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Some things some people don't get about No Mither, Thanatophobia, wiggling, etc.
Perks like NM, Thanatophobia, etc., sometimes get ######### on because people who run them "never get to use them", or, in the case of Thanatophobia and wiggling, don't make as much of an impact as they wanted. In this thread I'll try to explain why they have the wrong mindset about these perks/interactions.
Let's start with No Mither. Arguably, its main characteristics are the permanent Broken status and the ability to pick yourself up from the dying state as many times as you want.
Now, as we all know, most killers won't let a No Mither survivor stay in the dying state; they will hook that survivor. To survivors, this seems like a waste of No Mither, since they never get to pick themselves up from the dying state. However, consider this: you didn't pick yourself up, but the killer was forced to hook you. They could've slugged you to pressure everyone if you didn't have the perk, but they couldn't, because you had No Mither.
Now Thanatophobia. The perk slows down survivors' interactions depending on how many are alive and not healthy.
At its full power, it increases generator repair time by 20 seconds (see my PSA on how to properly calculate how long interactions take if you're slowed). Killers see this as useless because that almost never happens, since survivors will just heal each other and there's no reliable way to make them Broken.
The thing is that when survivors are constantly healing each other, they're actually wasting more time than you would've otherwise gained from Thanatophobia. One heal takes 16 seconds, assuming one survivor is healing another. That's two survivors who are doing nothing for almost the same length of time as Thanatophobia at full power.
Wiggling. It takes 16 seconds to fully escape from the killer's grasp, but it's seen as useless because "you can never wiggle free" and some survivors just won't wiggle at all. On the other hand, the fact that you're wiggling to begin with will prevent the killer from taking you into the basement, or hooking you in some remote corner of the map away from your teammates, or hooking you in a dead zone so you can't escape if they come back.
The mindset that if you don't fully use something it becomes worthless completely ignores one important concept: deterrence. These effects aren't there to be used every single time, they're there to heavily discourage the other side from ignoring the perks/mechanics.
So, the next time you look at a perk or mechanic, don't just think about the immediate effects and how often you will realistically be able to use them, but also think about how that will change the way your opponents play.
EDIT: Since it seems I didn't explain myself correctly, I'll try to be clearer. I'm not saying these perks and mechanics are great, nor am I saying that you should use them. What I am saying is that their existence is enough to force your opponents to change tactics, which can be an advantage if you play your cards right.
Comments
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No mither is crap. Are you really trying to say it's anything other than a meme perk?
Given the current meta, soulguard gives the benefit of no mither without having to be a 1 shot all game. I was actually trying to slug for the 4k earlier and realized the guy I was slugging had soul guard and I had to hook him and play the hatch game because it was going to be impossible.
Thantaphobia is trash on anyone who isn't legion or plague. The majority of other killers punish you not healing by downing you easily. Maybe you could argue it for Bubba or Billy but they have much better perks to run.
Wiggling is also useless 99% of the time unless you are in a SWF who are going to bodyblock for you. It's only there to keep yourself from getting put into the basement.
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Thats extremely superficial and sometimes just wrong.
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I'm saying that just because you may not get to trigger a specific effect doesn't mean the effect itself is worthless. The threat of the effect is sometimes the goal, like in the case of wiggling, which you somehow discard as useless while simultaneously agreeing with what I said.
I only used No Mither, Thanatophobia, and wiggling as examples to make an overall larger point, not to say "these perks are fine as they are". I'm not sure how to get that idea across.
Superficial is looking at an effect and going "I never triggered this, so it's useless". What I'm doing is looking at how the very existence of the effect impacts the game.
Sorry, but you need to use some paragraphs.
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Good grief...
Players like yourself just make me shake my head, and wonder how many other things these players are closed minded about.
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What was most surprising to me is that they agreed with what I said about wiggling being there to, among other things, prevent you from being hooked in the basement, yet managed to miss the point entirely.
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Thank you.
My goodness, this is a round about way of saying what I’ve been saying about a lot of things in this game: “How does such n such alter the opposing sides behaviour? And how do I USE that to my ADVANTAGE?” (Because there is ALWAYS an advantage to be gained if one is to think in both an intelligent and abstract way about something in this game).
Exactly like you said about No Mither. It FORCES the killer to pick you up (or at their folly if they’re not paying attention). When that behaviour is considered, then there ARE ways to use that to help your team. The one thing I advocate is how No Mither can STOP a killer from blindly tunnelling another survivor by taking a protection hit for them. Now the killer is momentarily stuck with indecision about whether to let the No Mither player revive themselves or not ignore them.
Even Monstrous Shrine, as poor a perk as it is, is not entirely useless. It creates URGENCY when a survivor is hooked in the basement. I.e. it gets the other survivors (or at least one) off of a gen MUCH sooner. That may not seem like much, but in this game seconds count. Those few seconds of less repair time could mean the difference between catching and downing a survivor in it before repair is finished, or them finishing repairs and scooting off to a pallet just in time.
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@Orion explained the deeper mechanics and nuances of a select range of often misunderstood things in this game.
I’m wondering if you understand what the word “superficial” means...
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The only thing I disagree on is Thanatophobia. On the one hand, you are totally right and the slowdown is supposed to come from healing. On the others the sheer number of no-heal genrushers I've gone against whilst using Thanatophobia just goes to show that it's more of a psychological effect of tricking them into healing than an actual, real, and impactful debuff. And if I'm being honest, I personally fall into that same catagory as a survivor. It's only 20% at its absolute maximum, which in itself is rarely achieved and is effectively less than a single Pop per generator.
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The issue with your thanatophobia is that there are several killers were its completely worthless on because SURVIVORS HEAL ANYWAYS.
I have actively advised against his perk to a friend on death slinger due to survivors ALWAYS healing against him due to how insanely powerful his power is against injured survivors.
While it may encourage healing on survivors to get rid of it most of the time they are healing anyways making that part pointless and the actual generator slowdown is negligible which is the case for most killers.
The main killers where thana is good on is legion/plague as survivors healing gives them advantages(Legion gets extra slowdown and plague gets corrupt purge).
I feel the irony of the thana change was that it having the stacking healing speed slow encouraged survivors to heal when they'd normally wouldn't due to not wanting to have the healing speed slow stack too much for when they'd want to heal.
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You must play on brown ranks because good survivors only heal when it's necessary, most of them have adrenaline anyway and just genrush until it pops. And if survivors heal its a win/win for both of them. They waste so much time doing it and I much rather have survivors heal all the time than not do gens lol.
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It is not an in-depth analysis of any sort. All the presented information is rather basic, and the assumptions he makes basing on this data are at the very least questionable.
This post overall stands on the same level as "do bones to counter noed" kind of threads: green ranks (no offense) perception of the game.
In short:
-No mither is far more harmful than beneficial under any circumstances.
-Thana is viable for obvious reasons but just on two killers; all the others slightly benefit from it but not nearly enough to make this perk an optimal choice for any sort of a build, the numbers on it are just insufficient;
-Wiggling-oriented perks are generally not working outside of memeing SWFs against weaker killers; suggested scenarios are far too rare (most of the times you are just hooked at the closest spot avilable) to even consider equipping this stuff as long as you are playing ftw.
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The biggest advantage of No Mither isn't the perk itself. No Mither is the perk that combines best with other perks. You can play build like No Mither, Resilience, This is not happening and maybe Iron Will (or something else). You have an infinite Resilience effect. Also, you have bigger great skill checks all match. Iron Will is probably the best on the last slot. You are quiet and you leave no blood. You can use Spine Chill instead of Iron Will. This way you can have an infinite Vault Speed Build.
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You’re correct. It is more a psychological effect.
I did a post a few weeks back explaining the symbiotic nature of Thana & A Nurse’s Calling on Nurse, in how Thana is meant to trick survivors. It’s more about getting Nurse’s Calling to proc often so that Nurse has plain as day, easy, stationary Blink targets.
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I think you might have convinced me.
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Again, my point is not that these perks and mechanics are amazing. In fact, it's not about them at all. It's about the fact that the existence of certain effects by itself will change the way people play.
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A single Pop per generator that is completely passive however, you don’t have to do anything special for the slowdown to occur, as opposed to Pop where you have to go out of your way to kick the gen you want to Pop which takes time and isn’t possible if a gen is already regressing. Pop has more maintenance and risk associated with it than Thanatophobia.
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Soul guard only activate at the risk of other coming to that person rescue for a heal. It only activate if a hex Is up for a full pickup or with unbreakable. No mither is pretty much hard mode for survivors. If a survivor is running it you are technically forced to get rid of them just like OoO.
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Making your post more easily readable using paragraphs is common sense, you’re only hurting your own chances of someone paying attention to your post by typing a giant block of text.
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No mither is my personal favorite when combo with breakout, mettle of man and borrow time. I tend to risk myself with my own body just for my team so this build suit me.
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True, Thana is passive, but it's still just not enough to justify itself agaisnt the majority of teams who will just heal anyway and this make Sloppy a better choice.
Thana should be an anti-genrush perk, something that forces the survivors to heal or face the consequences. As it stands, the consequences are more "ugh" than "oh shite."
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I don’t have a strong stance on how good or bad Thana is, it depends quite a bit on the playstyle of the survivors you’re up against and your killer for instance. It’s worth noting though that Thana and Sloppy do stack, you can hypothetically even run Pop, Thana and Sloppy all at once and get the benefits of all three, or run Ruin + Undying plus Sloppy plus Thana if you really wanted to go all in on gen slowdown. (I’m not sure that having all your eggs in the slowdown basket is a great idea but you do at least get the full slowdown benefits of all the perks involved.)
Not to mention that not every killer has every perk available from their bloodweb all the time. If my choice is Thana versus, say, Monstrous Shrine and Hangman’s Trick I’m going with Thana. Thana doesn’t have to be top tier to be in the running for the third or fourth perk slot, it just has to be average or above average really.
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That's... not rocket science? All the perks do it in one way or another.
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And yet, that's ignored by a lot of people, which is why this thread exists.
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I feel that no mither is more like a challenge perk.
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Definitely, but a lot of people say the "you can pick yourself up an unlimited number of times" part of it is useless, which is simply not the case.
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true, it is not useless, but seems unlikely to happen. you may use tenacity and unbreakable with it.
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Thanks for this post! I've always specifically disliked No Mither because I never saw any real use for it. But you explained it beautifully. Seconds can really make or break a victory, especially when you leave the potato ranks.
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Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you should use No Mither or that it's a great perk. All I'm saying is that even if you don't get to use a certain mechanic, it doesn't mean the mechanic is useless or that you wasted a perk slot. In NM's case, the threat of you being able to pick yourself up is enough for killers to change their behavior, and sometimes that's all you need, if you plan correctly.
My point is that the threat of it is enough to change how killers play, which is useful in and of itself if you play your cards right.
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Except many players don’t actually acknowledge that. This @Orion point.
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I like your mindset, OP.
Side note: No Mither is great outside of memeing and I'll defend it to the death.
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It seems like no mither works best as a pairing perk and what I mean by that is pairing it with resilience and iron will. 4 perks I use that includes no mither are, prove thyself, iron will, and resilience. It seems to be very effective in getting generators repaired but I also understand that there is a gamble that a killer can down me in one hit and if they tunnel like quite a few killers seem to enjoy doing that it can be difficult. However to me, the reward out weighs the risk.
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I think No Mither is pretty useless, you forced the Killer to pick you up, but what's the point if you made the chase 2x easier for the Killer to begin with?
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And that's fine, but if you're trying to talk with other people, it helps if your posts are readable. Otherwise you're just talking with yourself.
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