all over to then up Killers.
My way deals with things in a clean, simple way without reinventing the wheel. It also opens up lucrative new monetary streams for the company, i.e. Team Cosmetics. I know me and mine want some jackets to wear in matches that say "Unhookers" on the back.
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Firstly, strawman is a word that I am using correctly. Well more specifically a idea. Either or "misrepresenting someone's argument to make it easier to attack." is the simple meaning of a strawman. hence why I am calling you as such.
Also nope, its very simple really. OP simply asked if there is a way to make SWF vs Solo more balanced if SWF was universal. This is because as stated before and for the reasons gave before SWF is already unbalanced and then asked what buffs should be added if this was the case.
The reason we don't go off of skill for a issue that is outside of skill is very obvious. If you say skill for your argument you can say skill against it as well. IE if you said "SWF is not unbalanced because the survivors still have to be good", then by that same logic I can say "Yhea, well it is super unbalanced because amazing survivors can abuse it to all hell and back". It results in a circle, where we could just repeat that without coming to a resolution and to that degree conversation is futile.
In general it is important to discuss any issue correlating to balance in general, however as said previously for this exact reason is why I took the stance generally SWF is advantageous to a unfair degree for all the reason said prior.
For this all we need look at the average player as they are most common, rather then the best or worst players.
Again, it is not an argument of survivors having X skill therefore they can or can not SWF, its more the question of is SWF advantageous in an unfair way so much so that buffs should be added for killer. (Although I already don't agree killer should be buffed in this case as stated previously, and think gen time should simply be increased by 7 to 10 seconds in a SWF although targeting 3 - 4 SWF's.)
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What and when was that sound change again? Wasn't it in darkness among us? I forgot, lol.
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It was right before Oni.
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Well, its probably a difference how we see the game. I think its pretty much on topic. Survivors get a tool to relay info, but get punished more for messing up. You're right that its gameplay overhauls, but isnt that what the compensation is about? Survivors get a new basic mechanic to relay information ( not get spoonfed by the game, big difference), so the compensation should be something thst affects all trials, regfardless of killer or perks chosen.
While my examples or ideas might be unsuited in a different perspective, they're basic mechanics that asffect all survivors. Theyre just ideas after all, we could also make injured survivors worrse at repairing generastors or stuff. But i felt that just debuffing speeds" instead of punishing risky/stupid plays would be too hard on bad survivors "who just talk about their friends and cute boys". Afterall there sre still solo playser who would get hit by the vcompensation too. Adding delays to actions ( generastors/ doors / chest) to only add progress after the initiation animation is done, will affect gameplay too, but will fix gen/door tapping in the process too.
The killer abilities are more relevant to the killer-killer-balance or the " killer tier gap". In my opinion it's off topic as survivors shouldnt really care how much we buff the weaker killers as long the top stays the same. Let's say we buff all C-F rank killeras till theyre about as strong as Hillbilly, how did that effect the balance between survivors and nurse/spirit? While closing the gap between killer tiers is important too, even if rarely discussed as such, its irrelevant to this topic.
TLDR: the solo swf killer compensation is a gameplay overhaul, why would gameplay ovehauls be off topic? As long as survivor gets harder in exchange for those information relay tools.
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Given that DCs alone can crate a 75% Kill Rate(Not counting the DC directly as a kill but their 3 doomed teammates) with equal ratios...
4 survivor DC doom 12 teammates
1 killer DC gives 4 survivors escapes
To say that the Kill Rate is hyper inflated is a massive understatement.
Edit: Lets also not forget those numbers most likely include free weekends of the game where people demoed it so theres a large % of those numbers are from people who most likely played 3 games of survivor got slaughtered and dropped it.
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Here's what I would do;
- There's now a lobby indicator for SWFs that shows who are playing with who.
- Killers and solo survivors get bonus BP post-game depending on the amount of SWFs in the lobby.
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- Killer get 25% bonus BP if there's 2-man SWF and 2 solos in the lobby. The solos get 50% each.
- Killer get 50% bonus BP if there's 2 2-man SWFs in the lobby.
- Killer get 75% bonus BP if there's 3-man SWF and 1 solo in the lobby. The solo get 100%.
- Killer get 100% bonus BP if there's a 4-man SWF in the lobby.
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Yes, there will be some dodging in the beginning from killers AND solos. But, I think it'll stop pretty fast because people wanna play games.. not queuing up for lobbies.
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Give👏A👏Mandatory👏Secondary👏Objective👏More👏Engaging👏Than👏Holding👏M1👏
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I would balance with these changes.
FOR SOLOS:
Internal program for comms.For those who will complain of:
1-People putting music.
2-Doing absurb comments.
3-Disturbing you.
Solution:Mute button.
For those who complain of sandbagging:
Solution:No bodyblock between survivors.
A survivor suicide on hook
Solutions:
1-Add bots.
Or...
2-No penalty on pipping +20% boost on bp earning during the game.
Moris
Mori are only available when you hook 4 diferent survivors.
FOR KILLERS.
Survivor DC count as all the hooks.
Hatch never opens if someone DC. In that case there will be 3 chest randomly selected in the map that will contain a key only for last surv (doesnt matter if its open or not if chest is open you will be able to get the key directly if not you gotta open it ) After key is grabbed hatch spawn.
If killer close the hatch. ECG start with 1min for open gates.
If you find hatch you escape.
Keys are only able to make one survivor escape.
Broken keys now appear in the screen as a broken key (not a full one).
Once the hatch is open and closed generator remaint will be equal to the number of survs -1. NO LONGER START ECG.
ECG ONLY STARTS WHEN GATES ARE OPEN. 2 MINS TO LEAVE GAME. (4 MINS DOESNT PRESSURE SURVIVORS.) If someone get hooked go slightly slower.
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Egc is already 2 minutes, it slows to 4 if at least one person is always downed/hooked, which is very unlikely
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Depents a bit on how they even it out.
If solo's get more information then i would be all for giving killers a huge QoL buffs.
More FOV is the first thing that comes to mind. Ability to set how much the aim assist helps you. Preventing the loss of collision at some places so survivors can't "tech" you by litterally walking through you. More keybind options so you can avoid situations that you open a locker instead of picking up a survivor in front of it.
Some small QoL things like that would go a long way
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1) Reenable the protections killers had against SWF smurfcomps.
2) Survivors queuing together will have an increased matchmaking rating, proportional to the number of players in that group.
3) Killers receive a 15% BP bonus for every player grouped together.
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Well I suppose, now that I think about you are right.
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So we all know that the gap between solo and SWF is incredibly big right now.
How do we all know this?
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I mean information wise.
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