The Way People Play with The Twins Proves an Interesting Point.
TLDR: The Twins are an interesting example of what causes killers to adopt strategies that make survivor experience worse (camping, slugging and tunneling). When a killer is too slow to compete with how fast gens can go if survivors just hold m1, these tactics become way more prevalent.
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So after a day, people are starting to realize that because the Twins are far too slow to keep up with gen speed, the only way to play them effectively is to massively slug and camp, I haven't necessarily seen excessive tunneling.
The reason this is interesting is because it shows a point.
Why do killers slug, camp and tunnel? As much as some survivors like to think that these tactics are adopted exclusively out of malice or a massive lack of skill, I think the issue is more complicated.
Killers do all of this, because it makes the match easier on them, because the normal "patrol, chase, hook" cycle for 12 hooks is completely and utterly unviable with most killers against survivors that do gens. And that's literally all it takes them. If they sit on a thing and hold M1, most killers are going to have a hard time, some of the roster cannot compete at all.
With the survivor objective being the way it currently is, chases become cumbersome, mistakes are not afforded to the killer at all, which then creates a dilemma in the killer's mind. Is chasing this new survivor even worth it, or should I focus on taking this one survivor down and protecting my territory? Should I even try to go to gens when I know I don't have time to patrol, chase and hook, or should I just stay here in my corner defending what I already have? Should I bother trying to give everyone fair chases, or should I just try to keep them all immobilized on the floor so they occupy their teammates time and I can eventually down them all?
When killers are not confident in their potential to play normally, because the character itself doesn't have the tools to let their skill overcome the game pace, or when they know for a fact that they don't have time to play normally, they will inevitably resort to whatever tactics can tip the scales to their favor, which usually makes the experience worse for survivors, because the only thing the killer can do is try to deprive them of gameplay, instead of engaging with them in gameplay. This happens even to the best killer players, or people that are considered generally as very very good.
The Twins is a perfect example of a killer that doesn't have time to play normally. They have decent chase potential with Victor, so all they do is deprive survivors of gameplay by slugging everyone and camping.
The solution to this is not to mega punish camping, tunneling and slugging, as some survivors believe. Doing that will either generate resentment from killers towards survivors, or it will just drive all killers that don't feel they have the tools to deal with game pacing away from the game entirely.
I believe the right solution is to improve game pacing, as well as incentivize going for multiple chases against multiple people, and then we can give survivors the tools to deal with tactics like slugging, camping and tunneling.
There have been a ridiculous number of ideas people have given to resolve the issue of games going to fast, as well as incentivizing multiple chases. This is not the point of this thread. But i believe it's important to recognize the cause of certain less than desirable behaviors so we can then tackle them effectively, instead of just endlessly crying about the most obvious thing in front of us.
Now, of course, some people may think that these kinds of tactics are fine, and that's a fair position to have, but it's undeniable that a sizeable chunk of survivors are very frustrated by them, and it is true that there are killers (myself included) who would rather the game allowed them the time and tools to consistently outplay their opponents over and over again, instead of resorting to tactics that limit gameplay just to have a chance.
Just my 2 cents on the matter... if anyone cares.
Comments
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I’d say it’s not really to deprive survivors of gameplay, it’s the most effective way to play the killer.
its human nature to do anything the most effective way, if you’re able to, why wouldn’t you?
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it's the old adage "given the chance, players will optimize the fun out of the game"...those who care only about winning, not the fun involved, will play whatever the most effective way to get that W is. It's up to the developers to prevent the fun being lost through optimization, or the players to decide fun is more important than winning, to avoid it.
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This post needs to be seen by everyone, as it perfectly describes the problem that has been leading the cycle of toxicity between both sides, as most people blame the other person for being bad/toxic because they want to ruin other peoples fun, or have to rely on "noob" tactics to win, which is an extremely unhealthy mindset to have in any situation, as it leads to toxic stereotypical generalizations ("All SWF survivors want to make the game miserable, all killers are tunneling campers, all survivors want to play the game in easy mode, all Leatherface players camp, all Claudette players abuse skins for a hiding advantage, all Nea players are toxic, all Spirit players are brainless tryhards, Devs are incompetant, players are stubborn dimwits", for some examples).
We need to work together the best we can to solve the problem the best we can, and it all starts with figuring out the causes of these problems, which you fantastically summarize.
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maybe if any given killer a player chose could compete vs high level players, people would be able to play a normal game and go for 12 hooks
gen speed and the constant whining for killer nerfs leads to what you see now. if a brand new killer is made weak as ######### upon release, why expect someone to go for 12 hooks when it's not feasible?
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"its human nature to do anything the most effective way, if you’re able to, why wouldn’t you?"
Because you'd get DS'ed in the face, then you'd come on the forums and complain about it.
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Well said, it seems like the devs had massive oversight issues with this killer.
The twins give a deeper look into how tunneling and the other mentioned things have to be used to create pressure.
Hopefully with the twins exposing how tunneling and slugging is used to counter the current time crunch meta, they'll take a look into it. Then make it fair for both ends of the equation.
But you know, it's BHVR, they'll find a way to screw it up if they do it.
Edit: I would love to be able to say that they'd be able to work with the information this issue is providing. But they have consistently proven that they are unable to do a deep consideration of their mechanics, they say tunneling/camping/slugging is a valid strategy. Yet they also mention how fun something is to go against. But they haven't made the correlation between the two in the four years this game has been active.
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BigToxicMegMain
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I agree with this post. This is why you should not listen survivors when it comes to "UNDYING+RUIN IS OP REEEEEEEE" or "Freddy OP". Killers use these game slowdown perks so that their chasing skill gets rewarded and it allows them to go many more chases as chasing with killer is pretty fun but having issues extreme game tempo for doing so is not fun. Weakening perks like Pop goes weasel or Thanophobia(Slowing healing) and releasing underwhelming perks like Surge or this new Oppression perk or Dying light is not exactly helpful and only makes people run more uniform builds. After they wonder, "Why is ruin used 95% of the time" and its like... um maybe because perks that slowdown generator kinda suck? Killer use perks to slow gamedown to try remedy problem of slow killers that are simply too slow at getting downs for game tempo and if those perk aren't enough to solve the problem than killer will start to use strategies to cut corners.
Ethan made statement in Q&A that he is uninterested in adding new effective perks because he is afraid of power-creep apparently but I doubt the guy who asking about meta perks was asking for powercreep perks, more over he was probably asking for more alternative perk options that are not plagued with braindead drawbacks(Cooldowns, Counter-productive effects such as visual cues on stealth perk), too many conditions(Basic attack, timers,Bloodlust etc.) or ineffective rewards(e.g Furtive chase,Monstrous Shrine, Gearhead etc.) that intentional make the perk worthless. Just another one of those great mystery answers.
Post edited by Devil_hit11 on2 -
in comes the one persistent ignorant killer main using the twins and winning because survivors aren't used to them to tell you that "no get everyone injured and snowball, use victor to keep survivors off gens after you down someone with him, some other strat that isn't time efficient with victor"
meanwhile me and my team just stay in pairs when someone's injured, heal, hold onto victor and stay near a unoccupied gen at a pallet, loop the hell out of the killer, and kick then heal whatever injured survivor we paired with after victor downs them.
na twins strong right? totally don't need just one survivor you can trust with you to either take the victor hit then crush him or heal you when you do it.
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What I'm getting from this post is "I don't like perfectly valid, fun for the killer strategies because they aren't fun for the survivor."
Got it.
Edit: Clarity.
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Shouldn't valid tactics be fun for both ends of the game?
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I have been saying this for a while. The discord is very positive. Apparently you don't need perks to slow gens. And you should be able to hook before 3 gens every time (45s from the start of the game). And all killers are viable.
Obviously this isn't true. Basically if you play a killer with less than rank 3 meta perks specifically for slowing the game down, you're toast in about 5 minutes. You can run to exactly one survivor, down, hook, and lose the first gen. Then run to the next survivor, down, hook, and lose 1 more gen. 2 if you were just a little too slow. Oh and everyone had time to heal as well.
Then you have 4 people completing 3 gens. If they are any distance at all apart, you are toast. You have about 45s before the next gen pops, so you need to kick people off gens. But you can't cover all that ground so you are scrambling just to get at least someone sacrificed, so that's where your rule comes in.
The real problem is, you can't base the game balance around perks, because then the game is by definition unbalanced once perks are not available. Nobody who had not leveled multiple of the correct killers for at least a million blood points is going to be able to play a "fair game". I suspect that with ruin and undying, gen speed is about "fair". So by definition, if you are running without that, or some substitute, then gen repair time is objectively not balanced.
The only real solution is a rebalance starting with significantly increased repair difficulty, and after that, tune ruin etc. Down as necessary. This will make more perk combinations and more killers viable.
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Yeah I'm not a fan of the Twins' playstyle at all. Haven't played against them yet, but I can already tell it's going to be a miserable time.
Such a shame too, they got it so right with Blight, and then one chapter later they got it so "wrong".
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Yeah, if we want killers to go for the 12 hook we need to give them time to do so. As is now, if the survivors can hold M1 and just loop decently, (not even great, just decently) a lot of the cast is going to have a bad time if they try to 12 hook.
I just posted this next line somewhere else: If its effective, its unfun for the other side. If its fun for the other side its weak. There's exceptions but that's the trend.
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Of course. Like I said in the post, Killers don't do these things to purposefully deprive survivors of gameplay out of malice... However, the most effective way to play as killer just so happens to be something that denies them of a gameplay experience. Tunneling, slugging and camping are all effective strategies when applied well by good killers, but they all deny survivors of gameplay in some measure, they prevent survivors from engaging with the game and making plays.
Maybe this is something we should recognize and maybe it's something that would be best changed in some way, instead of just throwing a tantrum at what the other side does. I'm not saying you're doing this btw. I'm just explaining what I feel is the point of my post.
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I honeslty would prefer to completely axe gen slowdown perks entirely and balance the game around more utility based perks...perks like STBFL, Blood Favor, Spirit Fury, Enduring, Brutal Strength, PWYF, Thrilling Tremors, BBQ, Nurses, Monitor...all provide gameplay advantages and can open up different possibilities. Genperks skew the perseption of game length, and basically translate to: survivors hold m1 for longer... I think gens are just a big issue in general. Rui + Undying are necessary in the current meta (i never use them though), but i don't think they're healthy because it's best if the base game is in a good state instead of requiring these perks for decently paced matches.
I would honestly prefer if the game had more base mechanics instead of just adding perks for everything.. but i guess i see where they're coming from. As much as I do appreciate good perks, making some perks to allow for certain niche playstyles for players who would like to engage with them is a good thing for those players. However I absolutely despise the idea of them using that as an excuse to make perks completely ######### useless, like Coup de Grace...######### insult of a perk... Also Shadowborn...what a disgrace to put a QoL option in the form of one quarter of your loadout...this one is embarrassing.
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I think you’ve hit the nail on the head. 4 survivors, with one being chased, one on the hook and one going for the save - basically the way the game “should” go - means that there’s always one person working on gens. And if the unhooked survivor doesn’t bother healing that number quickly goes back up to 3 on gens. And then there’s the fact that you have to build up to that hook-chase-hook-chase flow, and that at the start of the match all survivors are on gens. This is why people have those 5 minute matches where gens seem to pop fast.
As killer you need to incapacitate multiple survivors at a time, or get one guy permanently removed. You don’t physically have the time to win by hooking, chasing, hooking, chasing, in an even rotation. (Well, unless the survivors waste time not doing gens - then you can play more relaxed.) So you either slug or you try to kill one guy fast.
It can be very frustrating to be slugged for a long time or to be tunnelled so it makes sense that people complain about those things. But if the killer wants to get some kills they sort of have to.
I don’t think this is a solvable problem. I think it’s inherent to the game’s design and people need to just accept it. Expect killers to play “unfun”. Expect survivors to “genrush”. You have the tools to deal with these things, so use them or accept that you’ll lose more often if you don’t.
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I engage in all those three tactics whenever I feel I have to. I'm not above them, nor am I judging any killer for engaging in them. I truly believe that given the current state of the game, they are completely valid tactics, and I will not ever presume to speak for what is and isn't fun for other people.
However, what I'm saying is simply that these tactics, quite undeniably, deprive survivors from engaging with the game, and that there is a sizeable chunk of the survivor population who gets very aggravated by them. A survivor tunneled cannot engage with proper chases, for they will always be injured, they cant do totems, save their teammates, do gens, search chests and get goodies... A survivor camped stares at their screen without being able to do anything at all, and a survivor slugged has a similar experience.
For the sake of both sides having the best experience and engagement with the game, regardless of whether they win or lose, I think there should be some changes so that these tactics aren't the most effective way to play killer. I would prefer if survivors have a good time playing too.
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I mostly agree, though, Im not sure it's just a gen speed issue.
Gens are too simple and too safe. They literally consist of holding a singular button on the other side of the map while the killer isn't looking.
Whenever Im having 20 second chases and still gens are popping, I don't feel outplayed. In fact the only thing i feel is "I'm busting my arse trying to outplay and manage these people over and over again and all they have to ######### do is hold M1 to pressure me" It's a frustrating feeling that eventually devolves into contempt during matches and it also devolves into the tactics I mentioned above. Slugging everyone and 1 or 2 hooking everyone is generally easier than chasing everyone at least 3 times, so is tunneling someone early, or camping a specific area of the map, but what is my incentive to make the game harder on myself (impossibly harder with some characters) if all the survivors are doing is "hold m1 for a bit while listening to music"?...
I think the whole system is poorly designed, but then when we get to things like gen slowdown perks, all it translates to from the survivor perspective is "I have to hold m1 for longer now" which also isn't ideal.
It's a complicated issue, and I can't presume to have the answers. I just think the way people tend to think about these issues is a bit misguided or oversimplified, which is why i made the post.
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Thanks for writing this. I always mention these things under every post where a survivor complains about tunneling or camping because it isn't as simply as just being toxic. It is a valid strategy and some killers have to rely on them. I am pretty sure if 12 hooking everyone would be possible, the majority of killer mains would love to do it. It's way more fun to engage in a lot of chases than having a sweat fest every game to win.
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They don't even need to loop, survivors can literally hold W against a bunch of killers in the roster and just drop pallets instantly, and as long as they have a modicum of coordination and they understand that all they have to do is hold M1 you're either gonna lose or have an immensely difficult time.
I said this on another reply, but it's valid here again, what is the incentive a killer player has to make the game harder on themselves by chasing multiple survivors, multiple times, trying to outplay them all individually over and over, if the other side is literally borderline AFKing while holding a button?
Especially when we have killer characters like the twins that are too inefficient with their time to compete with how quickly gens go. It's inevitable that killers will resort to these tactics which in turn will make the experience worse for survivors...and survivors will only see the tactics and not the underlying causes and issues, and then they will come to ask for punishment for those tactics which then creates resentment from killers who feel even more cornered...and it all devolves into a ######### flinging cycle.
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I will say this about your last point, however. It is not our job as players to solve the issue you state is unsolvable. I do believe it is an inherent flaw with the way the game is currently designed and it is a failure in the game design that killers have to play "unfun" and survivors have to "genrush" when played optimally. It's the devs job to see this and come up with ways to alleviate it.
However, as a community it is good to try to think of and articulate these issues in a constructive way. The reason I made this post is because already I see tons of posts talking about grievances with the Twins playstyle, and like most posts decrying tunneling, camping and slugging, they request punishment for the behavior, but never seem to try to analyze why these tactics manifest themselves and what could be a constructive way to tackle them, and if we as a community can't communicate the fact that this is a problem and why it is a problem to the devs, maybe they will never see a deeper issue that needs fixing. Also, if we can't properly communicate these issues with each other, then eventually it all turns into shite flinging...which only builds up resentment.
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I agree with you. Im fairly sure the majority of tunneling, camping and slugging killers do it out of necessity, and it is kind of frustrating to see the posts about it, always asking for punishment instead of thinking about why these tactics exist in the first place.
I would also love to 12 hook everyone and I do, when games are decently paced.
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Ermm there is nothing human nature about that....heck what is "effective" anyway about playing a game
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No.
Just like how running Soul, DS, BT and Adrenaline to attempt to counter me is also valid.
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So correct me if I'm wrong. But what you're saying is that tactics used in the game should not be fun?
How is there any downside to tactics being fun for both survivors and killers?
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Yes, there is. You’d want to use the most effective tactic possible to ensure you win, with this killer it’s to camp and slug as it was designed this way.
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They can be fun, I'm not against it. But it also isn't my job to ensure your fun.
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That would be BHVR's, and they haven't been doing a very good job of it.
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I'd be careful using words such as "fun" to describe problems with certain tactics.
I did mention survivor grievances with the tactics mentioned but they are not the bulk of my argument.
My main argument is, these tactics deny survivors the opportunity to engage with normal gameplay, and they appear in direct response to the fact killers feel incapable of competing with gens by 12 hooking.
It would seem that for a fair bulk of survivor players, this is a problem, and I'd argue that denying players of engagement with the game is not particularly desirable for the devs either. So it should be addressed.
The issue with strong survivor perks like DS, UB, SG, SB, DH, etc, is not that they are "unfun" to verse, although I can admit there are quite a few people who think they are unfun. The problem with these perks, I would argue, is twofold.
-First the fact that their descriptions might as well be switched for "Undo the fact the killer outplayed you or the fact you made a mistake by pressing/holding a button." They give massive, very impactful benefits for a very low requirement from the survivor, usually at the cost of outright undoing a killer play or their own mistake. Who needs to be careful of being out positioned when they have sprint burst ready?
-Second, the fact they can be stacked with one another (and the fact that games go so fast) to create impossible scenarios where the killer has no meaningful choice to play around the perks. Every choice the killer makes is always wrong. Only find the unhooked survivor, eat DS or waste time leaving them and trying to find someone else, they go into a locker, you either abandon them, which wastes your time and gives them free time to do whatever, you eat the DS, in which case you waste time and get directly affected by the perk, or you wait it out on front of the locker, in which case you give 60 seconds x3 to every other survivor, you slug them and they have UB, they get up and do gens, you come back as they get up and have SG, they get a free sprint burst and waste your time. There is no right choice when these are stacked like this, not when the game can be over in 5 minutes or less by design...
Hopefully this clarifies the mentality I have when arguing these issues and why I think arguments from "fun" are not necessarily that useful and sometimes are so open to interpretation that they cause misunderstanding.
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Very good write up, it explains those things better than I could.
Couldn't find a single thing I disagree with.
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Couldn't have said it better myself. I was actually planning on making a post just like this. I think the Twins are good for the game purely because it may make the devs look more towards longer gen times or other objectives (if they are smart). Knowing BHVR, they're probably going to
A.) nerf the twins when they are already weak
B.) nerf slugging in some way
Both of which we DON'T need. If they combine a slug nerf with increase in gen speeds, however, I'd be down for this. The reason that Killers slug so much is because we just waste too much time hooking survivors.
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+1. I would be happy to avoid these tactics as Killer if it were always viable to do so, but it just isn't. It's up to the devs to incentivize Killers to play for 12 hooks and actually give them a chance to win if they "play fair."
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You are complaining because people are playing Twins in a manner that is consistent with all other killers. That is NOT an issue with the Twins. Rather an issue with the player. The game can't force someone to play a certain way. You continue to say that because the Twins can't pressure gens players are somehow forced to camp and slug. That is a generalization I do not accept because I see Spirits ALL THE TIME camping, tunneling, and slugging. In fact, I find them to be the biggest sluggers, when in fact they don't need to. Your reasoning is flawed. You can be the most powerful killer, teleport around the map, and they will still slug and play in an unfun manner. I think this is another petty excuse to nerf gens because you can't play the Twins or you saw someone else say "aw, they are weak".
All killers shouldn't be able to win all the time. A killer shouldn't be able to pressure all the gens all the time. A killer shouldn't feel comfortable with winning, which you alluded to. If gens are going too fast, it is not always the game's fault.
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Great discussion!
Killers can suffer from the stress of TOO MUCH CONSTANT ENGAGEMENT resulting in a stressful "always on" experience.
Survivors biggest complaints stem from the killer strategies that result in A LACK OF ENGEGEMENT (being camped or tunneled or slugged) where survivors are not in any meaningful game experience.
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Its true though, as a Pig Main most of my kit revolves around constantly moving and tapping people, making new chases and leaving the guy with the helmet to flop around. So ideally I run into situations where I'm not tunneling or camping because her kit is ideal when the pain is spread out. Most of the killers I play are like that where secondary objectives are threatening enough to where I don't have to be "ON" all the time So I tend to do well with killers like pig and plague. The reason I don't touch other killers really is because their playstyle does force you to play in a way that some people consider "BM" (god forbid you ever run non slow down perks). I understand why those killers have to play the way they do because I've played them. But most survivors just.....don't...get it.
And the devs don't get it either. They need to come up with more creative threatening ways for killers who don't have side objectives....to have side objectives. Not every killer is pig.....but every killer should be pig. By game pace alone, every killer should be pig. The main reason killers like spirit and nurse and hillbilly do so well in game pacing is because those killers are faster than the pace of the game without any slow downs. Now before some dummy comes in here to measure the stats with a ruler, understand, that this can't be measured and math'd out. Every game is different, but the trend is what sets the mold. People complain about clown all the time, and yes, he has a tendency to proxy camp, has limited range on his power to be effective in a chase, has a big terror radius etc. His problem isn't his power to engage in a chase and end it. His problem is he can't and doesn't naturally spread his presence around enough to not run into areas where he's tunneled or camped someone without giving up a gen because he can't be in 8 places at once.
Compare that to someone like plague to where, as soon as you're running chases on people your disease is spreading around so even if you're focused on 1 person, your disease is passively making the game just that much harder for other survivors to avoid and then they have to cleanse or get insta downed. Same for pig, you're chasing 1 person, you down and trap them, you can let them go, since again your helmet is passively making the game just a bit harder for them, (in my dream world one of her add ons makes survivors drunk when they wear a helmet similar to the way clowns vials are). Legion is another great killer who does this, constantly spreading out the threat, constantly giving survivors something to do.
What kills other killers is the fact that they can't be engaged with all the other survivors all the time. So when survivors are by themselves not engaged with killer mechanics then of course generators are gonna fly by......because they're essentially just afk pressing M1 and clicking skill checks. Theres no physical threat to them, and theres no psychological threat to them via stealth so....yeah stuffs just gonna fly by causing killers to get desperate and take what they can get even if its at the cost of a survivor being able to play the game.
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You are literally the type of person I was describing in my post. You assume that if a killer get DS stunned, the first thing they do is go to the forums and complain about it. You feed they cycle of toxicity due to ignorance, intentionally or not.
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Because they do.
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they are all valid strategies though, the difference though lies in how they're used and for what purpose they are used. If I have knock out running, of course I'm gonna use it to slug people its a valid strategy. But lets say I'm playing bubba....I hook someone and stand there.....while its a valid strategy its hella BM. But if theres 4 people left and one of them is hooked suddenly its more practical than it is BM....
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What do you mean by "they"?
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They! *plays X-Files theme*
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Spirit isn't the most powerful killer, she's just one of the fastest. When you're playing a character like spirit you're under the same constraints as if you picked up clown or trapper, the only difference is you get to your objectives and targets faster. You still need to be in 8 places at once, but spirit, nurse, and hillbilly seem better than most other killers because even though they can't literally be in 8 places at once, they can get a hell of a lot closer to that goal than every other killer in this game which says a lot about mobility considering the base speed of spirit is hag levels. Its deeper than what most people understand. And you would understand it more if you played killer as much as survivor.
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My 2 cents is if possible split the game. Have your competitors and have your laid back session. You want a slug fest goto the brawl section. You want the slower paced go-to it. But as people slammed me before what's to stop one from being toxic in that group.
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They CAN be fun. They shouldn't be designed to be unfun.
I think I'm coming off as a bit extreme here. Game mechanics should be designed with effectiveness in mind with a side product of fun. Game mechanics shouldn't be anti-fun.
In my mind, because very fewmatches I lose are highly enjoyable, winning is a significant portion of my fun.
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Lots of good comments here, but as a killer main the best way to slow the game down is to kill a survivor. Period.
If you get to 1 gen left and there's 4 survivors, you are as good as toast. There's no way to start killing off survivors evenly so everyone equally has a good time. Sometimes you're just going to be the unlucky one.
I have played Twins extensively and am now quite good at it, but am frequently accused of camping. This is because (a) I stay in the area with Charlotte while controlling Victor and (b) Victor is so fast, I can run back to hook area and run down the fleeing injured survivor if they don't hide quickly. Neither is camping. Sometimes I get a down coming off hook and sometimes I don't. But chasing down the injured survivor coming off a hook is easy and I don't even have to be very close. The best red survivors are pretty good at avoiding victor, so it's possible that this technique may become ineffective as more players become accustomed to avoiding Victor's pounces (which is, frankly, easy to do).
Meanwhile, there's a lot other bad with Twins as described, but the above has proven to be very effective against all but the best red SWFs. Typically I lose the first couple of generators but after a few have been hooked and gens start condensing, then it starts to swing towards the Killer.
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What are the causes of the problem, though? It's certainly not that killers are too weak to play "normally", as the post implies. Think about it this way; let's say we buff killer massively so that the whole roster strong enough to win without tunneling/camping/slugging. Does that mean that tunneling/camping/slugging will go away? Absolutely not. Killers who are playing to win will always adopt the tactics that give them the best chance to win. The problem, therefore, is that camping/tunneling/slugging are often the strongest plays a killer can make.
The devs, for their part seem aware of this.
Slugging: They've introduced a number of perks recently that make it harder to slug (Soul Guard, For the People, WGLF rework, Power Struggle, Flip Flop) even beyond the tried and true method of Unbreakable (or No Mither, if you're a masochist). You could argue that perks like Knock Out or Hex: TTS also encourage slugging, and I'd agree somewhat, but there are so many counters to these that the general trend is clearly anti-slugging.
Camping: They tied hook proximity to emblems. BBQ is of course a big incentive to not camp and to spread out hooks. There are many other extremely strong perks that incentivize this, such as Make Your Choice, Pop Goes the Weasel, Thrilling Tremors, and Devour Hope. BT is a strong camping deterrent for most killers too. Perks like Insidious also help camping, but the overwhelming push is towards not camping.
Tunneling: As much as the devs say it's not designed as an anti-tunneling perk, the fact remains that DS has an unhook-based timer and an extremely powerful effect. So, whether or not it was the intention, it's a big deterrent to tunneling. BT is a big incentive not to tunnel off the hook as well. Perks like Off the Record, Babysitter, etc. aren't particularly strong, but they do allow survivors to take a little agency for the killer not tunneling. WGLF incentivizes survivors to prevent tunneling by massively rewarding protection hits.
I think the only way to solve this problem is to make slugging/camping/tunneling to actually be weaker plays than patrolling gens and splitting up hooks. If killers need buffs at that point to keep up, by all means. I think we're moving in the right direction overall, then, but powers like the Twins' that really encourage slugging and camping just don't seem ideal.
Punting Victor is so freaking fun though so I'm not mad :D
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@BigBrainMegMain ds isn't even that bad, you're just not good at recovery from it. Don't chase the person who just stunded you, what a waste of time. Go to the next survivor and start patrolling gens to make up for the stun time. Y'all keep complaining about ds like it's the worst perk in game when it's really not that big of a deal. Eat the stun and move on.
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The main issue, I think, is the fact that they use perks to cover for those issues. When they have been a blight (heh) on the game since it launched.
Why not just add base game protection for those types of tactics, then rework the band aid perks, then balance killers accordingly?
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In a "vs" game with winners and losers? The only way it's possible is if both sides don't care about "winning," and are content with achieving smaller successes like repairing some gens, winning a chase or two, pulling your buddy off the hook, etc for Survivors and making everyone bleed a bit with maybe a kill or two on the Killer side.
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Except it is the games fault. Even as spirit you dont have a good answer to survivors that just hold m1 and rush gens. The best you can do is down someone and force them out immediately. Survivors dont get to engage the killer and play the game because they have nothing to do. Just sot and hold m1 and look in 360 degrees around them for the killer.
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