A baseline anti-tunneling mechanic to replace DS
New Mechanic: Fear
Upon being unhooked, gain the fear status for 100 seconds.
If you are put into the dying state, the fear duration is paused for 15 seconds.
When you are picked up by the killer, instantly convert each remaining second of fear into 1.33% wiggle progress (instant escape if you have 75 seconds of the status remaining).
Certain events will calm you, erasing the fear status.
- Starting repairs on a generator
- Starting a cleanse action
- Entering a locker
- Being restored to the Healthy state
- Another survivor being hooked by the killer
- Another survivor being unhooked
DS Changes
Reworked. No longer grants a skill check based grasp escape if you have been unhooked in the last minute.
Now increases the conversion rate of Fear to Wiggle progress to 1.5/1.75/2% wiggle per second of remaining duration (instant escape if you have 66.6/57.14/50 seconds of the status remaining)
Comments
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You can't build in an anti tunnel power into EVERY survivor until 12 hooking becomes viable.
This would just make the game incredibly hard against SWF groups and people who split gens on big maps.
Maybe if the game was actually balanced along side this then that'd be ok.
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Or just don't tunnel.
Go for someone else.
Don't open the locker.
Slug.
Patrol gens.
There are many ways to avoid DS.
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1. You can't always just avoid "tunneling". DS can 100% activate even when you aren't tunneling.
2. What if I already went for someone else and now the DS user is working on a generator? Do I leave them alone and let them do the gen? Yeah, jUsT sLuG, but why should an anti-tunnel perk activate when I'm not tunneling?
3. So, let them get away for free, even if I'm not tunneling.
4. Unbreakable exists, you know? DS/Unbreakable is a very common combo.
5. Patrol gens, then I find a Survivor. Little do I know, they still have DS up. So, what now?
All of these ways to "avoid" DS don't work against Survivors who abuse it.
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I only get hit by DS in like, super serious SWF groups generally; and that is because they often take similar looking characters intentionally to try and make you get DS'd by accident.
The only thing I even think about sometimes, is that maybe it should not work if you are grabbed from a locker; because that's just weaponizing a defensive perk and that seems a bit odd.
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i feel like this list is just missing: When you're unhooking a survivor. as one of its disabling factors.
As it shouldn't come to your surprise that survivors weaponize DS to auto win hook stand offs or chain DS unhooks to have a comeback in a game they have misplayed horribly.
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When the game is balanced around the killer being able to get 12 hooks and survivors dont win the game in 3 minutes by literally holding a singular button, i dont care if a killer than tunnels literally explodes and gives survivors an automatic victory and 50k BP while getting deranked and banned for 5 minutes... But the game isn't balanced like that, so whatever killers do to make the game easier on themselves, as scummy as it may be, is fair game...
Nothing a killer can do comes even close to being as easy as repairing a generator.
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yes lets just make it so the surviors win, the killers can never get good points, nor can they even get good emblem status. lets put this in as well as this PRO killer base buff for ALL killers. only one generator may be worked at any one time (no more 3 minute games) and only one survivor can be on that gen. the other survivors must either hide or distract the killer from interrupting the one on the gen. when a survivor jumps off that gen, another can get on the gen that was just vacated but the other gens are blocked for 10 seconds, and the one left is automatically regressing.
There that'd be a nice pro killer base buff! and let you keep your 100 second insta-wiggle free base buff for survivor. You thought only of the survivors, not of the killers in that buff. yes you included the cancel it bit but still 3 minute matches are a thing so you didn't address that, you didn't address the survivor that throws themselves at the killer right off the hook. You didn't address the fact that this still gives the survivor (now) more than 1 gen, almost 1.75 gens of freedom to run around and harass the killer. this includes flash lighting the killer, palleting the killer leaping windows and pallets not broken to make lots of noises. I hope this shows you how your idea though you think it's balanced is NOT. 100 seconds is way too long, you can do a lot of things in 100 seconds... look what was said about pop! and how DS got overlooked and you just showed how DS was overlooked though so thank you for that.
Killers have to be almost 100% on target. here is a list of killer perks that are 2nd chance perks: blood warden, noed. survivor second chance perks: DS, Hope, Adrenaline, Borrowed Time, Unbreakable, For the People, Flashlights (yes it's an item, but it IS a second chance item for the saves, I will not include the pallet because of a pallet save but that is EXTREMELY situational!), no mither (yes it allows you to get up multiple times), Soul Guard (allows you to get up multiple times if affected by a hex), Soul Survivor (included because as you let your other survivors die, it blocks detection perks so though a good play for you but actually a bad play for the team), Left behind, (hatch location offerings as that tells you where your exit is BEFORE the match occurs)
I might have missed 2-3 killer 2nd chance perks, and I might have left some survivor 2nd chance perks as well... just can't think of them. so once we give killers the same ammount of 2nd chance perks then by all means lets address ideas to stop killers from doing something that is in their interest (tunneling one person out as they honestly can then pressure the other survivors into bad plays that they can't recover from and fewer people to work together on gens or split apart to do gens solo). tunneling is NOT against the rules so why is everyone so dead set against it? because you want the win, that's why. tunneling does not always get the same result as you might think and sometimes it DOES hamper the killer if not done with thought. Also have you ever gotten off a hook, started moving to a gen and suddenly the killer walks around the map from the opposite direction from the hook? who's being tunneled there? NO ONE! it just happened you walked right into the killer.
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At this point, I don't even care if DS or something like it becomes basekit. I'm tired of being forced to use a specific perk on every single survivor. 2 for me: DS and Spine Chill. And you could argue Dead Hard, Borrowed, and Unbreakable too, but that's 5 in total.
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You realize this is a nerf to survivors... right?
This mechanic is a version of DS that is moderately better at stopping Tunneling, but can only work against tunneling.
If you do anything to progress the game, you lose the buff.
If you hide in a locker, you lose the buff.
If there is a more recent hook/unhook, you lose the buff.
Hell, even if they have the buff, if it's been 59 seconds post-unhook, all they get is half their Wiggle Bar, rather than DS's instant escape.
The only cheese I can think of is when somebody pulls off a Kobe and there's nobody else left to reset the buff off of, but that's an easy fix; add another condition to remove the buff if you're the last survivor.
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if you do nothing to progress the game you loose the buff in 100 seconds. in that time you can do things that do not progress the game hoping the killer will do something stupid. and thus this is now able to be weaponized just like DS is already.
1/2 the wiggle bar is more than none of it. your ideas are survivor sided with some of the ideas that people put out there to drop ds when a survivor works on it. this is actually something you WANT as a survivor. because now you can be a weapon and harass the killer and let your survivor friends do gens in peace... btw 3 people on a gen without proove thy self is approximately 44 seconds in length. 100-44 = 66 = 44= 22 so they could essentially do 2.5 gens together in that 100 seconds! how is that NOT a buff to a survivor? I was being quite sarcastic in my response till i started talking about what a survivor could do with your idea.
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How about if you face camp or tunnel even once all xp earned vs that Survivor is removed.
And if you continue to do it you go into the negatives so bp is actually removed from your pool.
And if you don't have enough bp in bank to pay the balance it's removed from your level, removing ranks from characters you've already spent bp on.
That's sort it out pretty damn fast.
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No.
Sometimes, camping a guy is either the best or only viable play you can make.
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Literally everything you just said is wrong.
- "Do things that do not progress the game" like what, pray tell? Is it clicking a flashlight at the killer like an ineffecutal dipshit? I bet it's that.
- Half is more than none... but it's less than an instant escape, WHICH IS WHAT THEY CURRENTLY HAVE.
- No, you literally CAN'T be a "Weapon". You can do it on LIVE with DS SOLELY BECAUSE you can do anything you want for the 60 second duration of DS. On this system, you CAN'T do ANYTHING without losing this buff. This means the only way you can be a "Weapon" is if the killer has an IQ of fifteen and chooses to chase the survivor who is literally occupying themselves.
- The situation you describe is not possible. If one dipshit is trying to hold onto their fear, the killer just ignores them and chases somebody else. This means there are only two people left who can work on gens.
- You don't even have to wait 100 seconds. It's not DS, it's only effective if it triggers with a lot of remaining duration. If there's only 30 seconds left, the only way you escape is through Sabo, Bodyblocks, FlipFlop/Breakout, or extreme greed.
- Even if you did need to wait 100 seconds for the effect to fade on its own, you can force it to fade immediately by hooking somebody else.
Literally just don't tunnel and this effect will not matter.
That doesn't work with DS because it's so overpowered, but there's so little you can do without losing this buff that unless the killer actually goes for you twice in a row, you ain't getting ######### out of it.
It's anti-tunneling, it's only use is for anti-tunneling, and in the event that somebody finds a way to use it other than anti-tunneling, one more cancellation condition can easily be tacked on.
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Survivor mains like to pretend that tunneling is not a legit mechanic and needs anything to be done about it at all. You've been given perks to help like DS and BT. The point is that you must use a perk slot for tunneling protection. This is intended as you are not owed that protection.
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How is Hope and Adrenaline second chance perks lol They reward u for doing the objective unlike NOED, and NM and SS? haha u are funny. And if the killers has at least a braincell won't fall for a flashlight save.
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Tunneling is a pretty annoying thing that should be discouraged in the base game, regardless of perks.
I don't think it should be actively punished, but I think the game should be designed such that spreading hook states is the best strategy, since games that go to 9-12 hooks are fun for both sides and should be encouraged/balanced around.
I can get behind perks that assist in helping survivors avoid getting tunneled, and BT isn't too far off base there, but DS is just beyond the pale.
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If you are downed and adrenaline pops, don't you get back up? That would be a 2nd chance. As killer your objective after gens are done is to prevent escape so you haven't failed just yet.
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if it is so fun why do survivors go for the gen rush? (they crank gens and grank gens forgetting about everything else) it's because they don't want to let it go 9-12 hooks. they want the quick 15K and out, meanwhile killer gets the quick 10-20K max on gen rush (20K is litterally lucky as hell here) and a depip then the 5-10 minute wait (in general) which is why many have taken to stop playing killer for the time and playing survivor making survivor wait times just as long! I wish they'd play lets have fun and enjoy a match but that would be farming to many survivors and they hate that and will disconnect and complain they have to be banned for 5 minutes on the first one! I do agree long fun matches are the best.
to answer your questions:
1) Yes that is one thing, annoying the killer like leaping across the same pallet 10 times in a row, hopping in and out of a locker multiple times, anything to get the killer to notice them instead of the others working on gens. so now you know there are multiple things you can do to annoy the killer trying to get the killer to down them and forget about this "mechanic" so they get that free easy escape and the sweet blood points.
2) You don't play killer much at all, in 9 seconds 3 survivors can down 3 hooks and cause someone that has that 1/2 wiggle bar to get free because there are no hooks around. (rounded 2.5 seconds up) even with one or two it can get that person off the shoulder just because. again you want that FREE easy escape.
3) Weaponizing the feature or perk is as simple as anything. distract the killer enough to forget it exists and have him pick you up and blamo you're out becuase instead of 50 seconds going by you had 10 total and blammo that's 90 seconds left when downed, and that's a free weaponized escape because you ran at the killer, blocking him and blocking his swings to other survivors. this is weaponizing in either case.
4) i guess you know every single killer's mind that they will always know what is going on and that the survivors won't place the one with this "FEAR" in a place of danger to monopolize on it. hell I had survivors that decided they didn't like my game play (randos) and they gave my position away to the killer intentionally. why can't survivors exploit this? oh you'd never do such a thing would you? this is me laughing because you're being intentionally dense.
5) oh we don't have to wait for 50 seconds??? oh yea you going to put a timer on the killer's hud so they know how many more seconds are left so they KNOW not to pick up? oh no you want them to pick up. again you are being intentionally dense!
6) oh yea so each survivor will come present themselves to be hooked just because the killer wants to? you are smoking something and need to stop because again there will be weaponization just like DS is weaponized now. (DS: oh yea i have ds, i'm going to jump in this locker because he's just about to swing but this'll cause him to open instead! wow such a big brain play!)
Yes you put in the big bullet points but conveniently left out the counters for the ways it could be weaponized and it WILL BE. I even said so. you still didn't address that.... oh have you ever tried watching for gen skill check/heal skill check misses when people are constantly vaulting a pallet or leaping a window when they aren't being chased??? no this is no solution it's even WORSE than a solution it's purely a way to make people see the small points but miss the big picture. Play killer much more and you'll learn. the rules do not preclude tunneling and there is NOTHING in the game that penalizes it. (DS is not an anti-tunneling perk as stated by the devs but people like you love saying it is one. however it is a second chance perk)
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now if you are the one that did no gens, and you have adrenaline and are downed or injured, are you not rewarded for doing nothing but riding someone else's coat tails? same thing with hope.... no mither lets you get downed and then get back up and do this repeatedly. Soul Survivor rewards you for letting your team die. one dead, you get x meters where killer can't see you on detection perks, two dead that's y meters, and three dead is z meters (can't remember the numbers) and I EVEN explained that in the post you obviously don't remember saying that a SS user could intentionally let their team die just to get the benefit, so it is a second chance in that they can move without impunity stealthily. sure take SS off, survivors still have a good 4-6 times the second chance perks than killers. also flashlights can be gotten in many ways becuase not always will the survivor go down where you can predict a flashlight will be, nor a wall to prevent the flashlight when picking up. there are SWF's that specialize in setting that up intentionally. you might want to read first, then understand and finally THINK about what you've read before replying.
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Well, you can, but it needs to be first hook only. DS is not an anti-tunnel mechanic, its more meant to be an anti-removal mechanic.
As for the game being balanced, it currently isnt due to undying and ruin making literally every ######### build viable and hard carrying killers who dont know how to deal with loops. DS is relatively balanced, but does need a guaranteed use to deactivate the perk for killers who dont tunnel(like an automatic health state after 60 seconds, also prevents slugging). DS being essentially RNG for killers and it's potential to flip the EGC is the problem with DS, DS reaching the EGC should require a survivor to never tank a hookstage for their teammates to keep its power, which is a very risky play and can backfire.
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As has been said many times before in many threads: The game can't support more anti-tunnel tech. At a certain point it causes everything to fall apart because the survivors have no reason to actually avoid the killer and can just 'force' gens through on them.
Devs have confirmed this, and we have a fantastic case study in how this mechanic would actually probably kill DBD in the form of Deathgarden, which enforced anti-tunnel and became impossible to balance as a result because without the psychological back and fourth of wanting to rescue at any cost/defend at any cost the game just became this mush where one side had all the advantage. Deathgarden actually made 'hooking' survivors so unattractive that people just slugged, and when they made tunneling worse than it already is that is exactly what happened in DBD.
At a certain point, survivors actually need to display some skill and show they understand how to do a good rescue and how to punish camping to stop tunneling. You gotta earn the right to take that survivor's life back from the killer, or there is no game.
This game has player elimination. Its kinda a core feature of the game that the killer really wants to find an efficient way to eliminate a player. Survivors... gotta deal with that, because without player elimination we get Deathgarden. NO ONE wants this game to become Deathgarden because it will absolutely die. Bad play means you are eliminated and either have to join a new match as a solo or watch your friends as a SWF. That is just the cost of playing this game, and survivors can't complain that the core feature that makes interacting with the killer spooky or trying to rescue under their nose a bad idea is working as intended.
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Man I kinda feel the same way about Borrowed Time
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Just eat the [BAD WORD] DS!
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Can y'all imagine how ######### OUTRAGED survivor mains would be if there were a perk as strong as DS for killer?
If you repair more than 1 gen in 3 minutes, one of them goes back to zero. And on top of that, you have to respect every single killer even if you don't know if they have it or not.
It's insane y'all even asking for base kit DS lmao this game and its playerbase are absolutely gooone.
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I don't mind this idea. I'll take a better look tomorrow and see if it seems abusible.
I'd only change 2 things:
- The instant escape mechanic should be removed.
- DS rework: If you get unhooked you have the endurance status effect for 15 seconds.
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All of these killers trying to think of ways to avoid DS... don't immediately go after the person who just got unhooked, if you can't avoid them for 60 seconds then what are you doing?
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Or just slug em! Your under no obligation to avoid people being unhooked sloppily, and DS doesn't change that!
Even if they have unbreakable a slug is still good pressure, though I admit the interaction between DS and unbreakable is not ideal and perhaps making it so you can only use one or the other (perhaps classify them plus other 'get out of jail' perks as 'heroic' perks where if you use one they all disable) would be ideal. If your in a position to eat a DS your USUALLY in a position to slug and then go after the rescuer, which lets you pressure 3 survivors at once usually (The person you chase, the person you slugged, the person who needs to pick up the slug). Your basically forcing someone else to pick up that survivor FOR you, and if you can 'corral' the rescuer well you can keep the chase around the person you suspect has DS to make it unrealistic for them to get revived.
DS doesn't actually stop you from properly capitalizing on a sloppy rescue. What it does is reduce the reward from 'game ending' to 'still pretty darn good.'
Also I can't believe I am defending DS but hey they managed to turn that perk around HARD from being an awful bit of garbage that totally inverts the power structure of the game to a pretty fair perk that killers have a lot of power to turn into a nothingburger. Its almost the survivor equivalent of a hex totem in that you can very easily nullify that perk slot now at the cost of a very minor time penalty, its real neat.
Obviously DS is really annoying when it hits, and it compounds OTHER problems in the game like exit gate teabagging, but it itself is actually a relatively healthy mechanic now. I will champion killer playability issues all day every day, I saw the DARK TIMES and I know what killer mains are up against morale wise. But this ain't it.
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Fortunately, I run into DS issues only once in a blue moon, and I never resort to slugging to avoid DS, because I don't immediately go for the unhooked survivor, as I've usually already started a chase with someone else or am in the midst of a chase, so I rarely run into an instance when I find the same person again within 60 seconds. 🤷
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*laughs in Executioner main. At survivor's DS's*
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The killer can still tunnel and slug. If he downs another survivor then hooks them your day will be absolutely useless.
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You shouldn't be at the hook to boot. You're the reason DS exists 😂
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DS rework. If in the killers terror radius and it never goes away and picked up, hit skill check for auto map escape. Make DS even more brutal for camping scumbags. Everyone keeps saying they can't avoid it, I'm sorry they suck, that's not on survivors. If we can't DC we need stronger reasons to stay in matches with ######### killers period!
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I am guessing you don't play killer much if you think the killer doesn't have any reason to be near the hook...
Like survivors not letting you leave said hook before trying to unhook in your face.
Or they loop you around said hooked survivor when another survivor tries to dive bomb the hook.
Or they lead you back to said hook for whatever reason(Such as getting a pallet stun then trying to dive the hook).
Or...You get the point.
There's a lot of valid non tunnel/camp reasons why the killer would be near the hook.
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Too abusable by swf/ comm squads.
The best way to balance ds is to make it an item and potentially buff it. Should of been an item from the start, honestly. I mean what the hell are beings stabbed with. Is the survivor whispering a very nasty insult into the killers ear when we pick them up and it just wrecks our self esteem?
It wouldn't make DS not powerful but it would make it detectable and open to scarcity as using it runs the risk of losing the item. Also franklins demise.
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Except that situation isn't tunneling... he went for another survivor before trying to hook you again.
Of course it wouldn't stop that. It's not supposed to.
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Literally how is this abusable?
If you try to progress the game, you lose the buff instantly.
If the killer isn't outright tunneling, you lose the buff shortly after gaining it when he hooks another guy.
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Is no one else gonna comment on how 1.33% is not 133%? The way it's written now means you would only get instant escape at 1.33 seconds left instead of 75
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They're not commenting that because my math isn't wrong.
1.33 (repeating) percent progress per remaining second x 75 remaining seconds = 100% progress
If we balanced by your math, giving 133% progress per remaining second, this system would be absurd, granting instant escapes unless the buff had less than 0.75 seconds remaining...
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there's a very simple fix to DS
If you repair a gen, no DS
you get into a locker, no DS
you unhook, no ds
in exchange DS last longer or does not expire while in the killer terror radius
If some surv wont do gen, that's on the survivor not the perk.
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I'm very much in favour of this. The only change I'd make is to add some kind of timer on the affected survivor in the bottom left(Which would be visible to everyone, including the killer). I dunno about your DS perk idea tho.
In my opinion, I shouldn't HAVE to run a perk to be able to counter tunneling. Especially since Laurie is a licensed character. We are essentially saying to new players "Oh you don't like being taken out of the game before you even really had a chance? Not to worry! Just cough up (insert your native currency here) and you can get DS! Oh you don't want to spend money to get something that should be base kit (an anti-tunnelling effect)? Well ######### you then. I hope you enjoy your 2 minute games git!
I would love to see this implemented for a weekend, just like the no bloodlust experiment. To see how it would work in an actual game. I'm sorry you got so many... Unhappy comments... People are often hostile to ideas they disagree with, even if it only pertains to a video game.
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It would be easier if DS just makes users the Obsession after an unhook as a warning.
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Killers wouldn't have to tunnel if it wasn't the META.
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What kinda logic is that?
For one, DS is meta, therefore tunneling couldn't be meta because an anti-tunnelling perk is meta. Also, just because something is meta, doesn't mean you have to use it. I genuinely don't understand the logic on that one, chief. I mean for example, I haven't used ruin and undying in over a month and I've been doing just fine for the most part. (I mainly play pp head but i do play other killers too).
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its 60 seconds, if you tunnel the person with ds active you deserve to get stunned. 1 minute is not make or break + you can slug and just counter DS like any good killer. if 60 seconds is make or break every game or almost every game, git gud.
DS is fine the way it is.
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In situations where you hook someone in EGC, the 60 seconds absolutely is a make or break deal. If they get an unhook because they're healthy and attempt to body block the killer, even if I manage to down the hooked survivor who is the only worthwhile target in this case, they either crawl to the exit or I pick them up and they have me eat a DS and escape anyway. Apart from this, I have no real issue with DS. Though maybe I'd disable it when you're picked up from opening a locker because it kinda doesn't make much sense that a survivor would overpower a killer who has them literally cornered.
No wonder you don't see the logic. You think META means perk choice.
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Something being Meta, if I'm not mistaken, means that is so strong it outshines everything else to the point where it becomes *the* choice for sweating the win. Right?
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at that point you lost the game, move on. ez as that, you cant win them all. Like i said if DS is literally make or break for most of your games you just have to git gud, period.
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12 hooking is viable, just not on all killers, mostly nurse and blight rn
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And every single time that happens I go for the farmer not the one being farmed. It makes no sense to take out the one fresh off the hook, you're playing right into bad survivors hands who'll only tea bag you for 20 mins at the exit gate like they were good and message you about how trash you were.
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The rarity of this is so scarce. You want DS canned because it works as intended 99% of your games but that one game at the very end you lost to it you're mad and want it gone. DS acts as a second hit to one hit wonders like noed, being marked, being chainsawed etc. Most of the folks upset at DS are not even doing full chases, they one hit down camp and get mad ds didn't let their camping work. Stop camping and the egc won't happen to worry about ds letting them out, k Bubba, I'm looking at you!
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