Anti-Tunneling Perk Idea
I and a lot of others want another anti tunnelling perk that's less frustrating for killers than DS. I've had this idea for a while, and I think it's good, but please tell me what you think! If it's too OP feel free to tear me apart, or preferably tell me your own ideas!!
Bodyguard: After unhooking someone, for 30-60 seconds or until the unhooked person is fully healed, the next hit that would put the unhooked person into the dying state instead inflicts the deep wound status effect, and the person who unhooked them takes the damage of the hit instead.
If that's too strong then maybe make it like Cheryl's Blood Pact, where it only remains active if you're within a certain radius of the survivor.
It might make deerstalker a less useless perk, since now you have the opportunity to down someone who's farther away than you normally could as an m1 killer. It has a lot of opportunities for synergy in survivor builds.
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So.... Borrowed time but abit stronger for killer as it inflicts damge on another survivor? I see what you are saying and it might be better but would be good to keep the killer stun for 5 seconds.
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Its basically just a stronger version of Borrowed Time. One question why would the unhooking survivor take the damage? The survivors that get unhooked could just stand there and get hit to just give damage to other people. It's a good idea but I feel like it could be trolled
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A lot of perks in the game are just stronger/weaker/conditional versions of other perks in the game, that's the once argument I don't like against perks.
I made it so the unhooking survivor takes damage so that it doesn't feel OP when it acts like a 60 second borrowed time. It could definitely be trolled, you're right about that. For an SWF or when you get teammates who don't try to grief (which is honestly more common than getting those who DO try to grief), that's not much of an issue though. Its a risk/reward type perk, with a good reward. Plus, it gives the killer incentive to stop tunneling the unhooked survivor since now another person is injured/down. If the killer tunnels the unhooked survivor for 45 seconds off hook, and then hits them only to find that they had Bodyguard, they can either continue to waste time chasing them, or give up and stop tunneling, and go look for the damaged unhooker.
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DS just needs to have a deactivation method. Either another survivor gets hooked, you get fully healed, or you start working on a gen. With that, it will still be a very effective anti-tunneling tool, but wont punish Killers for leaving the person alone and finding them again before the timer runs out. While another anti-tunneling perk wouldn't be the worst thing, we already have two, one of which is just a better version of this one, and the other being one of the strongest perks in the game.
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Stronger for killer but also strong for survivors because it lasts much longer, assuming your teammate is decent at looping. If the killer tunnels the survivor off hook for 45 seconds, only to hit them and find they have Bodyguard, then they have to decide whether or not to waste more time tunneling to try and down them, or they can stop tunneling and try to find the unhooker, since now they have incentive to because they're injured. Its a time waster for killers, and a big benefit for those getting tunnelled, but much less frustrating than a DS stun for killers.
I personally don't like DS that much, because it just makes killers that much more inclined to tunnel you once you use it in my experience.
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If theres one thing I've learn from this "game" it's to never assume your teammates are good. Always assume they're potatoes in need of constant saving. Then when they do good thats when you apply praise to the potatoes
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I would actually use the perk atleast I know I've got a little bit of a chance after being unhooked.
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That's fair, but like you said, another anti-tunneling Perk wouldn't be bad, and they seem to be running out of completely unique perk ideas (ffs, Felix got Deja Vu 2.0 with a cool down, the solo version of Streetwise, and survivor version of Thana). I'd personally use this perk over BT since it has a longer guarantee time, and it has the higher risk for the higher amount of Killer time you can waste. DS is one of my least favorite perks even as survivor because even when I do get to use it, all it seems to do is just piss the killer off and make them tunnel harder.
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Only the savior can apply Bodyblock to the hooked survivor. Thus making it another teammate dependent perk
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Lmao, you've got me there. For every God tier Steve, there's an Urban Evasion blendette... Or two or three blendettes. Still, I'm big on altruism and never opposed to dying for my teammates, even if they don't always deserve it.
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Exactimundo my friend
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Isn't there already another anti tunnel perk called babysitter?
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Nobody runs babysitter though. I love running it but they seem to always find the recently hooked survivor because they're proxy camping. I run BT with babysitter but I've never had a survivor actually survive when I saved them. So idk if you would call that an anti tunnel perk
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I wonder what are some ways to buff babysitter?
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Yep, that's Steve's perk! Its not very similar to this perk though, it's an okay perk paired with BT- I actually run that on my Altruism-Steve build. Still, all that does on its own is hide the unhooked survivor's scratch marks and blood for 8 seconds. This would be more aligned with BT than that, but still unique.
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So, BT but longer and with a downside? Yeah, I'd run it if it had a 60 second duration and maybe a neato secondary effect, like temp aura reading for the bodyguard.
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Yep! That was the exact intention :) Stronger BT but with a downside to make sure it's not TOO strong, and to make it actually act as an anti-tunneling Perk by giving killers incentive to chase someone else if they hit the unhooked survivor, because then someone else will be injured. A secondary effect like you said would give it the edge it needs to find its way into people's builds, so I'm all for that!
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It seems like it'd work decently well, though what happens if BT is double stacked?
And then theres the obvious "But DS" that would make this a complete ######### but this clearly wasn't designed like that.
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Lol a very effective anti-tunneling tool? Which perk is that? Because it certainly isn't Decisive Strike. A lot of the suggestions about the perk have to deal with The Killer's perspective and The Killer's experience, yet being tunneled is a Survivor sided issue. It's something the Survivor has to deal with. I'm all for narrowing the scope of the perk provided that it is in fact effective at dealing with tunneling. The existing iteration of the perk does little to help with being tunneled. DS it's more of a Chase extender and more likely to be a delay of the tunnel but ultimately you will still get tunneled. It's still extremely easy to circumvent the perk in its entirety.
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Add in new Mechanic:
Requires all 4 Survivors to get first hook, so Killer can last hook a Survivor.
Now Killer has to at least 6 hooks to kill the first Survivor.
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Bodyguard would trump BT, the deep wound effect would take place and the unhooker would be injured when the unhooked survivor is hit. Basically, running BT with it would be pointless.
I personally hate DS as killer and survivor so yeah, I didn't think much about it when making this perk. Im not sure how the combo would fare, but I'd love ideas on it if you have any.
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It's anti-tunnel because it punishes the Killer for tunneling. If they want to tunnel someone with DS, they need to catch and down them, eat the 5 second stun, and then go and hunt them down again. Depending on how good the person using DS is, they could run the killer for half a minute before needing to use DS, which is almost half a gen with a single person working on it. Then another 5 seconds with the stun, and then another chase that could last even longer due to the stun letting them go anywhere they want, and the Killer could lose several Gens because they tunneled someone running the perk. How is that not an anti-tunnel perk?
And people complain about how the perk effects Killers because it punishes them for doing absolutely nothing wrong. Having someone be unhooked, downing someone else and hooking them, then getting DS'd after finding the person again is not that uncommon.
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Why wouldn't it be better to just make DS better at preventing tunneling and less frustrating for killer by fixing the abusable parts of it that aren't tunneling?
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Honestly I think BHVR needs to have an in-built mechanic for anti-tunneling rather than just making you have to bring a bunch of insurance policy perks.
I've had some pretty whack matchmaking this week and the amount of times I see teammates just get run down off hook because they aren't great at looping is frustrating when I make it obvious to the killer where I am and have BT.
The fact that I have to hope that my teammates have purchased the Halloween DLC, leveled Laurie to 40, and got DS on the character they want to play in order for the killer to not just remove them from the game is not good for the health of the game or the enjoyment of these less experienced players imo.
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Buff Sping Burst:
- make it trigger for free when unhooked.
- If after being unhooked you get chased by the killer you move at a faster speed. After 20 second not being in a chase with the killer the perk lost this property.
then is up to the survival to play in a safe way to not get tunneled.
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I don't think that would be any better or any worse than adding another perk that prevents tunneling in a different way. More perk diversity is always good.
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That's your opinion but keep in mind you said "a very effective anti-tunneling tool." I disagree with that statement and outlined why. You haven't introduced anything compelling enough to change my mind. DS can provide some relief once per trial assuming you hit the Skill Check, which people can miss and do so within 60s. Yet you can be tunneled twice per trial and tunneling can exceed 60s. This singular opportunity of potential relief, largely dependent on the skill of both players, isn't the anti-tunnel tool you claim it to be That was my point. I agree that it needs some tuning but the first order of business should be the experience and perspective of the impacted party: the Survivor. People want to suggest a laundry list of deactivation conditions and requirements which benefit The Killer but provide no real support to the Survivor that has to endure being tunneled twice most games. I'm all for balance and fairness, but tunneling is a Survivor sided problem first and foremost.
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It would be great antitunneling perk that make you run with 150% speed for 3 seconds when you unhooked!
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I main Killer, and unless I'm playing really bad, I can down an injured survivor within 60 seconds of finding them, usually much less. If you're really worried about the timer running out, you can just let them down you before it does so they get stunned, or jump into a locker. That's not really an issue. If you're able to loop the Killer for 60 seconds while injured, while out of position, you don't need DS.
DS only works once per trial, but you only ever need it at most twice. A perk that gives you a powerful tool when being tunneled one of two times you need it is very good. Just the existence of the perk discourages tunneling. I know that if there's an obsession in the game, I'll never go after the unhooked survivor unless there's literally no other option. And I think you're underestimating what Survivors can do with a 5 second stun. This guarantees that they make it to a very good loop, where they can loop the Killer for a long time. It's not perfect at getting the Killer to not tunnel you, but it punishes them harshly for doing so, leading to your team gaining a massive advantage.
The only weaknesses of the perk is that you can only use it once and the fact that it's on a timer, but every perk needs counterplay. And every single perk in the game has counterplay. Right now, the only counterplay to DS is waiting for the timer to run out, and eating the DS so that they can't use it again. Both of which you're complaining about, and are implying you want changed. You can't just remove all current counterplay, especially since you're saying that you want this done before improving it on the Killer side. This would create a period of time where the perk would have 0 counterplay, and the Killer playerbase would sink by a lot. It would create a meta where the unhooker hides, and the unhooked forces the Killer to go after them and eat the stun multiple times per match, or give up their pressure entirely. You can't balance for one side while completely ignoring the other, you have to consider both sides with every change. Removing the counterplay WOULD make it better for Survivors. But in doing so, you're ######### over the Killers. The perk is already strong and widely hated, people would quit the game over this.
Imagine if they buffed old Ruin so that it's harder to get rid of, or so that Great Skill checks regressed Generators the same way Good Skill Checks did. Survivors would be quitting left and right, and rightfully so, as it would not be fair to them. Buffing an already strong and widely used perk to remove counterplay would cause mass groups of people to leave. If you want to buff DS, you have to nerf it at the same time. If you want to remove the current counterplay, you have to add some somewhere else. You can't just buff one of the best perks in the game because Killers are able to get around it sometimes.
DS already does it's job by harshly punishing Killers for tunneling (as well as naturally deter them from trying to tunnel), and doesn't need the only counterplay removed.
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Sure there are killers deterred by DS but there are some who aren't, etc. DS isn't the very effective anti-tunnel tool you initially declared it to be, my sole point was to address that. I think DS needs some fine tuning but absolutely the changes need to weigh the Survivor's experience. The existing iteration of DS, can help with tunneling but it isn't anti-tunnel. That's an important distinction. The suggestions are always about improving the experience of The Killer and watering it down so it's less useful outside of tunneling (I agree) without also addressing how it isn't always useful when you are in fact being tunneled. If you allow yourself to go down or jump into a locker within the allocated time doesn't guarantee you will get to use it bc The Killer will often altogether bypass DS. So yes, some Survivors go out of their way to use DS with bold plays bc Killers go out of their way to circumvent it. This is why it is hated (for those that don't tunnel but get hit) and for the segment of players that love to tunnel freely. And on second rescue, you're a prime target for an insta-tunnel and rehook. So that's also a problem.
DS can help with tunneling but doesn't always. I agree, narrow the scope and reach of DS so people can't use it beyond getting tunneled but it must be effective at achieving the stated goal.
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No perk is always effective it the intended situation, unless it has a small effect. Unbreakable doesn't always help with Slugging. Adrenaline doesn't always guarantee a heal in certain situations if the Killer knows what they're doing, and it doesn't always even activate. Save the Best for Last doesn't always help you get the second hit. Pop Goes the Weasel doesn't always help keep gens up. Same with Ruin. Why should DS be any different? The effect when it works is strong, it shouldn't always work. That's how it is with every single other strong effect perk. The old DS didn't have this problem, which is why it was changed. If you weren't right beside a hook, you could not avoid being stunned. Making it 100% effective would bring back that old issue, where if you have to go after the person with DS active, you can not pick them up. You'd have to make a survivor completely invincible to stop Killers from tunneling them, people will always Tunnel. The best outcome is you waste a ######### ton of their time for doing so, which is what DS does right now, and does so very effectively.
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You're comparing apples to oranges. All of those perks produce the intended result. Whether that's being able to pick yourself up, rapidly regressing one generator, getting a health state and speed boost or reducing the CD of hits. When you meet the conditions, these perks work. Whether you have success is another story as these perks don't guarantee any outcome. Likewise with DS, it currently works exactly as intended. You stun The Killer if you're grabbed within 60s of being rescued and succeed a difficult Skill Check. It makes no mention of being successful at escaping after the stun or that you will necessarily get to even decisively strike The Killer. However it produces the intended result.
My issue is that people want to label DS as a remedial perk for tunneling but make no meaningful changes so that it is actually an anti-tunnel perk. The cornerstone of these suggestions exclusively benefit The Killer. And imo the existing version isn't a "very effective anti-tunneling" perk. Maybe the one-time use DS with myriad deactivation conditions and a reduced timer can make tunneling harder or less appealing via a variety of changes. It doesn't have to be as powerful, dramatic and oppressive as you suggest. Killers already easily circumvent DS, tunneling is effective and already easy so I'm against changes that make it even easier and faster. Balance the perk for both roles and make it truly anti-tunnel.
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