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Ebony and Ivory Memento Moris now require the targeted survivor to have been hooked twice
Comments
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ok so the killer had an ability to hook and kill. Why limit that? Obviously its strong, just like 4 dead hards 4 decisive strikes and 4 exhaustion perks. But u aint doing ######### to fix that. U just nerf killers once again. But keys, keys are fine.
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All these drama queens crying about keys...two word's for ya: FRANKLIN'S DEMISE.
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You should be head of the balance team at BHVR.
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Then why not wait for the key changes as well? You could have held on to the mori changes until you guys get the key changes, especially since this came out of left field, people wouldn't feel lied to if you held on until then. If you guys don't want to look biased, then don't drastically nerf an aspect of one side, while not nerfing an equally as oppressively aspect of the other side at the same time. It's the old MoM situation all over again, except in reverse for the other side.
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I am evaluating it for what it is..a change we waited months for just to make the worst change and keys are exactly like moris so I'm not sure how you'd think otherwise , this is just like pop and ds..difference is pop was changed without good reason
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I'm describing this to the three people I responded to in addition to everyone else reading the thread. I want to make my reasoning clear.
Offerings should not seriously influence the outcome of a match. That was one of the most broken things about Moris before; not only was it the single strongest inventory element in the entire game, but it could be used out of the offering slot, which otherwise only gives you weak effects. That makes their strength extra busted.
One hook is a massive difference. If you have a survivor downed on death hook, they're basically dead. The only things that can save them are strong and bold teammates or perks like DS. If you Mori a survivor downed after one hook, though, they don't even get the opportunity to use perks like DS. Even with an Ivory Mori you could just tunnel the first person that gets unhooked, Mori them, and 4k in the overwhelming majority of matches. Now you can still try to tunnel people, but your offering only makes it a bit easier instead of basically handing you the game. That's a very good thing.
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Keys are exactly like Moris...Thats a good joke. Keys require you to get to the Endgame to have multiple players escape. While Moris can just be used with 5 Gens left and it is a win for the Killer (unless they are super-bad).
Moris were far stronger than Keys. Not that Keys are weak by any means and they should and will be changed as well. But saying that Keys and Moris are exactly the same...oof.
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Then they want you to nominate them on steam, if they are lazy
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Honestly, this is a pretty positive change. Mori's were just absurdly powerful and promoted toxic gameplay, now, they're fair and add a fun aspect to gameplay.
I'll be happy to use them now!
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Why? Survivors now have an even stronger item than the killers do which is something that should not happen. Killers should have control over the match and keys are so strong because they remove that control. Also the nerf is probably the laziest and completely defeats the point of a mori. Moris are suppose to take survivors out of the game fast. A much better change would've been to make it where after 4 hooks the mori activates. That way it doesn't carry bad killers but also gives survivors a fighting chance while still being dangerous.
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If anything this is just going to make killers more toxic
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this why kill some one when there is a hook next to you
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wierd its a killer thing just like bloodlust weekend
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its already been announced :)
it probably takes longer because itll probably be a rework rather than a number change
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Wow, they were smart to keep this change a secret. Were they nerfed too much is now a big question???
Keys are fine because they require a lot of work to use them. Hope they don't surprise and change them.
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We always knew the devs were survivor mains, this however is far too extreme. It often takes far less time to simply hook someone for the final time instead of killing them with your own hands due to how long these mori animations take. You also get penalized in terms of emblem scoring for using a mori so what the heck is even the point of having them at this point? They're worthless.
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I have been saying for a long time a mori nerf was needed. But I ALSO have strongly advocated against moris being only usable on death hook because they're no longer useful at that stage. PH's Final Judgement takes the time it takes to pick up a survivor, which makes it worth using. A normal mori take ~12-15 seconds. In that time you could easily hook someone and move on to the next chase rather than being locked in place.
I have always said making everyone need to be hooked once to use a mori was the way to do it. This was the exact change I did not want to moris.
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I Mean pop before ds with the logic they presented. OoO apparently being fine. And now moris before keys. And i kinda agree if undying a ######### hex gets nerfed before ds then yeah i mean... i respect the devs but the track record is questionable. And this is from someone who already 2 hook moris with ebony so i dont depip lol and i dont wanna tunnel mori.
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PRAISE BE TO THE ENTITY
Honestly, what would make mori's more wholesome for all sides is that if you got an extra 5,000 points for being Moried. Instead survivors get punished for being Moried. Every time I get Moried i lose a pip and I just sit there like why do I even play this game.
"Make Mori's more like Bloody Party Streamers 2021"
I'm happy for the "Nerf".
DO YOU UNDERSTAND HOW HARD IT IS TO COMPLETE FOUR OR FIVE GENERATORS WHEN I HAVE TWO DCS FROM A MORI :I
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Yes, they were nerfed TOO much. :) They should have simply made it:
4 Hooks to unlock 1st Mori
*Then one Mori unlocked for each hook after that. Said Mori can be used on anyone whether they have been hooked or not. This would have encouraged Survivors to defend one another to keep the Hook count lower, and prevented tunneling.
This fix will do the opposite. The only way to use a Mori effectively is to Tunnel, and tunnel EARLY. Thus every time someone gets a Rift or Daily that says all Survivors must die by your hand... nothing but tunnels.
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Dont get me wrong, i was all for a Moris nerf, but THIS one makes them completely useless. Why should i waste a ultra rare offering to kill them while they would be dead anyway. Not to mention, sometimes it can take longer to do the kill animation instead of just hooking them.
Besides that, why didnt keys got changed too??
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This change was literally just shoved in because people are already mad and this stops another shitstorm during a later patch. There is no way this change was actually planned to be in this patch. It could have been done months or years earlier, or later. But then people would have been mad, and that's bad, but now everyone is already mad so it doesn't really change much.
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Oh well.
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//
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A shill for what exactly? What am I trying to help sell by disagreeing with you on video game balance changes? Do you even know what a shill is?
You ARE being melodramatic. “Killers will leave the game in droves if they can’t mori off first hook!” Boo hoo. Moris were unbalanced, unfair and unfun and they won’t be missed. If being able to mori off first hook was the only thing keeping you playing the game, then bye.
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The Only difference is..miris made winning easier..keys rewarded failure
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Whats the point of the Mori then? Should've changed it to requires every survivor to be hooked once before being able to use it. This feels like a waste of 7000 bps. And does absolutely nothing. It's not even quicker to mori someone than bring them to a hook. A disappointing change once again.
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did people used them for something other than daily and Archive Quests?
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Frankly, I feel like Moris should just be removed from the game, period. Killers already kill players, they don't need another way to do so. I confess I'm not sure why people are upset about keys - I don't find them all that powerful, and so much of how they function is up to luck anyway. I don't see keys and moris as similar at all.
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I'm glad they're changed. They were offerings, so they shouldn't have such a big impact on the game. No other offering was as game changing as moris were. Less/more hooks, less/more mist, don't really have a drastic outcome on a match. Also them being so strong and only an offering made it possible for killers to use their strongest addons, like iri heads + ebony and totally break the balance of the game. Also try to imagine if survivors had an offering that allowed them to do one gen less, that'd be the survivors version of a mori. So I'm glad that moris were changed to be a cosmetic offering, rather than gamechanging one, though I don't think they're worth the 7k bp.
Moris were far worse than keys anyway. Survivors have conditions to complete x amount of gens for the key to work, moris was basically just hook once and tunnel. Not saying that keys are fine, they definitely need to be nerfed as well, but I understand the reasoning that moris only needed tweaking, while keys need some kind of rework. So it was easier/faster to tweak them.
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Step in the right direction imo.
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Okay? I mean my only real problem is now i have like 100 offerings on freddy alone i havent counted the others that are pretty much not worth it. And with ebonies being shoved in killers face twice per bloodweb my only real problem is the same as its always been. Moris need to show up less often in the bw then other ultra rares like killers addons. For example on myers i have 86 ebonies 15 fragrant tufts of hair and 5 judiths tombstones. Maybe im unlucky but thats just how i see it its nothing to do with the key comparison.
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Except offerings can and do have a big impact on the game. You can change what map your on (like survivors going to Haddonfield). Back in the day changing the mist affected things, not so much now but it still had an impact (and was changed more by graphics change then by actually trying to balance things). You can influence where the trap door is going to be. And back in the day you used to be able to change the light level of the game. Now, the theme does seem to be them making offerings less and less important...which makes you wonder why keep them inf the game if they have little effect? And finally, keys aren't offerings. They are items. You can keep them after a match. And as they are an escape tool...you have a good chance of keeping them and using them again. They can be found in chests. You can get perks to make a higher chance of finding them in chests. Killers have to pay bloodpoints, and lose the mori even if they never used it.
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I find this is really lazy solution to fix Mori like this. This will not remove tunneling to Mori on survivor side, and being too useless on killer side.
I gave this idea before:
- Red mori: become Purple Mori, able to mori ONE Survivor when 4 Gen done
- Green mori: able to mori ONE Survivor when 5 Gen done
- Yellow mori: able to mori ONE Survivor when EGC starts
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Why is this "the worst change"? You said in your comment that you thought it was unimaginative and you were annoyed that they didn't change keys. Given that the issue with Moris was balance, not excitement, the real question isn't "is this an exciting change?"; It's "is this a balanced change?". In my opinion the answer is a clear yes.
Keys are in the item slot, not the offering slot, meaning survivors need to do without their strongest items/add-ons to use one. Moris were useful in just about every game, while keys are only relevant in a minority of games (you need to survive until hatch spawn despite killers' tendency to tunnel key users, not escape easily through the exit gate, not take the open hatch during the EGC, not lose your key during the match, etc.). Keys have a number of counters as well: Franklin's (especially with Hoarder), tunneling/camping (especially after the hatch spawns), defending gens (so the hatch won't spawn), etc. You can also simply dodge the lobby with no penalty if you see a key and don't want to deal with it. Old Moris had no counters, besides bad matchmaking pairing you with a baby killer. Even lobby dodging wasn't possible, since the match needs to be loading already before you know a Mori might be in play.
With that said, I'm sure the devs will look at keys. Moris were clearly the more serious balance issue, though, so it makes sense they were addressed first. Moris had nothing to do with keys other than both being strong and annoying people because of it. The devs don't and shouldn't make balance changes in a "tit for tat" way, with every killer change being accompanied by a survivor change. They simply make the changes that they feel are most important for game balance. Expecting otherwise is just evidence of bias towards one side and entitlement.
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Pop is still extremely strong and is still the strongest standalone killer perk in the game imo. I was happy with the Pop change too; it was way too easy to hook someone, go on a chase as normal, down that person, then pop a nearby gen, and then hook the person to have your Pop right back again. That made the perk an absolute snowball machine, since chasing quickly would essentially give you additional pops, and it would frequently win me games by itself. The 45 second timer still allows for this in extreme cases, but mostly killers are forced to choose between popping a gen and getting right into a chase. Given that Pop removes 20 seconds of repair time instantly, I think it's more than fair to make chasing vs. popping more of a choice.
Regardless of your opinions on that change, though, it has nothing to do with DS. The only things they had in common were hook-based 60 second timers and being strong, and if that's the bar you may as well call for MYC nerfs.
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Odd bulb would like to speak with you. I spent my money on those add ons I should be reimbursed as well.
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How else could they have made this work out?
A hook and a half then you get to use your mori? I don't think there really is a middle like for that
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Compare Moris now to other offerings, though. Aren't they just about as useful? Hooking everyone once and then Moriing with wild abandon is still unbelievably strong compared to the other offerings in the game, and that's not good for balance. I think this was the perfect change; it's a relatively weak effect, but it can still be very useful in niche situations. Your Petrified Oak is usually going to be useless, but sometimes it's the difference between getting hooked or not. Your Salty Lips are usually going to be useless, but sometimes it's the difference between Kobeing and dying. Your cut coin is probably just going to backfire and make survivors more objective-focused, but sometimes it prevents survivors from finding the key or medkit that would have saved their lives. This change brings Moris right in line with offerings like those.
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how about hooking everyone at least once?
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Keys do need a nerf but its not as urgent. Before today you could hook a survivor 2 minutes or less in and tunnel them out the game immediately. A hatch escape with a key still requires at least 4 gens for more than 2 people to get out. It doesnt have the same effect on the match dynamic.
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It'll be the usual whining. It won't be long until some 20 hour killer main compares killer players to a persecuted minority from IRL history. We're close I can feel it.
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There are many ideas to rework Mori, not just sticking "requires a hook or two to mori"
- Requires hook everyone at least once to Mori
- Only able to Mori 1 survivor instantly without require any hook, when there are ??? Gen left
Basically require "something" (just not only hook), to able to Mori 1 or more survivors.
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The problem with that logic in my opinion is that those offerings get use out of them by existing. The ONLY time a mori will ever be useful anymore is if someone still has DS up, you've hooked them twice, and EGC is in play. You're effectively playing to lose if that's how you're using them, so why bother? In any other scenario you're better off hooking the person who's dead because it's faster, or slugging them and pressuring someone else because they're slugged and now you're doubling your pressure. It's a flashy animation that serves no purpose in almost any game. A cut coin is guaranteed to reduce items on a team not bringing them in. A petrified oak makes sabo and bodyblocking a good play. Salty lips have always been a meme. Fog add ons used to be way stronger than they are now so you can argue a weird reverse power creep with offerings there I guess? Same with the now gone moon offerings.
Regardless, the other offerings are consistent value, moris no longer are. If hooking everyone once is too strong, then a charge system where you need 4 tokens to mori and moris cause you to lose 1/2 charges (with ivory being unable to gain past getting 4 the first time) is also a good nerf that still lets them be consistently useful. Must be on death hook turns them into a niche use case forever, and that feels bad. This coming from someone who pretty much hasn't used them ever since I got the achievements for them.
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My baseline for ds is its legitimately broken while pop was not
As for moris it wasn't a good balance or design change..but many are blind to the fact as we are seeing
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I love this change. I would've prefered all 4 survivors to be hooked instead as a requirement to mori though. This would kinda of shift the tunneling problem to the 4th survivor hooked ( he'd most likely get tunneled off the hook into a mori), buuuuut.. *most killers using moris suck at the game and they'd never be able to hook all 4 survivors before the game end* :)
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But you said that it was ridiculously OP then saying it was useless like their was a middle route they could've chose
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that is the middleground.
the mori activates after everyone was hooked at least once.
that would eliminate 5 gen first hook mori tunnels, give some counterplay to the offering AND would leave enough power for it to still be powerfull and worth running.
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Ah I see, I mean I understand 2 hook ebony, but this change for ivory moris could've had a different route
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nerf key only usable by 1 player only is pretty balance. so swf can not bullying the killer
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Ooooooooh nevermind I'm a fool I read that as you were referring the ebony mori's original requirement
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