Anyone else remember?
Anyone else remember when killers didnt really complain. Dont get me wrong. Survivors were super toxic back then and deserved nerfs but for what it's worth I respect the og killer players. They barely complain despite the ######### they went through.
This is off topic but legacy killers are generally better than legacy survivors. They just went through more. But I digress.
New age dbd is pretty bad in all honesty. You get nerfed for 4 years and still get complaints. "Game is survivor sided" or whatever. It makes me laugh to be honest. Ive been maining killer and havent seen the survivor sided stuff yall been trying to say.
Anyways this probably sounds entitled or whatever but it's just my thoughts. The new killer players are some of the biggest complainers I see. But I can say the newer survivor players have to stop claiming killers like bubba are op lol.
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Body is 1 character too short.
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Ok ok I get it lol.
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Maybe bcause most nerfs since the beginning can't even be called nerf but rebalancing the game.
I would love to see both sides play 1 day in both roles in a vanilla version with their knowledge of the game now.
Insta moris, insta heal, bnp, mid chase recoverable exhaustion, palett vacuum, double palett/palett city, endless balanced landing, perma saboed hooks and traps,.... And so on.
The game would be so dead if that stuff was still in the game.
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Alas, I digress I am sometimes one of those complainers. Angry vent on occasion.
However in my defence I think I (usually) tend to bring up well thought out points worthy of discussion. Never simply “wah, sUrViVoR siDeD!” or “wah, KiLLeR siDeD!”.
I will however agree that the game has continually gotten better and better balanced, and that it’s in the best spot it’s ever been in terms of balance. It’s a far cry from the masochistic experience it used to be when attempting to play killer.
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It is a nerf. You cant try and cha ge the word man come on now. Whether you like it or not it did make the side technically weaker. Im also not saying they werent justified.
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It's ok to complain sometimes and vent. It does get annoying with the usual "survivor sided devs" nonsense. Tha that good you arent doing that. Killer is so easy these days and survivors just need qol the game is pretty boring as them.
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They shouldn't, because it never existed, lol.
In the old days, killers faced 20s SB, 4x DS, maps loaded with pallets
Of course they complained all the time.
(Not that their side wasn't loaded with BS as well, but that's besides the point.)
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Shouldnt what?
Yeah the old stuff was op. I rarely seen complaints and even when I did pretty justified to me.
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It's always astounding when people talk about fun here.
It was not fun for me to get run around whatever object just to get the palett thrown in my face and additionally taunted by tbag and/or flashlight.
The game was the most enjoyable in it's early days when both sides had less of a clue and survivor were more afraid of the killer.
The game had more of a hide and seek feeling, with playing catch as means to prolong the inevitable. Now it's just catch because most survivor know that hiding isn't effective, their are not even one bit scared of the killer or have any respect for them. They are just another guy to chase the survivor.
That's also the reason why I quit for good in the beginning of 2020. I just don't have the time to invest several 1000 hours into just one game to stay on top.
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Personally I think the game is in a fairly balanced state at this moment. Both sides can dominate each other depending on skill level, tactics, builds, maps, items etc.
As for the og stuff I hardly remember complaining about anything back then even though some situations were straight up bs.
I remember old DS (for instance) and the hatch OR the open gate. I downed the obsession near hatch OR open gate (had both situations a million times back then) and literally HAD TO watch them crawl to the hatch/gate because no hooks were near enough for DS-dribbling, obsession DS was active all game and the hatch couldn't be closed.
Even in those situations I never said anything negative regarding balance which isn't a good thing.
I literally ignored serious balance issues because I just enjoyed killer gameplay so much because it was something all new in terms of gaming.
Anyways the game has come a long way and its current state is where it should be balance wise (minus the dead zones but a new map formula is supposed to fix that anyways).
Solo queue may be a pain most of the time but that's not a balance issue - it's more of a "most survivors don't understand anything about the game"-issue if we're completely honest.
If ranking up as survivor was more dependant on your chases rather than farming altruism then you'd get WAY better games as solo.
I see ridiculously bad survivor decisions and 10 second chases literally every - single - solo survivor match. If you run Bond things become even more annoying.
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I think survivors still have a decent amount going for them, the game is by no means heavily survivor sided but most of the killers in the game simply can't handle tourney squads, it's less a survivor balancing issue then it is a general balancing issue, survivors either need to be taken down to the level where most killers can have a chance at them or killers need to be buffed accordingly to match the survivors. The latter being what we've been seeing recently. The game is easily the most "balanced" it's ever been and what most people complain about today doesn't touch the problems that the game had 4 years ago. Playing Trapper in 2016 where there were windows every 10 feet and 3 infinites in every map was hell on earth, even though today's problems don't touch the old ones people obviously should still critique the game to keep it improving.
I think the complaining comes mainly from a fundamental misunderstanding of the game itself, Dead by Daylight takes A LOT of time to truly understand it's balancing issues, and a lot of them you won't see until your at the highest level of play. While to newer players it may look like Clown is overpowered, they simply don't understand how to face him yet, and while that's a pretty extreme example, it can be applied to most situations of survivors or killers just not knowing the tools that are at their disposal. I think most of the complaints that leave us scratching our heads are coming from players that the game has brought in over the past couple years, they haven't gotten to play at the higher ranks consistently enough to gain an understanding of the games issues. Having experienced the hell-scape that was this games prior form doesn't help our understanding of complaints either, and we'll say the game is so easy now, compared to before yes, but easy in general this game is far from. Killer can be incredibly frustrating to newer players, rightfully so, especially when you eventually get into red ranks. And the complexities of looping and understanding each killers power and how to work around it as survivor can be incredibly overwhelming along with perks, items, add-ons, etc. Both sides take hundreds of hours to gain a fundamental understanding of, and that's the source of the misunderstanding.
We as veterans view things as so easy now, while newer players are getting thrown into a pool of 20+ killers and hundreds of perks, something that we were introduced to over time, and have become accustomed to. People will complain whether they are uninformed or simply have a different opinion, but in the end everyone is trying to better the game, so while it may be annoying seeing a 2 post gamer come onto the forums and rant about how Demogorgon is overpowered, we just need to suck it up, inform the individual and move on, because the games community is growing fast, and newer players will always be wrong. ;) - Thanks for coming to my Ted Talk
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The problem is that the game actually is survivor sided when you look at tournaments and top level play. If it wasn't, then nurse wouldn't be the only viable killer. The math itself doesn't add up. Let's look at what a perfectly efficient team does.
Facts:
- Gens take 80 seconds each.
- Survivors move at 4.0 m/s
- Killers (most) move at 4.6 m/s
- Killers (most) have a 32 meter terror radius.
- Killer lunge range is 6 meters (generally you wait until 4-5 meters for dead hard, and to not get spun etc.)
- A survivor moves at 6.0 m/s for 2 seconds after getting hit.
The scenario:
- Match starts, every survivor splits up onto different gens.
- Killer runs to opposite side of the map (where survivors likely spawn)
- Crossing the maps takes 15-20 seconds depending on the map and killer.
- Assuming you instantly find a survivor in that time (which can be rare) this takes about 15 seconds.
- Lets pretend for a minute, the survivor doesn't use windows, or pallets, or anything, and they just hold w, as soon as they see the killer.
- As soon as the killer terror radius at 32 meters, survivor looks around for the killer. Human reaction time can be around .25 seconds, but let's say you have to look around to find which direction the killer is coming from and it takes 3 seconds. The killer is now 32 - (4.6 x 3), or 18.2 meters away.
- You now know where the killer is coming from, and hold w in the opposite direction.
- Killer needs to get within 4 meters of you to lunge. The killer gains .6 meters per second. Getting within 4.5 meters takes 22.8 seconds (i'll even round down for you)
- It is now 15 + 22 = 37 seconds for the first hit (remember no pallets, or windows, or anything, just holding w).
- Killer is able to gain 1 meter while cleaning their weapon for 3 seconds. The survivor uses their speed boost to move 16 meters, which means the killer is 15 meters away.
- It takes the killer another 17.5 seconds to get within 4.5 meters to lunge. Again, i'll even round down for you.
- This is now a down in 15 + 22 + 17 = 54 seconds.
- It takes 3 seconds to walk up and pick up the survivor, and another 10-15 seconds to walk to a hook, and it takes 1.5 seconds to hook the survivor. This time is 3 + 10 + 1.5 = 14.5 seconds (again i'll even round down and say 14 seconds)
- The first hook now took 15 + 22 + 17+ 14 = 68 seconds.
- Gen times are 80 seconds.
- During this time the other 3 survivors work on a generator, you now lose 3 generators
- Rinse and repeat, but now you have 1 survivor on a gen and another rescuing and healing, so it is a bit slower, but you still lost 3 gens.
Keep in mind. This ignores pallets. It ignores perks. It ignores windows. It ignores looping. This is literally just holding w for as long as possible. If a team plays efficiently, and hits the gens hard like they should, a killer can never win. The only exception to this, is killers who can shorten that chase window, like nurse, spirit, huntress (arguable), deathslinger, etc. Because you can't hold w against them. Now when you factor in pallets, windows, looping, etc. This basically means nurse and spirit are really the only viable killers at top level play.
Now, you might say "well you should get the first hit, then go find another survivor on a gen". And you are right, this is generally optimal. But now imagine that scenario i mentioned, where you do that. It took you 15 + 22 seconds, to find the first survivor and hit them once. It takes a survivor 16 seconds to heal. Now all they do is heal, and start hitting a gen and the scenario repeats itself. Now you can maybe do this only once or twice depending on your medkit. But by the time your team runs out, you easily could complete multiple generators.
This is the problem with the game. When survivors play perfectly, a killer can't win. A killer has to win by survivors making mistakes. There isn't a way for a killer to truly win a game against an efficient team if they play perfectly.
Post edited by Reinami on15 -
Back then survivors had literal infinites, like completely unbeatable setups, and still got caught. People didn't take the game as seriously, but the more it got exposure, the more different types of people played. And, eventually, the need for it to be accessible became a thing. It doesn't help that red ranks tend to be sweaty and put people on edge in both sides.
The game is survivor sided, if survivors actually tap into their potential. Solo queue doesn't allow that a lot of the times, so it does seem more balanced in this aspect, maybe even killer-sided depending on some factors. Against teams? It'll always be survivor-sided if they're not altruism turds or rainbow ranks, otherwise solo would be often impossible to play if everything was balanced off halfway decent teams.
I feel like you'd change your mind when you see the ridiculous setups survivors can use in some maps like Thompson House, and they will milk those until the bitter end, even get downed to preserve the super pallets. That's probably the frustration killers get. Or 3 individual survivors on a generator at the start and all can loop you long enough to be incapable of doing anything about it. That's actually easier than some think, even with a sub-par team, so long as there is coordination.
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I don't ever remember a time when killers didn't complain. And the forum used to have two categories for killer and survivor topics. 75% of the comments were in the killer section. Ironic.
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Some People don't want to improve. They think if they watch their favourite Killer Streamer that they'll do just as well. Ans then if they don't, they start complaining and saying stuff like "survivor sided".
Or when someone says "gen rush" while them as Killer were just wandering around not even trying to apply pressure.
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The game in its earlier stages didn't have as many players and the players that were around probably didn't always know about the forums etc.
More people = more complaints. Now you give these people a platform like the forums and the outcome is that it may look like people are relatively more complaining. Just my guess but I find it hard to believe that people just didn't complain at all, especially when looking back at how ridiculous the game actually was back then. If no one complained, how come the game looks so much different now? The devs were pushed to change so much for a reason, were they not? And I don't know a company that doesn't keep the feedback from their community in mind when changing core dynamics of the game as much as DBD has done.
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When you only bring the strongest stuff, and your opponents don't do the samez then it's easy to forget. But when you don't? If you go up agaisnt a decent squad pretending it's all for cash? Even a god Nurse with an old Ebony is ######### sideways.
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Even when it's not completely accurate as old killers constantly complained as well, the reason why it may seem like there wasn't as much complaining even when survivors were ten times stronger was because they were also ten times worse at playing the game.
Also the complains today are imao pretty justified, people are upset at messy changes as they should be. Even you post every now and then how devs can't properly fix hit validation basically complaining and you're not wrong.
If the changes were better, people would complain less but alas the changes even when healthy for the game were rushed so people voice their opinion on it.
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At the end of the day, I do feel like the game is still Survivor-sided, because with most Killers, if you and the Survivors play perfect, you'll lose.
HOWEVER,
It's certainly come a LONG way from when I started playing in November of 2018 and is the closest to balance that it's ever been.
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Killer mains did complain back then. I would know because I was one of them! I mean we even made a 'on strike' steam group! (Although I probably shouldn't mention that anymore... although it was 100% justified at the time).
We also complained about infinites, vacuum pallets, vacuum windows, DS, insta flash, old BT, about the sheer amount of pallets (funny how we are still complaining about the same things years on).
We used to have discussions about how many minutes you would take PURELY breaking pallets on maps like bloodlodge without brutal strength... It was a must have perk.
Also complained about a bunch of nurse bugs (I certainly did https://youtu.be/WyRu6o7FaIc ), saboteur, hooks not respawning, autoaim (made you hit the wrong person), BNP, genspeed, insta medkits etc.
Killers, including survivors have always complained.
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Because the old killers had something else to do than keep playing a game they don't like. Any old killers that stayed until now usually have a lot of patience with the game BUT even then I seen these legacy killers just felt so defeated against Survivors who knows what they're doing.
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I think the problem is that they know that its possible to lose when you play perfect. Then they think everytime they lose, it is such a match. But in reality they did make many mistakes.
The knowledge there are impossible matches is an easy excuse for them.
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Killer is easy because most survivors aren't good. And can I see your rank 1 achievement if it's so easy?
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I dunno what weird nostalgia goggles you're wearing. I don't think there is a single part of dbd history where either side wasn't constantly complaining. You might say but they did it less. There were also far less players. If you scale things up there's technically less complainers now.
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I appreciate you spelling out the math! Everyone should read this post. One thing you left out though: how would you go about solving this equation?
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Nobody can play perfectly you can still play at top level but it isnt perfect that's why you can still play like Pyramid Head and 4k.
Also mostly everyone plays pubs. I cant see the merit when you dont see tournament teams often in pubs. It's a minority.
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I'm xbox no rank 1 achievements for either side. Also when I do go against solid teams I win. Thag does prove my point though all complaints make no sense when alot of survivors are bad.
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Chases arent even only running around an object. It's only filler pallets that are like that. Jungle gyms, shack, some main buildings have unique ways to run them and allow both sides to outplay on.
You cant expect people to stay scared and play in a boring passive way. It's allggood if you refuse to learn how to beat aggressive players.
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Good players still dont really beat me. I get my 3 to 4k. Sure tis only anecdotal on my matches. But balance wise you cant really say the game is survivor sided outside of tournament play. Which the majority does not play. The majority of survivors are bad and even the good ones are beatable by solid killers who know how to play.
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Highlights everything perfectly.
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This is a reasonable breakdown, but is also the absolute worst case scenario. You also chose to ignore or forgot multiple issues like:
- Corrupt intervention will prevent the survivors from immediatelly jumping on their own private gen. In fact. it is not uncommon to get your first hook with before the first gen is even close to popping with CI equipped.
- Survivors will spend time getting to a gen. If you want to break down the time into descrete seconds you have to take into account that even being within only 16 meters of a gen will take you 4 seconds to get to one.
- Only finished gens count. Hook+Pop can turn the tide. The same can be said for hook+ruin+pressure (with some luck).
- If you watch Otz or NoTofu streams, you will see that losing 3 gens can simply be the cost of doing business. Ending up with 2 gens and 3 survivors puts the killer at an incredible advantage, and in the situations when there are 3 survivors with 3 gens then it is practically impossible to not get 3K as killer. 2 gen 4 survivor situation , is the situation killers try to avoid
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Ive been playing blight on console. I mentione console because his skill cap is vastly different on console and pc. I also play trapper on the side but hes weak and needs a buff. I also enjoy bubba too. Rng affects both sides so that kinda balances things out.
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Yes, yes, yes, so much yes. This is why gen times need to be drastically increased.
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personally, I would reduce the attack cooldown (nerf STBFL in the process), then increase gen times or give survivors something they must do BEFORE generators, something to give the Killer time to get the ball rolling. Like this guy said, simply holding W, not using any pallets, basically guarantees 3 gens pop by the first hook, so the survivors would still have tons of resources
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So we agree on the first few things. But my question is do you have any idea how to rebalance solo queue? Its very frustrating to play and lose bp over bad teammates. I think there should be a new ranking system with higher ranks. Bad players would have a harder time ranking up. This is mostly to decrease trash players flooding red ranks.
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Early game warmup, something similar to what scott jund suggested. The game balances itself out after the first chase much better with 1 survivor on hook, 1 going for the save/healing, 1 getting chased, 1 on gens. The other thing i would do is probably contrary to what people think.
I think they should increase the number of generators survivors need to repair by 2 (add 2 more on the map) and decrease gen times to 60 seconds. Or instead of adding gens, create a secondary objective where you have to find a missing part for the generator and take it to the right one, and have gen speeds be lower.
This would make survivors spend more time moving around the map, and less on a gen, creating more opportunities for interactions with the killer.
Basically, they need to do something to slow down the early game (as Monto would say) just a little bit. In general, i would also like to see them slow the whole game down somehow, to make matches last longer, and then do something to "fix" tunneling and camping. 2 suggestions i have always thought of is:
- If a killer is near a hook for too long (same rules as the emblem), all other survivors repair gens twice as fast.
- When a survivor gets unhooked, they get a new status effect that basically gives them something similar spirit's power for 15 seconds. They run super fast, the killer can't see them, they make no scratch marks, they make no noise. If they heal, or perform an action or get healed etc. it get's cancelled, and then rework borrowed time.
This means you can't tunnel or camp a survivor.
Lastly, they need to bridge the gap between SWF and solo. Best thing for that is, give more information. Give survivors a totem counter, give them more ways to communicate with their team. Make kindred and bond base kit.
After you do those things, you can add more generators, secondary objectives, or an early game warmup phase and extend the game. Because as it stands right now, the game basically needs to get won by both sides within the first 3 minutes and then snowball from there or the other side wins.
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1) Generally not at high ranks. Good teams will either wait out the timer or wait for a chase to start to hit a gen. This really only makes it so instead of losing 3 gens, you'll probably only lose 2, and then now you have no perk for the rest of the match. It isn't as good as you think against optimal teams. Remember, i'm talking about OPTIMAL survivors, not randos.
2) True, but again, i'm talking about OPTIMAL survivors. Everyone will split up and do what they need to do. If you want, take 15 seconds off while everyone finds a gen, but then instead of 71 seconds, you are looking at 56, which still is enough time to pop 2-3 gens before you start your second chase.
3+4) Again, true, but you need to get that pressure first, as i mention a big problem of the game is that you need to basically apply pressure and then snowball the game. if you can't do that, you lose. This game punishes mistakes far too harshly. A single mistake costs you the entire game as a killer, but a single mistake as a survivor typically doesn't. I generally think a match should last around 10-15 minutes, and should not basically be decided within the first 3 minutes.
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In a way, yes, but i don't think directly. From the survivor side, holding m1 for 80 seconds is boring. The fun part of this game is the chase. What they should do is some combination of:
- Add a secondary objective, like having to find a specific missing part for a generator to repair it
- Increase the amount of gens on the map and that survivors need to repair by like a lot, 2-4 more gens.
- Decrease actual holding m1 on gen speeds to 40-60 seconds each.
- Add a stricter penalty for multiple survivors working a gen.
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That is true though but survivors were genuinely op back in those days. It was actually disgusting the things you could do. I'd expect them to complain more. Also even in 2018 when the forums launched Survivors still had a significant amount of things to work with. So I dont understand why I see more complaints when killer is dumb easy.
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YEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS.
At this point, I don't care who or what you are, marry me
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Lol, i just want a fun game for both sides. I think people tend to look at things from 1 side and ignore the other. Admittedly i'm a killer main, but i do play survivor enough to usually get rank 1 and i recognize how boring it can be and how frustrating tunneling and camping could be.
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If I remember correctly the devs made it so you're getting emblems for cleansing totems. That should not be a thing. People who get downed in seconds cheese emblems by cleansing totems.
Altruism should have less weight in terms of pipping, too.
Pipping as survivor should mostly depend on how much you contributed to gen progress AND your chases - at least on red/purple ranks.
Some people may say "but then everyone will drop every pallet during their first chase to cheese the emblems".
My counter-argument is: People already do drop every pallet during their first 10-20 second chase without looping anything because red ranks is full of survivors who never heard about the looping.
There's a galaxy of a difference between you (Azame) and the typical red rank survivor. That should NOT be a thing.
ALL (or at least the majority of) red rank should have your skill level in terms of running the killer otherwise there's literally no difference between red ranks and yellow ranks.
Every toast can cleanse totems and unhook/heal teammates.
People that are allergic to gens, hide all match and get caught by the killer in 10-20 seconds do NOT belong to red ranks / purple ranks.
On a side note:
There's that arabian Hillbilly main. He is INCREDIBLE. He's spent more than 2k hours mastering curving. Even after Hillbilly's rework he's still exclusively playing curve-Billy.
He usually catches red rank survivors in 5-15 seconds (I like to measure chases so these are real numbers).
Today his first match was against ACID (a tournament level team).
He got his first hook at 1 remaining generator on Rotten Fields. He ended up getting 1 kill because one of them decided to stand behind the rock wall in the exit gate instead of just leaving.
A difference THIS big between red rank survivors should not be possible, don't you agree?
EDIT: I'm watching Puppers right now and he just 4k'd as red rank No Blink Nurse on Ormond.
I just had to add that to the comment since I was talking about how chase performance should be more important when it comes to pipping as survivor. Red rank survivors should not even get injured by No Blink Nurse. Instead they got 4k'd AND he 2- or 3 hooked them, too.
TLDR: No emblems for totems, less or no emblems for altruism (bloodpoints only), more emblems for doing gens and long chases. Perhaps that could fix solo queue in the long run. Maybe rank reset should throw you 2 rank colors back, too so red rank players really have to play A LOT to keep the red rank.
Post edited by Yamaoka on0 -
What arabian hillbilly main? Sounds like a person I'd like to watch!
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Apparently he's streaming on a new account with the name "M7MDAX_". Right now he's playing SWF, though. He usually starts and ends his streams with a few curve-Billy matches. Definitely worth watching.
EDIT: @The_high_ground here's some of his clipped curves. He's really incredible as Hillbilly.
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I just want to point out that the post-hit "Sprint Burst" lasts for 2 seconds, not 3 seconds.
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I find the old dbd more fun than the current one,back then I was playing both sides equally,but now I play only a few of one and a bit more of the other.
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Survivors back then didn't abused strong stuff it was very common for people to play against each other regularly since everyone was connected to the same server so it was easier to keep an honor code.
Back then you never saw 4 survivors running the same meta perks it was possible but not that much unless a sweaty squad.
Even if the game is improving and "helping" killers there is always something that helps survivor.
Less bugs, that is for both sides but here are some things that most likely will never get fixed, Nurse bugs, Billy bugs, burning wraith/nurse.
Remember 7 blink nurse? Remember 5 blink nurse? Remember 3 blink nurse? No one uses those addons anymore since 3 blink nurse now is unfun granted she had to get nerfed because of how busted she was.
Billy, phantom saws, bumping into invisible stuff.
Burning wraith with a flashlight boom 5 sec stun animation because someone brought a flashy.
Remember all those nerf Noed posts? Still to this day is continuing.
Everyone can hold M1, this is something I personally dislike a lot since it's true.
OoO before when undetectable became a thing which you may know, it was horrible against stealthy killers especially ghosty and piggy.
OoO now "data shows that OoO users die a lot" most killers hate this perk and if you play killer and love it you either are a only spirit user or a godlike nurse.
Balancing killers, Pig got nerfed, billy got nerfed (which the only things he needed was addon rework and didn't need the new animations and fov), oni got nerfed in 1 week then got brought back but without the super flick, nurse got nerfed and got buggy, spirit got nerfed (she needed it as well and still does more) ph got changed and got buggy, legion got changed (granted it was needed since they were extremely annoying to play against).
From my experience, killer can't use meta perks or will get shittalked but survivors are free to use all meta perks.
I agree that it is easier now than before for killer and harder for survivor but you are being biased by saying that only killers complained back then.
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Fair enough, instead of getting 18 meters of distance you gain 16. Which means instead of taking 20.8 seconds it takes 17.5. Not much of a difference, but i appreciate you pointing it out. Edited the post to fix this.
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