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The hypocrisy of Dead by Daylight
One of the most unfortunate sides of Dead by Daylight is the fact that hypocrisy runs rampant. A major side of the hypocrisy is of perk loadouts and certain builds such as Ruin/Undying BBQ/Pop Goes the Weasel and Decisive Strike/Unbreakable. Usually these perks are some of the most used and can be abused. But what appalls me alot is the fact that a Killer or Survivor will use one of these perk builds and then criticize the other side for using something equally as powerful. I do think that in fact it is wrong to complain about one side but then use equally powerful perks as listed above. if you do complain about one of these builds and then use another equally powerful build, you yourself are a hypocrite and I think that you you should get another Hobby
Comments
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The thing is though, bbq, pop, ruin and undying can be countered, ds + unbreakable cannot
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as ds and unbreakable can only be used once its better to just eat the ds
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and pop technically cant be countered other than genrush and Repressed Alliance which nobody uses
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Sadly that is the only way to technically counter it. Which feeds into it more than anything.
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You just listed 2 ways to counter it, pop got merged recently and if it’s such an issue for you then bring repressed alliance
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I think the dumb part is that the reason Killer's use these perks is to balance the game.
Pop is needed for balanced gen regression.
BBQ/Thrilling is needed to actually find survivors and keep the game active.
Undying is required to barely make Hex perks viable. (I'm only explaining this one because you included in your original post. Actually in higher ranks you rarely see hex perks even Undying because they are still so incredibly unreliable. It's easy to remember totem spanws, and it's not difficult to find them. Most spawns are even directly in most Survivors pathing)
The reason Survivors use these perks is to optimize additional second chances. When in a game where the Killer makes one mistake that will cost them the whole match.
It's extremely unbalanced and one sided when you actually look at it all statistically. Survivors only have a hard time because most were raised in the game relying entirely on the second chances, and being pandered too - they are not good enough or have the common knowledge of the game to know that with some actual learning they are unstoppable. Then when you get to high ranks - the best are the only survivors you ever face, making it awful for Killers. Sure in high ranks you get some bad eggs of survivors because leving survivor is easy, but you really only need 2 strong survivors in a match or SWF to completely decimate a killer that isn't Spirit, or Nurse (Killers that apply both pressure to survivors and gen's quickly).
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That's not a counter at all. You're not mitigating the effects of the combo, you're not preventing it from activating at all. In fact, you're purposefully activating it.
That sounds like a reason to use Repressed Alliance.
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Another part of the problem I believe is people only play one side usually. A survivor won't understand the Killers struggles since they don't play that side enough. And vice versa. They won't know that pains of each other.
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How can bbq be abused? It's not overpowered and most of the time it tells the killer where to go.
Pop same thing, killer has to work for it, killer has to down someone and hook them.
And eating a DS against smart survivors can cost you the game.
On average DS/UB can be countered but if there are more than 1 using that combo is stronger than any killer perk combo.
I don't use ruin + undying unless it's a killer I'm not that familiar with.
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I did say technically, Mostly because it deactivates it for the rest of the game.
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This Forum in a nutshell sometimes:
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I don't use either so I can whine as much as I like 😇
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They can slugging and mori and mori you get in every each blloodweb
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A huge part of it, as Scott Jund mentioned in a video, is both sides hugely lack empathy for the other. Why should a survivor main care if the killer gets looped all game, or plays well but loses to a full team using DS/UB? They had fun, so "GGEZ baby killer"
Why would a killer main care if a Solo Q is hell, and some perks make it that much worse? Only "entitled survivor mains" cry about losing. They got a 4K, they has fun, they totally earned it. All Survivors are just "entitled". People just need more empathy, but with the anonymity of online games I don't see it happening. That's just my two cents though.
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That's not even what the post is about, no one even brought up moris.
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Person said ds can't be countered I replied how it can be countered it's not that deep
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Unrelated, the thread is about perk combos not offerings
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So you want killers to bring a Mori every game? You can’t slug if they have unbreakable that’s the point and survivors can jump in a locker to ds you
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Uhm mori is given into game and players are supposed to use it and not just look at it if you're so afraid of eating ds bring mori problem solved
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They can still use lockers
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Killers use gen defense perks because base gen speed is unbalanced. So can't really call them hypocrites as they're pretty much forced to use them unless they want 5 minutes games. Survivors on the other hand can abuse the day unbreakable combo and up to 4 survivors can have this and sometimes you get hit by DS even though you didn't tunnel
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All you saying is situational as if lockers are right next to hook and if ur not camping that means you're onto another person and doesn't need to worry about ds of unhooked person because it will ran off while u chase down another person and hook them
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I agree.You rarely see people acknowledging the problems of the other sides.
It's all "You're just bad the game.Git gud"
Super annoying to see and this kind of mentality just prevents any meaningful discussion.
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It's because "whataboutism" runs rampant on the forums. Mention moris "what about keys?" Camping "What about SWF?" And vice versa.
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Yep,it happens every damn time :]
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Guy, we use DH, DS and UB because of campers/tunnelers/sluggers
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Trying to use Mori's as a counter to DS is probably one of the dumbest things I ever heard. A very rare offering against one of the most popular perks in the game. I don't think you can even find any other idea more unreliable than that.
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Very rare item that explains my 80 moris in my loadout 😂
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Jesus it's like you only read half of what I said then replied to me and she isn't the problem here lol
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The reason when get modi’s so much is we don’t have as many things as survivors do. Survivors have 3 base items each with lots of different addons. Killers only have their killer addons and offerings.
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Only a tunneler will find there is no counter to DS + Unbreakable. Why did you go back to the hook and slugged them?
This the perfect hypocrisy of "I'm enjoying all my overpowered stuff to give me free easy wins but the other side can't have anything because I am supposed to be the power role"
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Thought this would be about how people complain about DS but then tunnel when they find out there's no obsession.
Personally I think this is more bhvr fault than anything. Well BBQ and Pop aren't a problem but the other 2 are way too strong if they get used and people will always use whats good so yeah bhvr should nerf op unfun things and they do.... it just takes 2 years
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It may not be about that but people who do that shouldn't be complaining about DS at all. 90% of the time I put DS on is because I just had a game with no obsession in it and the usual thing happened.
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If it's one person, then YES! If it's 4 people running smoll PP build, then no. It's not just a 5 second stun, It's a 5 second stun, then a 25 second head start, then more looping. There's still 3 people doing gens, and their time is less valuable than yours as a Killer. 1 DS can turn the tide of a game, but it's kind of avoidable. 4 and Unbreakable paired with each is damn near unwinnable if the survivors have half a brain.
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Slugging is a perfectly fine tactic and it's completely unrealistic to ask a Killer who wants to win the game not to slug, especially in high ranks. Campers are rare, since they are all just white rank console killers. Tunnelers are also quite rare, and DS is in no way shape or form an anti-tunneling perk
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Oh, so high level players like OhTofu, Scott Jund, Otzdarva, Tru3Talent, Monto, Umbra and many more are nothing but filthy tunnelers because they have issues with DS/Unbreakable? Pretty sure it's nothing more than a meme at this point that someone can unironically say that if you have a problem with DS you're just a tunneler.
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Slugging is a completely fine tactic, but its also unrealistic to ask survivors "Remove UB and let us slug you!" Campers and tunnelers are somewhat rare, but if your not using DS and or UB in that situation your going to have a painfully unfun time and more than likely are going to get removed from the game in a couple of minutes. Even though DS isn't an anti tunneling perk, it at least dissuades people from tunneling and gives the survivor a 2nd chance to escape them.
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Except that Otzdarva, Tru3Talent, and Umbra all have issues with DS. Including Cahlaflour, and Fungoose. Fungoose being - and I quote "Best Educational DBD Streamer" (probably self proclaimed, but I don't see anyone contesting that).
Including in their streams they often straight up say - Survivors are too powerful, and the Dev's really should give the power role back to the Killers. Survivors control the game right now. Survivor VS Killer if Survivor does everything right - Survivor wins. If Killer does everything right - the Killer still loses if the Survivor does everything right. Survivors have amples of second chance perks, that if you "counter" (ignore) them only further harms yourself. While Killers have to take perks in order to balance the game.
This is all stuff you learn by just watching these streamers.
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I'll provide some better examples on why survivors are more balanced than you think. I'm gonna ignore some stuff like keys and mori's though. When Dead by Daylight first started up, it was pretty obvious survivors were overpowered, and they continued to be overpowered until 2019ish. There were many nerfs from there on out, some of which are:
Map size reduction, Toolbox nerf, Insta-heal nerf, removal of overpowered loops and a pallet reduction on some maps, balanced landing nerf, exhaustion nerf, gen efficiency and skill check bonus, and some others I haven't included.
With these changes also came buffs for killers such as: Doctor buff, ruin rework (Arguably better than before), Bubbas buff, Some killer perks being buffed (EX: trails of torment), Freddy rework, and many more that I haven't brought up, Not to mention a lot of the new killers like Oni, Blight, and Pyramid head are pretty good.
After all these changes I highly doubt that survivors are overpowered, but of course I know that there are some BS things with the survivor role, like 4 man DS+ UB, but then again there's a lot of dumb things on both roles that make the game unfun.
Almost forgot but I also I acknowledge that along with all those killer buffs there have also been killer nerfs, like Hillbilly and Nurse but my defense to that is even with Nurses change she's still easily the best killer in the game, and while his nerf did affect him pretty hard I believe that hillbilly is still pretty good.
Post edited by Gay Myers (Luzi) on2 -
DS doesn't do anything against people who maliciously tunneling. They will just sit over you and wait out the DS and make sure you can't Unbreakable.
I know it's unrealistic to ask people to stop using a perk. That's why I want the perk changed. It's like if there was a perk that, once the last gen is completed, all generators are set back to 50% progress. You have the winning condition in front of you, all you have to do is wrap the match up, but then your opponent uses a perk to make you lose most of your progress and restart the game for them to have a second chance.
Another example is if there was a perk that exploded every generator on the map whenever someone lands a great skill check. You did something to make your job easier for a chance to win, but then a perk punishes you for doing said thing. You don't see how Unbreakable is a flawed design now?
Campers and tunnelers are not dissuaded in the slightest by second chance perks, because you can't play around them because they do their job horribly, but can be abused and used in another way to make them OP. Someone who wants YOU dead won't stop. They already don't care about the game. They just want YOU. Therefore, second chance perks don't really do anything if said killer has half a brain.
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I honestly don't understand why everything has to have a 'counter'? No one perk gives a survivor or killer an instant loss, so why does everything need a counter?
It's an asymmetric game.
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They win something like 99% of their matches as killer. That shouldn't even be remotely possible. If they are getting hit by DS then that means it is actually doing its job, just like they get benefits from their BBQ! How many times have they hit an unfair hatchet throw with BBQ when it traveled 20 meters above their head? They win with their perks a lot more than survivor wins with their perks. Killer perks are so much stronger than survivor perks.
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You missed the nerf to Ruin that made it can't synergize with other regression perks. The nerf to Pop after it became the only barely usuable balanced perk to deal with gen speed. You forgot the increase of pallets on all changed maps, and the addition of breakable doors that only block infinite loops while having them up keeps long/long loops - not actually providing any real benefit to Killers since they been implemented. You forgot the changes to the hatch which created the 2 door w/ hatch free escape, as well as Survivors still taking the game hostage to hide out for the 2 door w/ hatch free escape - since not doing the main objective and waiting out the hatch is easier
Toolboxes were never the problem with gen speed. Maps are often still too big (being worked on). Insta-heal never should of existed. There wasn't removal of overpowered loops, pallets were not decreased - once on lery's, but they pushed all the hooks wider apart so you can't hook anyone on that map anyways. Balanced Landing wasn't the best exhaust perk to begin with (Dead Hard is), and again the Dev's nerfed that because Survivors rathered that than to remove infinite loops. Not sure what you mean by "exhaustion nerf" or do you mean because you can no longer synergize quick and quiet, Head On, and an Exhaution perk now? Great skill checks is still a problem on gens.
Doctor buff was needed. Ruin rework was a nerf. Hex perks are all useless anyways, ruin wasn't the issue. Bubba didn't get much of a buff, he wasn't a problem to begin with. "Some Killer Perks Being buffed"? Mindbreaker buff was nice, hopefully we see more of that. Pyramid head's nerf was un-merited. Freddy rework was needed and he's still a bad killer that you can just ignore since all he can do is m1. The new killers except for Pyramid head are all bad, and barely make B rank.
Survivors are still enourmously overpowered. Especially since you just rambled off small balance changes, where a majority were un-needed, or didn't fix the problem. Dev's are really good at band-aid fixes, and public speaking. The public speaking is when they make a change to something that doesn't actually matter and then tells the community "this is to fix this" when THIS was never apart of the problem in the first place. Instead of taking the rotting fruit out of the kitchen, they gave you a flyswatter to deal with the fruit flies.
Survivors are always going to be too powerful until the Dev's stop pandering to them. Nerf them straight up, not "balance changes" giving them buffs as well. Like when they went to "nerf toolboxes" they increased the repair speed - not making much of a difference, but that didn't matter because the toolboxes WERE NEVER THE PROBLEM.
I think the funny part is you just listed off the exact same things that other people keep repeating every time people talk about the power struggle Killers have. A whole lot of fake-outs, and BS that didn't actually help the situation at all. This is what i mean by the whole Killer VS Survivor argument is like Warner Bros w/ Johnny Depp, and Amber Heard. While the Survivors are the crazy Amber Heard Fans.
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Show me when those streamers said survivors were too powerful. I watch some of those streamers and I haven't heard them ever say that survivors were too powerful, at least in this day and age.
There isn't really a power role in the game, the power role in DBD is which ever side plays better than the other. Survivors most certainly don't control the game right now, there have been many, many nerfs since DBD's release that have weakened survivors considerably, and there are many more to come like the Ormond rework and Autohaven rework.
That's a massive assumption, its impossible for anyone to play "perfectly." Lets assume however there was a perfectly balanced map and the survivor and killers didn't have any perks or addons, and the killer was also someone who was also pretty good but not overpowered. If the survivors and killers play at the same level and somehow play perfectly, then yes, the survivors will win most, if not all the time. It takes a lot more effort than you think for 4 people to play absolutely perfectly with each other, and for each one to also perform absolutely perfectly by their selves also takes a ton of effort, so its obvious as to why they would always win against the killer. I'm not saying that the killer isn't putting any effort in, but the survivors are putting in more effort than the killer.
Survivors do have many 2nd chance perks, but many of them are necessary to have in the game. DS is the only anti tunnel perk in the game, and even then its not even that great of an anti tunnel perk. UB is the only consistent anti slug perk in the game (Soul guard requires a hex). Borrowed time is the only consistent anti camp perk in the game. Some of these are required to balance the game, just like some killer perks.
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They don't even win that often. The only reason they win so much is that they understand the game inside and out, but their opponents aren't. That's not because of their perks. That's because of matchmaking. You should watch them talk about DS. Might learn a thing or two
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The power role should always be the Killer. Period. That's the whole point of a 1v4. That's the whole point of this being a casual game and not a competitive game.
In a perfect match the survivors and killer would all be using perks, add-ons, items, and offerings. Without them it wouldn't be perfect. It only takes 2 survivors in a match playing well to ensure all 4 escape - that's not good. It only takes 1 - 2 person swf to completely negate a Killers existence, which is also very much not okay. Fungoose mentioned this on Sunday or Monday - you can go back and watch the streams.
DS never was intened, never was, and never will be an "anti-tunneling" perk. It is, inteneded, and forever will be a perk to "extend a chase". Which is also why it's being looked at to be - nerfed, because survivors have been abusing it for immunity and to get away with performing unsafe saves. Same with Unbreakable it's not a "anti-slug perk". Both of these perks are not required to balance the game. A perk that is required to balance the game is like a perk that slows down a primary objective that by default is too fast. For example. Gen speed. Lower base Gen repair speed, and they could remove all the regression perks from the game - and it would make no difference. How it is currently you have to use regression perks to slow the game down so the Killer has a chance to even be viable in the match. Do you have to take DS? No. You don't. There are more than enough pallets in the game for you to run the Killer for over 12 minutes (tested by Otz and OhTofu), and get out without being downed once. You don't need DS. Bad players need DS for the second chance escaping from hook, when they get caught in the first place. This is the same for Dead Hard, and Borrowed Time. Iron Will is a perk bad players use to be able to hide from the Killer mid chase, instead of learning how take advantage of Killer's blind spots. As another example.
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Streamers are not gods of knowledge, they are entertainers and they say what their audience wants to hear.
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Not really. In other games, sure, but in DBD, not at all. Alot of the content creators I mentioned have been playing for a LOOOOONG time, and are very clearly good at the video game. They aren't gods of knowledge, yes, but they know the game better than anyone, especially the devs. Monto can be dismissed to an extent, but Scott Jund, Otzdarva, OhTofu, etc are all VERY credible sources of feedback on the game. I'm not asking you take their word for it. I'm asking for you to listen to them talk about the issue and form your own opinion.
Also, entertainers don't often tell their audience what they want to hear. The channel Unus Annus is proof of that lmao. Space Coconut is one who describes all the bad things in the game, and Scott Jund and I actually had a good conversation on whether or not Ruin/Undying is the best Killer combo. It won't hurt to hear their opinions.
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Even with the nerf to ruin that made it incompatible with SOME regression perks, it's still a very powerful perk and it was necessary to make it not combine with some things like pop, otherwise it'd make for some incredibly overpowered combos, plus before you say that you can remove ruin it can be combined with undying to make sure that it doesn't die in the beginning of the match. The nerf to pop really wasn't that big of a deal, after the nerf to it I used it with Legion, Oni, and Michael Myers to see how good it would hold up, and it still holds up very well, the only thing that I noticed is that if I chased the survivor instead of kicking the gen I wouldn't have that much time to come back to gen and kick it.
Since when did they increase pallets on changed maps? On all the changed maps they either reduced the pallets or took out infinites, which were the overpowered loops I was talking about. Lets take Thompson house for example, there used to be 4 filler pallets around the house itself and the other loops on the map were literally meters away allowing for some broken combo's, but after the change to the map there are now only 2 filler pallets around the map and the loops are significantly further away from each other. Some breakable walls are placed on loops so that it creates infinites, but your also forgetting that when those walls are broken the loop becomes significantly weaker, and sometimes completely useless. If there's a survivor that's just hiding instead of doing the objective then that means they're cucking their team by not doing the main objective.
Even though toolboxes were never really the main problem, they were still a problem. A commodious with some charge addons could be used on 2 gens (At least I believe so) and even thought they do gens much faster then before, they only last for a couple of seconds and compared to before their nerf they complete much less of a gen. Insta-heals shouldn't have existed, but neither should have 5 blink nurse, so what's your point here? There was a removal of overpowered loops (infinites) on the reworked maps, what are you talking about? That was literally the whole point of the change. They removed the iron works infinite, the torment creek infinite, and one other that I forgot. Hook RNG is well, hook RNG. I've had matches on Lery's where there are multiple hooks multiple meters away right next to a basement, likewise I've had matches where there are only 2 hooks in an area. Balanced Landing wasn't the best exhaustion perk but before its nerf it was incredibly OP on some maps, which was a problem. The dev's nerfed BL rather than maps like Haddonfield because reworking maps take way more time to balance out than a single perk, and if I remember pretty clearly that the survivor side of the community complained about the change and would've actually rather they removed the dumb drop downs instead of the perk itself. When I'm talking about the exhaustion nerf, I'm talking about the time where they nerfed it to where exhaustion can't be regained when you run, which was massive. Great skill checks are a problem on gens how? They're literally just a singular percent now, the only way it can be a problem is if the survivor not only gets really good RNG but hits ALL the great skill checks, and even then that's not a skill check problem, that's RNG being the problem.
The Doctor buff was needed, and they did buff him, so what's your point? They improved him significantly. Ruin rework in the beginning was sort of a nerf but now with undying it's one of the strongest combos in the game, especially if your playing with someone like spirit, nurse, blight, Oni, or some other high mobility killer. Hexes are useless? Ok, guess ruin + undying is completely useless and not at all in the meta. How is Freddy of all killers bad?? He's not nurse tier but he's easily A tier killer. With his natural slowdown, strong anti loop, and map pressure he's really good. Sure you can render him as an m1 killer, but that requires you to either fail a skill check, have someone wake you up, or go get a clock, and in all those situations your also helping Freddy out. Your wasting time failing a skill check and revealing your position, after the 1st time waking someone up takes much more time, and running across the map to wake up is also wasting your own time. Dude, I'm seriously not understanding you here. How the hell is Oni B tier? How is Blight B-tier? Otzdarva, which has a considerable amount of time in the game put Oni at the top of A-tier and if you look other streamers play Oni like Tru3 or someone else you'll find that he's incredibly powerful, same thing with Blight.
Survivors are still "enormously" overpowered? How? I've literally brought up so many changes that have occurred to survivors to make them less overpowered. If your referring to top level play, then that's an entirely different situation. High level play and top level play are VERY different. Yeah, I guess the map size reduction, toolbox nerf, Insta heal nerf, infinity removal, and plenty of other killer buffs were all "small balance changes" right? Guess they weren't really needed, might as well reverse them!
Survivors have been flat out nerfed, the hell are you talking about? What additions did the dev's add to the exhaustion nerf? The balanced landing nerf? The Insta heal nerf?
How has anything I've said been a "fake-out" or BS that didn't change the situation at all? And really? Comparing the Johnny Depp situation, which is incredibly serious to a pointless argument like this? How more childish can you get? You don't think there's any toxic or crazy killer mains out there?
At this point I'm nearly 100 percent sure that I'm either getting baited hard, or your so damn incredibly biased that you can't even begin to see the other sides arguments and only acknowledge your own. Every single point I've bought up you haven't properly countered, only saying things like "Well, they needed a buff anyways" or straight up lied, like when you said they didn't remove infinites from maps or didn't have a pallet reduction on some maps. I'm done arguing with you here, its becoming more and more obvious to me that your completely one sided and so much so that you can't acknowledge any arguments the other side has to bring up. Sayonara.
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The power role shouldn't always be the killer. Power roles are just unhealthy for a game because they give one side a blatant and massive advantage to such a degree that it makes the other side have to work significantly more harder in order to barely just win. It doesn't just take 2 good survivors in a match to win everything, it takes all 4 working as a team. One person taking the aggro, one potentially healing someone else or saving them, and the last one doing gens. You ever wonder why its almost considered a lost when someone DC's/Dies early on in the survivor team? It doesn't take 2 good SWF members to negate a killers existence, if your finding that to be the case then that's saying something on how good you are in the game.
DS was always intended to be an anti momentum perk, not a "Extend a chase perk." Of course some people will abuse DS and UB for a minute of invincibility, but strangely enough I haven't ever had a problem with it by itself. When its used by multiple people, then yeah its busted but situations that involve that are really rare, doesn't mean its ok but somewhere down the future there will probably be a fix for that combo. Did you really just say that UB and DS aren't required to balance the game? Its now just become super obvious to me you have never even touched solo queue, let alone survivor. You have never been in a situation where the killer Insta tunnels you and kicks you out the game in a couple of minutes, you haven't ever been in a game where the survivors are slugged constantly with infectious.
Even though there are enough pallets in the game to THEORETICALLY loop the killer for 12 minutes, that's not taking into account mind games, chase heavy killers (Nurse, DS, Spirit) or hell even just regular anti loop killers. Bad players need DS to avoid being farmed off the hook or instantly tunneled? Yeah ok dude. If you need regression perks as killer, than your just bad, just pressure gens 4head! See how stupid I sound? I'm not even gonna touch on that last part, first time I've heard someone say Iron will is for "bad" players. This is my last reply to you, no way your not baiting. If your not baiting, then please, educate yourself and actually play survivor.
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