Do you want 12-hooks-games?
Its widely known that tunneling instead of hooking every survivor is more effective. Its not even straight up tunneling one person, only ignoring one person and never chasing them, gives the killer a better chance. Hooking every survivor three times makes the game a lot harder.
So would you as killer or survivor want a mechanic which makes 12 hooking viable? Or what are your reasons against it? Would it make games too long?
Edit: the goal is that the killer shouldnt be penalized for not tunneling a survivor to death.
Comments
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I would rather have longer games where everyone in the game is earning points and having fun. Given that queue time can be anywhere from 10-15 minutes, why on earth would I want to get into a game only to have it end in 5 minutes or less? That's not worth waiting in the queue.
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Who has the time for that?
The survivors won't let it happen more often than not. Always rushing to get out.
I would enjoy a longer match as killer, and survivor.
As a killer, I need time to do stuff, and get points.
As survivor I usually get killed quick and would like more time to get points.
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I see your point. But i asked for 12 hook-games and not for anti-tunneling-measures with a reason.
When i asked for anti-tunneling one half would say tunneling is boring and others we need to tunnel. I know many threads, where that escalated.
I should have said that the goal is to make it so that 4 survivor remain as long as possible in the game. I will edit that.
I personally dont like solutions with perks. It widens the gap to newer players and it creates perks which are so good that other perks are not comparable. What can compare to the impact of D-Strike? One obsession in the game and the killer plays different.
With this thread i just wanted to know whether players even want something like that. It makes no sense to post something in suggestions, when nobody in the community really wants it. I have some solutions, but im not 100% happy with all of them.
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It's all I really do as a killer
Sure, there are times where I'll hook the last person only twice (so they're ending on the struggle phase rather than the Death phase) but that wasn't my end goal. When I play as killer, I do my best to not tunnel or camp or anything of that nature because I find both of those games super boring.
I'd rather get 0 kills and have a fun match than get 4 kills but be bored by it
The problem with adding a mechanic is I'm not sure how you'd actually do it and make it fair. There are already a lot of survivor groups who do their best to make you not 12 hook the team (the people with DS or BT dive bombing you as they get unhooked because they know they're safe and they're just looking to get in your way) but I'm not sure what kind of mechanic you could introduce that would both be fair AND not exploitable as hell by cheeky survivors getting cute with the game.
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I'm surprised it's only ten to 15 minutes for you lol, it should be pushin 20 at night in the usa by now. I hear you though, I don't play much (usually a match or two only a night when at all) when my survivor matches wind up lasting only around as long or especially much less time than my queues. That is why I'm not playing for a couple or few months until I test the waters again and see if the game has gotten better or worse at that point.
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Well, I don't watch the clock, it's possible it's closer to 15-20. :)
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when queues feel they've become very long again or I've sat through most or all of a 15 minute youtube video while waiting I start looking at the time and feel out the average wait time I experience on those evenings or weeks. I hit up around 20 frequently for me on solo survivor that first week or so after crossplay. lol.
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Yeah, I'd like for matches to be longer. As survivor, if matches are too short, then it's just miserable. If matches are too long and drawn out, then it's boring. There's a sweet spot in there where I have a chance to participate in multiple aspects of gameplay within the match so that whether I escape or die I still had fun.
I don't tunnel as killer, I do try to go for hooking survivors multiple times and "spreading the love." But, I'm also not usually playing to kill. I make the game harder on myself by playing in a manner that's more fun for survivors, so to make the game easier on myself I've just sorta said screw it to the idea of "winning."
(As the game is right now, I prefer doing challenges and going for achievements over playing to kill or playing to survive.)
DbD lacks structure, and while that may be part of its initial charm, I think it's bad for the game's health. There are ways for each side to win that are just no fun for the opposition, and while those are legitimate strategies they are not fun. The game shouldn't punish those strategies, the game should be reworked so that those strategies can't even come into play. Of course, that would require a crapton of reworking, so it probably won't happen.
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I prefer the pressure of imminent death, much like when survivors would see the old moris on loading screen. When you know you can't bank on multiple chance, most survivors play more tactically. Games feel better when teammates don't goof around or go down mocking the killer
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You mention the killer being cruel, which makes sense, but it's still a game that should be fun for both sides. Being cruel within the confines of the game shouldn't exclude the possibility of fun, but right now it rather does. DbD is severely lacking in some areas. The closest thing it has to severe injuries are the mangled state (oooh, a red bar so you hold M1 longer while healing) and Deep Wounds (oooh, hold M1 mending). There's no torture or dismemberment or anything (I'm not saying it'd be easy to add or even that it should be added, just pointing out that the in-game mechanic of being a cruel killer is severely lacking. What the killer can do to be cruel right now is tunnel and slug but that sucks for survivors, it doesn't add to their gaming experience it literally takes away their ability to participate in the game.).
The game's lack of structure makes it really difficult to balance killers, too. A killer that's too strong can take out the survivors way too quickly and isn't fun to play against, but a weak killer isn't fun to play as, and the reason that sweet spot between the two seems damn near impossible to hit is because of the game's lack of structure. There's nothing to prevent a killer from slugging and tunneling at five gens to end the game too soon and there's no timer putting pressure on the survivors when it comes to gens nor anything preventing gens from going too quickly making set-up killers' lives hell. Everything is all over the place, it's a scatter-brained mess held together with peeling tape and spaghetti.
When you have SWF vs solo, perks as band-aids, and killers with such totally different powers, the game becomes impossible to balance both in terms of a fair match and in terms of fun.
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Dead by daylight is not a fun game. It is a frustrating, stressful, and addictive game.
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As a Killer main, if I'm able to hook everyone three times whilst spacing them out a bit to give everyone a chance to play, I'll go for it. But if the survivor(s) are rushing generators and playing extremely efficient, I'll skip doing that and probably just focus on two survivors or even tunnel if there's no other way.
But honestly, most games I'm able to reach the 12 hook(s) since solo queue survivor is pretty difficult.
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The not asking for anti-tunneling is explained one sentence later. Its just a different wording so this thread is full of comments why tunneling is necessary. I only want to know whether players would want that most matches take 12 hooks to end, bc it would be a viable strategy.
And what has that to do with slugging? You are missing the point.
The first thing you think is, oh a bad survivor. But i ask this from a neutral perspective.
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Mmm, I'm using the word "structure" in a more general sense. Too general, actually, so my bad. But there need to be changes made to the core of the game.
People want variety, but like with their newest killer The Twins, the devs add variety and there are a lot of people unhappy about how that variety plays out. A lot of killer players feel weak as The Twins, and trying to make the killer stronger by slugging makes survivors hate it. As it is right now, slugging is an absolutely necessary mechanic, but that doesn't mean killers enjoy doing it, either. Unless the survivors have done something to annoy me I feel bad if they get down to half their bleedout bar during the match. Variety without anything to keep it in check (and trying to keep it in check with annoying cool downs is not fun for killers) is messy and problematic.
Anyway, one of the problems with the core gameplay mechanics is being injured. Being injured has two effects: one, it means that barring something like BT or Mettle of Man, the survivor will go down with the next hit, and 2. the survivor is easier to find due to blood trails and injured noises. Both of those only encourage the killer to chase that survivor. If the killer does not chase the survivor, they are not taking advantage of the survivor being injured. This is part of why killers tunnel survivors off the hook. It just makes sense. Injuries do not slow down repair speeds (except with Thanatophobia, which has little effect and again, we're talking band-aids for gameplay issues), whereas killing a survivor slows down repair speeds immensely. A problem at the core of the game.
Another thing we've seen recently is players being upset when a holiday comes around and there's no event, because despite the variety of killers in the game, DbD still seems to be lacking something for a lot of players. Adding a new mechanic feels fresh and fun, even though that addition is never perfect it seems to fill a hole. The game asks a lot of players and doesn't reward enough in return, both in terms of the amount of effort put in to win and the misery that comes with a bad match. Events offer an extra reward, and feeling rewarding is something DbD really needs. When survivors sit in a queue for 20 minutes to get a match where they spend four minutes slugged and then die with very few points, they just feel frustrated and who can blame them, that sucks. When a killer gets gen rushed and only gets a couple hooks because the survivors zenned out holding M1 all match while the killer spent the whole time frantically trying to win a chase, that sucks. Yes, we can say "git gud," but new players won't bother and won't stick around when their first experiences are nothing but misery and they could play something else that's actually fun even when first starting out.
The EGC provides some structure to matches and I think it's one of the best additions to the game since I started playing over two years ago.
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Yes, I want 12-hook games. Way more fun than slugging everyone, or not doing that and getting no kills.
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"Gameplay measures that slow the game down based on game state with no input"
But getting many hooks is a input from the killer side. This input needs to have a similar effect to tunneling. So both playstyles are viable.
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Bringing up events was more a comment about how the game is more punishing than rewarding and so we see players really latch onto the chance for more rewards. I play some other games and if their events didn't offer rewards I wouldn't care, those games are fun enough and rewarding enough as they are. DbD is not like that. A game can be more fun and less rewarding, or it can be difficult and frustrating but very rewarding for your efforts. DbD is frustrating and difficult and not very rewarding, the worst of all worlds. If they're going to keep the reward system the way it is, matches should be longer, both sides should get to participate and have fun.
Anyway, sometimes the devs try to use rewards to encourage players to play a certain way (perks like BBQ and Make Your Choice, the emblem system) but there's a tendency to punish players for not playing a certain way (DS, any slug-related survivor perk, possibly BT, and again the emblem system), and when the game encourages killers to chase injured survivors by having it be that the only benefit to a survivor being injured is that they're easier to chase, but then punishes the killer for doing so, well that just frustrates the crap out of killers. Or even when the killer does try to follow the rules: they play nice all match, don't tunnel, but then lose any chance at a kill due to DS in the late game. The game sends conflicting messages to players, and adding more punishments doesn't help that, it just confuses and frustrates all the more.
Punishing people for playing "in a way we don't like" instead of addressing the issues causing it in the first place isn't going to increase overall happiness within the game. Everyone should be able to have fun while playing optimally, and that requires changes to core gameplay.
Sorry, I seem to have gone off-topic from the original 12-hooks thing.
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12-hook games seem pretty unfeasible with gen times are they are now -and survivors really don't need to hold m1 for even looonger.
It would be nice if the killer pip system didn't revolve around 12hooks as the ideal, given that higher ranks are where you're going to be deliberately trying to elide hooks due to simply not having time in the game.
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I think Make Your Choice is way better designed than BT.
BT is abused. It was supposed to allow a person being camped a chance to get away, but in 99% of cases, it's used to facilitate what would be a farm without Borrowed Time.
Just change it to be distance AND time based. If a Killer is within X meters of the hook for X amount of seconds, BT can be proc'd. It counters Killers with no TR who are actually camping (Wraith, Insidious, GhostFace ect) but it stops Survivors from using it to unsafely unhook their teammates as soon as the Killer turns their head.
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Would be nice. My games don't usually last longer then 10 minutes. Either all gens are done under 4 minutes or they are all slugged and hooked by the 10 minute mark
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Most survivors do that because if a killer randomly downs 3 of 4 survivors and hooks them right off the bat, chances are they wont let the survivors reset and will end the match right then and there.
At least for me, if im playing killer and down 3/4 survivors, i'll walk away and let the straggler save everyone just to prolong the match.
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lets make it 16 and no suicide on hook
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Nah, I prefer 8 hooks or so. I like my games being 5-8 mins long don't wanna spend my time in the same lobby for to long
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This is one of those things where, hearing the game described, I'd think 12 hooks would be the default, but, the way it's actually played, that almost never happens.
I like evenly-matched games that take a long time, where everybody gets to do cool stuff, and there's a lot of back and forth. For me, that's the gold standard match that I wish I was getting more often.
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tunnelling is not what makes you strong, when u tunnel 3 others can do whatever they want , and even block u from tunnelling. fine if your vs-ing noobs every round it will be effective, but it makes you look unfair and u can win by other ways , being strategic and stopping certain chases or gens depending on where they are and what they are doing
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the truth is ur always on the backfoot tunnelling and camping u just dont see it that way, to u the quicker u kill that 1 guy the better, but u have little or no control over the rest of the match
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that may be the case but i wud have dbd with bt anyday over without
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Tunneling is the most effective against every player. Watch tournaments.
Sure you can win without and im not going into matches with the mindset to tunnel, but its without doubt more effective than hooking everyone.
Many killer mix tunneling with camping, but thats makes tunneling weaker. Optimal tunneling is when you not camp and wait til the survivor is unhooked. Not waiting on the hook makes it harder to find the tunnel target sometimes, but it gives you time to pressure gens and other survivors.
Another strategy is to focus on two players to have more pressure on the whole team and to ignore Strike/BT. But the downside is that they get healed after unhook.
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its not optimal play bro xD u can hook them all in any order, as long as you had the pressure u will win anyway. Its a generic method which seems like the easiest path to winning, but ultimately its a unfair way to play killer.
watch tournaments ? who cares, ive played tones on this game i can win with literally every killer without tunnelling so xD
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vs ultra try hards teams i will be maybe 2k but thats not really a loss
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Yh but everyone with experience can win as killer. Im winning with every killer and without addons most of the time. There are so many bad survivors in red ranks and one weak link can kill his whole team.
Its basic knowledge that you cant delay a match against decent survivor long enough for 12 hooks. And i mean hooking everyone twice and then start killing.
One hooked person, one is unhooking, one is getting chased and the last one is on gens. And thats when you end chases fast.
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95% of my matchs 12 hooks , no tunnel. and lol are u saying u need to tunnel to end chases fast?
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u cant delay a match ? how wud they all do gen when they are all hooked/unhooking/healing/on chase? or tunnel one good player and get gen rushed by the other 3.
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basically , if u wanna go wraith with no add ons fine , and tunnel and be unfair to at least 1 guy just because u dont wanna use add ons fineXD if thats how u play this game then fine
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i used to play hillbilly, no perks no add ons+ ebony mori , 0 tunnel , literally 12 hooks mori round with no perks. but he got mega nerfed so now i dont
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You see, that's the main issue. Nobody should be thinking in terms of <The killer should not be penalized for not tunneling and exploiting a faulty, toxic "mechanic">. People need to understand that, before anything else, videogames are meant to be fun. If survivors feel like being chased and bloodlusted for a time that would end up in them also celebrating their 90th birthday isn't fun, they'll leave. And there are not bots in this game, aside from the tutorial (yet) as far as I know. If killers feel like having to face full SWFs with broken perk combos isn't fun anymore, they'll leave. And this will end up in DEAD by Daylight connecting with the first part of the game title, the game will indeed be dead. Until people stop going for this "I want to be rewarded for not being toxic" instead of "I'm not going to be toxic, so I won't get punished" mentality, the game will stay as it is, and the community will remain one of the most toxic, obnxious one I ever saw since the days I played League of Legends.
I'm not saying that every game should end up in 12 hooks, as there are also those who DC, suicide on hook or that kind of stuff. I am just saying that the mentality needs to be widely improven.
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While it cuts the chase with most killer in half when the survivor is injured, it is not the reason why tunneling is effective. Tunneling is effective bc when one player is dead the game is alot easier.
And im not tunneling. This thread is to discuss whether players want 12-hook-games and with that to an extend whether more anti-tunneling-measures would be good.
Like i said everyone with experience can win most of the matches, but that is bc many survivor dont belong in red rank. You dont need to be here to say that you are a better killer. When that is your only purpose, then you are wasting my time.
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Like i said one at the hook, one unhooks, one in a chase. The last one can do what he wants most of the time. You can only really pressure all 4 survivor when two are disabled (hooked/slugged). And when you have this situation most of the time you have won anyway and the survivors did make a huge mistake.
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nothing wrong with stopping the gen the others are on or stopping the unhooker , if the guy goes on the gen injured infront of me thats the only time i tunnel him, and only if the gens like nearly done. or if he farms with d/s bt or something
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no ######### the games a lot easier dude ... xD thats why they call them tunneller noobs
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how is it skill vs 3 people just becvause u made it impossible for him to do anything xD its not skilled win its handycapped win
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if u do it with say leatherface or hag , the game is unplayable for that person. And for sure is not skill on your part in any way xD
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Hoping that player would choose not to be toxic (against the fun of other player) instead of encouraging them is just naive. You could die of old ages before that happens.
Sorry but this doesnt work and is not realistic.
For example do you know how the usage of some op weapons in shooter got solved? This weapons got the noob-stigma of the community and everyone flamed the user. Fighting toxicity with toxicity. Great.
And dbd is asymmetrical, where you cannot use the same things as your enemy. This make the cycle of toxicity worse.
Then theres the point that losing isnt fun, so maybe tunneling creates more fun then it hinders? Of course you need the killer fun x4. Otherwise you could argue that survivor fun is more important and the killer has always get the short end of the stick.
So why should we try the hard, unrealistic solution, when we could just solve it with an easy solution?
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Sorry but what are you even talking about?
Nobody says tunneling is skill, i said it makes the game easier = less skill.
You are missing the entire point of this thread, so i will stop replying.
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I like them, but I don’t want to be forced to have them each game.
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not about the game being fun either im assuming xD
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I would like 12 hook games if it was easier to find, drop, and hook survivors. But the reality is that good survivors that can juke, evade chases, make safe hook rescues, and do annoying garbage like flashlight blinds make this way, way harder than just pitching a tent.
Here's my reverse-ask:
Why should I pack up my tent? Other than BBQ & Chili, why shouldn't I break out the smores and watch you rot? The alternative is for me to blindly go find another survivor that I may or may not get, while the first one gets saved?
Pass.
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Yeah, I'm not saying we should just have hope on that happening. But the mindset is just wrong, and there is really no denying that. The thing is, having to provide rewards to someone, to pat his back and say "you've been a good boy, now fetch" just NOT to make him play in a toxic way, baffles me. I think the other way around should be the actual improvement, but it has to be done in a substantial and well thought way. For instance, when the Emblem penalty for camping was introduced, did that stop people who wanted to camp and play cheesily by doing so, without losing their points? Absolutely not. I have been camped from a Billy (way before his rebalancement) who stood away from me, enough so he could still see me and anybody who would eventually come save me, but not to lose any points, with his chainsaw revved. The point I am trying to make is that if you try to be good and reward people for "behaving" without instead choosing to punish them when they don't, they will always find a way to exploit both things. If you are not willing to punish unnecessary camping in a strong way, people will still keep camping, one way or another. That's way only rewarding will never work.
To be absolutely honest, I dream of a version of DbD where there is no tunneling, no camping, no DS, 2-3 players SWFs, gens take longer, doors don't spawn next to each other and no Bloodlust.
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I think a big problem is killers getting used to playing against bad/new survivors and assuming 12 hooks is the standard, then when they play against better survivors they panic and camp/tunnel.
In a game with 1 good killer against 4 good survivors a 12 hook should never happen unless the survivors let it.
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Yh currently the game isnt balanced around that.
No good MMR is really a problem. You never know how good the survivor are. I had the same problem, i played lazy bc there were so many bad survivor and i needed long matches for bloodpoints, but i think i got worse in this time.
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