Deathslinger Balance
After posting a discussion about ehy people hate Deathslinger I got many similar answer.
Answers:
-He has instant ADS that allows you get shots with almost no counterplay if your good.
-A good deathslinger will hit you then reel you back in to down you.
-He has no map pressure.
Now let's see if I can fix these.
Fixes:
To fix the first issue.
-Entering ADS takes .75 seconds and a non-directional noise is played.
This creates a noise that tells the survivor its time to dodge the gun the .75 is meant to help them vault the window or pallet before they get shoot or allow them to dodge.
To fix the second issue.
-Once hit The Redeemer enters a bloody state, which increases the time to enter ADS by .25 seconds.
I hope this fixes the problem that the distance you get out of your boost won't matter.
To fix the third issue.
- Increase his movement speed to 115%.
-After each hit generators he has damaged will explode if someone is on them.
The first buff just helps him get around. The second one is meant to reward him for kicking generators and hitting survivors. Which I think is highly skilled based to both sides. He must kick a gen and hit someone, and it can be avoided if you don't work on the generator.
Comments
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I'm sorry if this is terrible or breaks him. I tried to give counterplay to survivors while still making him powerful. Thanks for reading!
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I'm fine with any deathslinger nerf as long as he gets turned into 115%
Great ideas
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Slinger is fine, he doesn't even do that well vs good teams.
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I felt that he should be 115% to just make him faster and better at map pressure. Also this isn't a deathslinger nerf, it is meant to add more counterplay whilst simultaneously making him stronger. Also thanks for the compliment I made them based on the fact that he tinkers, so he can affect gens if he touches them with those mechanical hands.
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Thats not what this is for, this is to adress his lack of counterplay adding it and making him stronger with counterplay to counter... A lot off counters.
This is to make him stronger whill adding counterplay.
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First off, I don't think any kind of big changes (like these) for slinger are needed. Main things that need to be addressed about him are his M2 zoning spam and terror radious nerfs compensated by some other number buffs. Other then that, he's fine.
Second, this isn't bad idea for a small rework and it's really hard to say how it would turn out without testing it on PTB for example. I don't hate it but also don't particularly like it either. The ADS delay might just get compensated by 115% mms making both changes pointless but as I said hard to tell without playing with it.
Overall if it made people feel better about beiing beaten by slinger with added sound notification + bigger ads while making him 115%, it would be one of the reworks I'd consider acceptable at least on paper. Can't really form strong opinion without testing it really.
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I'll add a delay before you can hit when leaving ADS to compensate? Would that work?
Edit: You could try to imagine basis scenaries eith these changes and see howit works out.
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Deathslinger is balanced.
His entire balance is build around him being an absolute monster in chases, therefore sucking at everything else.
take away / reduce his effectiveness in chases and you got yourself a Clown 2.0.
Clown and Deathslinger are very similar in a way - both of their powers only affect the chase, no map pressure, no game slow down and no trackng whatsoever. pure chase abilities.
Thats why they need to be that oppressive in it, because thats the only thing they can actually do. if we nerf Slinger because he is "too oppressive" in chases, make him "more fun to play against", we got ourselves the next worst killer in the game.
Slinger currently only has two options:
1) he stays the way he is (or only gets small and insignificant changes)
2) he gets a rework
his power literally does not allow for anything else without him being absolutely guttet in the process.
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If it's not broken don't fix it.
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That idea for gens exploding when u hit survivors is a cool perk idea
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Sadly it seems people want to balance him so he's even in 1v1s all while ignoring the fact that this is a 4v1 game. I play another asymmetrical game that tries to balance the game as if it's a 1v1 and coming from that I'll tell you it doesn't work. So I ask people to remember that killers are supposed to have the upper hand in 1v1 situations. All I'll say at this point is if people want to make him feel more "fair" in 1v1s then give him something to help with the 4v1 aspect. Right now he's only good in chase. So if you want to weaken the only thing he's good at then at the very least give him something for pressure or mobility so he can better handle the 4v1 aspect of this game.
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i think death slinger is fine personally
he is a strong 1v1 killer and its hard to tell if he is close because of his small TR but thats it, he can't snowball, he can't stall, he can't apply map pressure, and is slower than a standard 110% killer because he has to reload so missing is punishing.
people don't like the mindset of this being a team game you are not supposed to do good against a heavy 1v1 killer in a chase so you need to count on your team to be doing gens and spacing them apart so he loses due to his horrible map pressure.
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Thanks! I tried to make it include his mechanical prowess. He messes with the gen in a way other killers do not and when he hits a survivor that tinkering affcets the gen. He uses his skills in engineering to better himself in a match.
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While not necessarily broken this game is meant to be fun. Legion is not strong but he is annoying and dampens your fun. Deathslinger still needs something to weaken his dampening affect on fun. So I weakened his chase and improved hsi map pressure and generator stall time.
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I think this would make him the most annoying killer in the game to play as.
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Im a bit sleepy so forgive me but the reason I did this is because many complained that it wasn't fun to go against him. So I weakend his chase adding as some counterplay while adding in some map pressure and gen regression.
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Sorry! But please explain why!
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His balance is fine. He's just not the most fun killer to play against because it's a little harder to outplay him than M1 killers.
Any tweaks should be a give and take on him - if his anti-looping skills take a hit, give him a big buff to his actual chase game.
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I think thats what I tried to do. Weaken his chase and give him some map pressure and gen regression. I hope this is a give and take!
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Myers & deathslinger slow they need to go faster I agree
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I don't think a ranged killer like DS should have 115% movement speed and the survivors definitely dont need a sound notification the second he uses his power. I like this bloody state you mention but the exchange of not being able to instant ADS is not worth it and it just makes him a slightly worse deathslinger if you do enter the bloody state. this won't make him better even if he is at a constant 115% speed so this would just nerf him with an unequal compensation for his power level. the gen explosion doesn't make sense and is too weak and situational to be useful.
he is balanced because if survivors spread gens he can't apply pressure by getting down after down along with being slow. you need your team to prioritize that. in honestly unless the bloody state you mention massively boosts him in exchange for not having instant ADS this isn't a good change to him. also again no sound notification is needed for him the one we have for him aiming down sights too long is fine.
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Few issues with this:
- His instant ADS is the only thing he has against good survivors. Making it not instant pretty much kills him unless you are willing to make his movement speed while ADS about 105 to 110%
- Idk why you would want to be able to W game against him, that's just boring gameplay from both sides.
- Good buff Idea, but right now he really shouldn't be changed. He doesn't need a buff or nerf.
I mean, this is one of the better suggestions for him, but if he isn't broke, don't fix him. And right now he ain't broken.
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Have you ever played Wraith without add-ons or old Leatherface? This would make Deathslinger feel like them where you get to a loop and should be able to down someone, but they've given you this slowdown/charge that causes you to just miss your chance. If they want to change Deathslinger I feel like this isn't the way to do it.
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A lot of the issues people have with him tend to be more on survivor side or caused by map design.
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Ah sorry! The bloody state was originally a reduce in the speed that the chain moved, would that work better?
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I have played Wraith without addons, I get scared using anything that has a limit so I barely do that! But to avoid that situation is to try to shoot or predict before. Lucky shoots are the best shoots.
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Thanks! My original intention is to take away some of his chase while giving him potential map pressure and gen regression. Also the bloody state was originally a reduce in chain speed, would that work better?
Thanks for saying this is one of the better suggestions I put some time into this and collected data so hearing that id a reward even if the product isn't the best!
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did the game you come from happen to be called white noise? i swear it is impossible to win as the monster unless the players suck and don't know the objective spawns.
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Exactly, seems like all survivor mains say that killers are "too op" well in it's a 1v4 game if they don't have even the slightest upper hand they will just get destroyed every match. Not like they already do or anything.
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Who are you talking too?
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There is counterplay against Deathslinger. You can't dodge a shot directly but you can move in such a way as to maximize the chance that the Deathslinger will miss their shot. Someone who moves tactically is less likely to be hit than someone who doesn't. Just because you can't 100% dodge something doesn't mean there's no counterplay.
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Who do you think genius? Probably the person I quoted but that's just a guess
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No the game I was referring to is Predator Hunting Grounds. The surviving sde on there is ridiculously easy at the moment. Just one guy can second wind a predator on there under the right circumstances. (second wind is kind of like borrowed time but for the killer side) and if that's on cooldown then the Predator just gets downed instead which at that point it's dead. It'll win most 1v1s but it struggles if the Fireteam is any decent and can lose it if they're not careful enough. 4v1 against a decent Fireteam and you might as well go AFK.
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That and the whole point is to break the chain. Why does everybody forget about breaking the chain? Lol
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I've been thinking this over and, while I don't love it, I would like to see it in a PTB. I think it would make him a more well-rounded killer, instead of the hyper-agressive chase God with a side helping of absolutely no map pressure outside of a snowball he currently is.
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First fix would make him a joke. His only true power comes from instant ads.
It's punished for missing with a cool down AND reload. So nobody is spam shooting.
Also being m1 then shot and downed is absolutely not a thing. Only conceivable way is if you have 5+ stacks on StBFL. Or if a Survivor runs into obstacles after the m1 while running into a dead zone.
Scenario 1 is highly situational and requires farming StBFL first.
Scenario 2 is null because I can just catch up and m1 again.
Not trying to be rude. Just stating some facts and opinions
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Not to me, I tried to to a give and take. Taking away his near instantaneous ADS and shooting replacing it with something that gives him gen regression. This is meant to buff him while making more fun to go against.
If his instant ADS is his strongest thing and not his power to reel survivors in that many complain it isnt fun then some tweaking should be done.
This game is meant to be fun.
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Sorry you don't like it! While I doubt this will enter PTB you can imagine basic scenaries with this Tweak and see how it could play out?
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Sorry! I was a bit sleepy at the time!
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Because breaking the chain can be difficult. First you may not have enough distance or obstacles to do so, the deathslinger can lunge out of his chain to hit you, so even if your far he can still hit even if the chain is about to break.
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The counterplay you mentioned is a bit weird in my perspective.
You can't dodge the shoots directly, moving in a odd path is just letting him catch up stopping it lets him shoot.
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Not at the cost of trying to make a unique and FUN to play killer just like every other killer. Instant ads accuracy takes skill and is still easily missed in even the most skilled hands. Giving it a nearly 1 second time along with a sound cue would make it useless. I don't want anymore useless powers on 115 killers. It's un-fun. Just run line of sight blockers as often as possible. Why? Because instant shots aren't instant. The killer has to predict your movement and take time to match it while lining up his ads IN HIS HEAD to hit you reliably. Running line of site blockers for even a second makes him have to restart this calculation. Many Survivors keep me from even risking a shot just by going from tree to tree as long as they're not easily predictable.
You pose this as a "give and take" but it's just a way to make him more like the killers you already know how to outplay.
Rather than try to form a game to your skills under the "fun" guise. Learn his counterplay. Hell, if this thread was asking for counterplay advice us slinger mains would give you a plethora of ways we're foiled.
So no thanks. I'm good at 110 and unique and unique fun gameplay. I've got enough generic 115 to pick from for mindless looping.
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the counterplay for deathslinger is stealth. I know a lot of people absolutely loathe the idea of having a killer that they can't loop endlessly, but his counterplay is in his backstory. He's been a bounty hunter, so the best his bounty (the survivors in this) can do is lay low, hide and get everything they need to do to get their behinds out of there safely without him catching on.
And I agree, taking away the semi-insta shoots would break him. Some people have advocated to give him as much a delay as huntress, which would make the entire ability of the redeemer useless, cause people would be out of range before he can shoot.
Honestly: I maintain the opinion that people are simply calling for tweaks and nerfs on him cause they refuse to change their gameplay from 'engage in endless looping while the others do gens' that they try to apply to every killer, regardless of abilities.
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The parts I didn't like we're the generator effects, and the increased ADS after hitting. It becomes Nurse syndrome: Making a killer harder to play doesn't remove the core issue.
With these changes, Slinger would play more like an m1 killer, which would be good for overall balance, but the new play would become STBFL Redeemer-into-m1, which is already an extremely strong play but is currently as a 110 killer. This nullifies the effect of the increased ADS after hitting, and practically becomes a ranged instadown. Plus, Slinger doesn't kick gens that much, so it might be overkill to give him that ability as well.
Edit: I should clarify, the increased post-hit ADS would force that to be the only play, which while difficult is still strong
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Stealth is another viable counterplay.
I share your exact sentiment. He's not OP, in my opinion he's one of the hardest killers to get 4k with. But I'm good with even 1k because it's unique. The only reason I main him is his unique ability to make SWF squads scramble by reeling a Survivor away from the mob. People that just want to loop, tbag, drop a pallet, then move to next loop rinse and repeat will always fight to change anything that makes them deviate from that.
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You uh don't play him much do ya?
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This is the most wobbly ######### I've ever seen I think I'm gonna throw up.
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And like, the people that complain the loudest about how he has no counterplay are the same that will stand there in the open gate, injured and tbag him as if that is an plan that will work out...
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I run blood warden only on him. It's amazing how fast he can make them rethink their actions. I love it... Tbagging injured then bam hooked and the others never leave til they see you coming back after hooking... By then it's too late 😅
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Sorry!
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