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So when is spirit gonna get counterplay?
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Yes I did, It says and I quote "Would genuinely like to know when she's gonna get counterplay, currently shes absolutely disgusting."
The counterplay is to bring perks like Quick and Quiet because she cant see you vault windows so she needs to hear you, Iron Will so she cant hear you when you are injured and things like Lightweight and Spine Chill are also good against her.
If you are not willing to change your build to face a killer you have problems with, then you cant ask for nerfs.
She already has strong counters with certain perks, so stop bitching about killers that dont need changes just because you dont want to run a specific build to counter them.
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that makes no sense. bringing perks to help agaisnt a killer isnt counterplay, not too mention a good spirit will still get you anyway considering you still breath, you make an exhale when you vault a window, stridor exists, she can see your scratch marks, hear your footsteps and grass moves.
Why should you have to ruin your entire build to bring 2 perks just to help against (not even counter) 1 killer? stupidest thing ive ever heard
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Oh, I didnt clarify enough. I meant if they fixed the Bug that you were not able to hear her footsteps. This Bug was around a few weeks ago.
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"bring Iron Will" is like the most useless tip, since Stridor exists. I have faced only one Spirit recently who did not use Stridor, but she was using the Fathers Glasses instead.
As long as Iron Will gets countered by Stridor, it is not a counter against Spirit at all.
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Stridor beats Iron Will. The only perk that is even remotely helpful is Q&Q and that's on a 20 sec cooldown and is activated by doing fast actions. Something you are bound to be doing in a chase. Essentially making your "counter" on an unreliable cooldown.
All the other perks like Lightweight and Spine Chill are niche helpers at best (in the Spirit chase countering scenario) since Lightweight makes your scratchmarks start disappearing in 7 seconds but they are still there and still visible and Spine Chill let's you know that she's looking at you. Cool. That doesn't help you at all in a chase because you already know she's looking at you.
Spine chill and Lightweight are great outside of chase when you're working on a generator or something but no one is complaining about that.
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Then why do most killers have to bring Ruin+Undying to have a chill game? Or Bamboozle to counter the never ending loop of Crotus Pren, Autoheaven and ######### like that?
The game is all about bringing perks to counter unbalanced ######### on both sides, so until all the bs the killers have to face everyday gets fixed I dont see why a strong killer, that still has counterplays, has to get nerfed.
Because we all know what happened to Freddy, we all know what happened to The Pig, Billy is nowhere near as strong as he used to as well. All because the devs still listen to people who just complain about things they dont even understand.
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######### happened to Freddy? Aside from making him one of the easiest killers to play and being extremely rewarding?
They (rightfully) nerfed his "forever" addons but aside from that he's still as brainless and easy as ever.
You still have yet to name a counterplay for Spirit that isn't completely stupid or completely countered by something else.
Bamboozle is a perk, that you specifically called a counter, and it does not have a counter to it. You know what does though? Iron WIll.
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That's the part I hate most. I know that is one of the best things you can do against her. Guess what she is gonna do and be proactive.
The worst thing you can do against a spirit is wait to see what she is gonna do (since you can't). You have to always be moving, vaulting, dropping pallets in (hopefully) an erratic manner and hope she doesn't catch on.
And sometimes (or mostly, depending on your experience) she does catch on, and that can be frustrating as hell.
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just be like fingerguns
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You forget people thought Freddy was "too strong" at launch, so the devs nerfed him to the ground and he stayed a useless killer for about 2 years and a half.
This is what'll happen to Spirit if the devs ever nerf her, they wont give 2 shits if she ends up like Freddy, you know why? Because they already got their money from that chapter, they dont need to sell more Spirit DLC, they need to sell cosmetics and the next killer and the next survivor, and they have to work on the next battlepass, they dont have to balance the Spirit, they dont have to care about her the same way they didnt care about Freddy, the same way they dont care about how boring It is to sit on a gen for 80+ seconds, they dont have to fix any of that because that doesnt make money.
So instead of just asking for nerfs that'll eventually make the devs gutter another killer, why dont you guys just adapt, bring other perks and stop complaining?
But no, some people just want everything, right? They want to be able to escape against Freddy, Doc, Billy, Myers, Nurse, Spirit and all the killers, all with the same build, with the same playstyle, just because they are "good survivors" and they think they should be able to counter EVERYTHING a killer does.
MAYBE you are not as good as you guys think you are, MAYBE that Spirit guy is way better than you. I mean, you can go for a pallet and then switch directions, you can drop the pallet as soon as you get there and then vault It, you can bait a window, you can run at her whenever you think she is phasing, you can stop running and start walking to another side, all of those are counters to her power, and you can bring, as I've said, Iron Will and Quick and Quiet which makes It even harder for the Spirit guy, but MAYBE that Spirit guy has faced those counters so many times that he's just predicting what you're gonna do, but you want to nerf the killer because those people are better than you? That's the most disgusting kind of players you can find on any game.
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For some reason it feels like Spirit is BHVR's baby. They don't wanna touch her for some reason. Clearly, if the StAtS have anything to say, Pig needs to be gutted. Pig OP. I vote we just remove Pig.
I think outside outside of the incredibly stupid standing still "mindgame" she's mostly well made. Mostly
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They nerfed him into the ground and then made him significantly better lmao. Did it take time? Yes. Is he significantly better than before? Certainly.
It seems to me like your second point was that the devs don't care about the balance of the game. Which is not true. They may not be very good at balancing, but they certainly try. Meaning they have to care. At least a little bit. For some reason you keep bringing up Freddy like he isn't a top tier killer right now. Again, it took a while but they got him to where he is today.
I'm just gonna point out the obvious killer bias but continuing on to your next point about how all survivors wanna be able to escape *insert killer here*. Uh, do you know how chases work in this game? There's supposed to be interaction between survivors and killers, that's the point of chases. Chases are about outplaying your opponent and when your opponent has no realistic way of being outplayed then it's just stupid. Which is why killers complain about DS + Unbreakable.
Nurse has the counter of breaking LoS and her power being difficult to use and punished harshly on failures. Spirit has, again, no realistic counter. Every "counter" you just mentioned is completely void if injured. You keep bringing up Iron Will and as I've said, that's countered by Stridor so that's again, not a reasonable counter.
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Have the correct perks. Hope she doesn't. Or just hope the Spirit isn't 'good' enough to have their audio so cranked they can hear footsteps.
I had to stop playing her. She was disgustingly easy to 4K even against good teams with. No challenge.
inb4 "just stop running mid chase lol" you don't play Spirit if thats your advice. I WILL HEAR YOU. And theres nothing you can do about it.
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It's strange how so many people are willing to accept Spirit's lack of counterplay and interactive gameplay in favour of 'well survivors are also imbalanced and blah'. There's already a killer that can stomp 99% of teams that has clear counterplay and definitely has power in games, and that's Freddy. Freddy is insanely strong. Freddy has even more map pressure than Spirit. He only lacks the unpredictable factor. Yet nobody is saying Freddy is /broken/. He is horribly oppressive against generic solo teams, sure, but it doesn't mean he can't be reliably countered with skill and knowledge.
Spirit is just absolute crap and Stridor counters the perk that gives survivors a chance (relying on a specific perk to have a chance against a killer isn't a counter, it's a big flaw in design). And yes, survivors have a few things that are with little to no counterplay, and these things have been complained about countlessly. This isn't the place for another DS-UB rant. This is about Spirit and the abysmal gameplay that goes with her, especially in high ranks.
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Agreed. As much as I hate Freddy now and how low effort I consider him, I can still see what he's doing and attempt to use my skills as a survivors to outplay him. Against Spirit I have no info. Yet she does. So trying to outplay her is literally just "I'll take a seemingly random action and hope the Spirit player is a dumbass".
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The day they give her actual counterplay is the day I eat my shoe
- Bringing X perk isnt counterplay, you arent countering a killer pick btw
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Im gonna pretend like you dont mean that you are ok if we have to wait 2 years and a half to get Spirit to be good again if they ######### her up, which they will.
With that out of the way, we can agree that all the counters I've specified are at the same time countered by the Spirit player, that's curious, you know how a killer counters some loops? By moonwalking, so the survivor can expect that moonwalk and counter It, right? That's survivor skill, but when Spirit gets you down by countering your counters to her power, "oh that's so broken" you guys just cant accept when someone is better than you, can you?
And btw, yh Im sooooo killer bias... Why dont you go around my profile and see how many times I've defended survivors and how many times I've gone against killers? Im one of the first people who wanted the Legion reworked when he was released because that really didnt have counterplays, I've been defending BT since I've been around, I've complained and bitched about dead zones in maps like Autoheaven and some Mcmillan variants, I've allways said gen speeds are good as they are now, but yh, Im sooo killer bias... I defend that the Spirit doesnt need any more "counterplay" as you guys call It when you clearly want a nerf, because she doesnt need It. That's It. I play both roles unlike many other people around these forum, Im red ranks on both sides and Im sure what Im talking about because I see both sides.
But anyway, I honestly dont give a ######### if you or anyone else changes their mind here, Im just writing all this so that somehow the devs see all the pros and cons regarding these conversation and somehow understand that it's not good for them to start nerfing a killer that is already at a good spot on the tier list.
We are allways gonna have strong and weak killers, why should we get them all to be mediocre at best? Yes the Spirit is strong. Does she have counterplay? Yes she does. Does she need anymore? No she doesnt.
Is the Legion strong? No. Does he have counterplay? Yes he does. Does he need anymore? No he doesnt. But no one is complaining about Legion counterplay right? Because he is easy to counter. People just complain about Spirit because she is a little harder to counter. That's It.
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"No one is complaining about LEgion" the complaints about Legion literally never stopped. Still by far the most boring killer to play against in DBD.
It seems like your idea of counterplay is either "hope the killer is bad, survivors skill should have no say" or "just gen rush lol". Which are boring styles of gameplay for both sides. Or are you going to pull up Tru3 already disproven counterplay video that literally doesn't even work for him in livestreamed games?
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You missed the charts they showed a month or two ago. Here’s the kill rates for games with a red rank killer. (The kill rates are higher across the board than the All Ranks chart since this Red Rank Killer chart includes games that had lower rank survivors.)
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Yeah but these don't really mean much. There's way too many variables to consider. What add ons were used, what map were they on, were the teams good or bad (one bad survivor can snowball a whole match). The fact that Micheal is next to Spirit or Legion being above Huntress should speak volumes.
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Wait cmon Aven didn't you know? You need Iron Will + Off The Record for stridor counter, Spine Chill, Fixated, Quick and Quiet, Dance with Me, Inner Strength, Sprint Burst, a perk to force an obsession, Kindred, and Bond. Just use the perks 5head, all off them at the same time. Spirit's not problematic just use some perks
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Nah not fine. I want the game to have strong killers but I'd delete Spirit in a heart beat if I could. Unfun and unbalanced with a low skill floor that still can net you easy kills because of how dumb the killer is.
Nurse main btw not that it matters but I have a bias obviously. If a killer is going to be strong you should need something aside from a decent pair of headphones to be good.
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Yeah? Than maybe you could post a clip or 2 of your claim? Take us all to school. What rank are you by the way?
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If survivors could see which killer they were facing then I would be more comfortable versing spirit. But that will NEVER happen.
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Guessing, because you don't have any information from the killer, is NOT a skill. It's not counterplay either. It's flip-a-coin play.
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"Nurse main btw not that it matters but I have a bias obviously. If a killer is going to be strong you should need something aside from a decent pair of headphones to be good."
Thank you
This is why I have such a problem with Spirit and Freddy currently. Any idiot can throw on slowdown perks and nothing but a top tier SWF or them being literal trash can stop them.
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the walls is what helps mindgame.
that’s just like saying “make me a coffee without any coffee beans” it’s literally a vital part of a survivors success
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Shes already got it if your smart enough to use it..strider can be dabated but yhats the perk not spirit..plus tbh iron will exists as well
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Scott uses half baked data for his experiments
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What consistent counterplay does she have then?
Pretty much every spirit uses stridor and being forced to use a certain perk in order to have a chance against a killer is bad design
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I don't use iron or strider yet I can do great as and against her both ways, so if I can do it I'm sure others can too, and of course spirits will use it..I personally don't like how it messes with my distance gauging but when iron will makes her so much harder to play you can't blame them..as for counterplay..its the same counterplsy as if the killer was behind a wall, baits, feints, using her lack of collision , fire barrels and gens to mask footsteps, spine chill, q and q, dance with me, I know a thing or two about spirit my friend
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it used to be that you could hear her footsteps and see her move grass when she was phasing but that broke when the oni was added to the game so almost a year ago
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You clearly missed the whole point and tbh I'm too lazy to have to explain it simply.
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I know what I said, I just think if you didn't understand it how it was worded, you wont understand any other way, so it doesn't really matter. I think everyone else did tho.
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Nurse has proper counter play, a high skill floor and a high skill ceiling and she's fun to play against (For most people)
Spirit barely has any notable counter play aside from rush gens, a low skill floor to pick up and most people do not have fun playing against her because she can AFK to mind game.
There are plenty of tactics to play around a Nurse from your movement to line of sighting and reading her blinks by paying attention to how long she charges blink as well as what direction she is facing. She takes a while to pick up properly and an even longer time to master. However the rush of outplaying a Nurse is amazing.
With Spirit the most basic stuff everyone hates about the killer is at the lowest skill level of play for her. You can sit still to mind game, there's no tell when she is phasing and most of the time it's a guessing game for the survivor because even audio wise you can't really tell pin point where she is. However Spirit can track you perfectly if they listen. The only true counter to this is Iron Will and a few other stealth perks and those are countered by things like Stridor. Since Spirit is so strong it doesn't exactly hurt her sacrificing a perk slot to constantly have a counter to one of her only counters. She's also really good at chase, patrolling the map and denying areas.
If anyone has the suggestion of "Just do gens" to counter a killer then the killer is broken. Every killer should have some sort of small counter to their power that needs to be thought out to properly perform and in fact most killers do. Spirit does not unless you like gambling away your life. At the moment the only true counter I can think of with Spirit is camp a pallet at a long loop and hope the spirit guesses the wrong side or abuse a semi infinite window. Pretty much map RNG is the only thing that is going to determine if a spirit will do well or not and I'd like to see someone prove me wrong on that when it's good spirit vs good survivors.
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Pretty much never seen people complaining about oni.
Only about the scalped topknot addon
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Deathslinger I'm on the fence about but I feel that he's not threatening enough to need nerfs. Can he be annoying with the fake outs on shooting? Yeah a bit but that's literally all he has. You can literally outrun him otherwise I wouldn't touch him honestly. He can be faked out with movement but it's harder to do. Also Demon as in Oni? Who is complaining about Oni? Oni is near perfect.
Right now the only two killers I feel need reworks because of their gameplay is Spirit and Hag. Granted I am extremely biased against Hag because it encourages boring gameplay and only a select few play her right (Similar to the Bubba issue) but this thread is about Spirit for the most part.
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Base Oni is absolutely fine, maybe even a little weak. Pay no mind to people that complain about him. Now PTB Oni was some #########.
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I'll never understand why there's so much hate for spirit. She's fine we need strong killers. If you really hate going against her so much bring iron will that will still help in chases even if they have stridor. But so people will not change there meta builds.
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Strong killers are good if they're fair and the strength comes from outplaying survivors.
Spirit is not in that class.
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My stance on Hag is she's fine when people know how to play her instead of just camping but everyone chooses the easy route on playing her. This was the issue with Bubba because that's all he was good at and too many people are used to that and just stick to that tactic.
Regarding Spirit that's the only killer I feel is fundamentally broken and unfun to play against. With Hag at least a Hag can make the game fun with Spirit it's basically "Is there Spirit good or bad" and that determines who is going to have fun that game.
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She is fair to go against though. You can still out play her in loops or by dropping the pallet early. We don't need killers like nurse who have a frustating high skill ceiling. Killers need to stay simple. Until they start balancing both sides a bit better, spirit should not be touched imo.
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Yep I agree. I still express my thoughts but I'm pretty sure there's nothing they can realistically do in either case. It's just the concept of the killer being the issue is all. With Spirit though they can probably figure something out that's fair for both sides as a compromise. Likely bringing back the one auditory bug which made it possible to track Spirit while she is phasing. Still needed survivors to pay attention but still.
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She is fine.
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You forget they nerfed spirit before and she still remained the 2nd best, arguably best, killer in dbd. Lmao
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Sounds which are equivalent to pin point tracking. It's not hard to follow and travel towards a noise.
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No, BS is never fine
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She has plenty of counterplay.
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FYI the person I replied to was complaining that the devs hadn't recently stats in a long time. I was posting this recent chart since they apparently hadn't seen it.
Those variables average out over thousands of games. For instance all the killers will face good or bad teams with the same probabilities, none of those statistics are going to be significantly skewed by one of the killers having "worse survivors" than another. Similarly for maps, all the killers have the same maps in the same ratios when you look at a large number of games.
That's not to say the kill rates in that chart are the full story. Nurse is the lowest kill rate but that's because she's by far the hardest killer to learn. (Similarly Blight is a little easier to pick up initially than Nurse but has a very high skill ceiling as well.) And I would argue that some killers may be particularly good against average survivors but not as good against top tier survivors. For example, I suspect Pig's Stealth and head traps work best against survivors who don't have great situational awareness and who don't understand some of the subtleties of how the traps work, which I think could explain why Pig is fourth on the Red Rank chart but second on the All Rank chart (she's getting a boost from her performance against mid-rank survivors but falls behind a bit against red ranks.)
So yes, this chart is only a partial story, but it's not meaningless.
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You do realise that you still can't see each other when she phases.
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