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I feel like DBD has been scaring off new killers
This goes at least back to the Billy rework in my opinion. They made Billy a higher skill ceiling with his overheat mechanic and add on changes. Next they plan to give Freddy more of a skill ceiling. Not to mention the mori nerf that gave bad killers a chance to at least do decent. Its getting harder and harder now for new killers to play and excel.
I ain't referring to veteran killers by the way. You all got ruin undying which is overpowered if you know how to play the game. However if you are a new killer I feel this game is becoming more and more unwelcoming. Or maybe its just me, what you all think?
Edit: I forgot the matchmaking issues. Yeah that definitely takes the cake for the new players biggest struggle.
Comments
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"gave bad killers a chance to at least do decent."
first of all, if you're doing bad you shouldn't deserve a kill in the first place. The mori nerf was a good change.
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In a game where there is no tutorial and these players are often being thrown to high ranks, yes, there should be something to allow them training wheels until they figure out how to play the game.
Not saying that the mori nerf didn't need to happen, but it did help out lower skill players in dealing with people whom they shouldn't be playing with. And I think the OP's point in bringing that up was that new players have zero training wheels and it makes for a very hostile experience that drives many away.
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I'd say that right now the most punishing thing for new killers is the lack of any sort of decent matchmaking. New killers go up against veteran survivors, get their ass stomped, earn like no BP so they can't even unlock perks to help them out, and what, they're expected to just play through that? I don't understand why any new killer would stick around.
New survivors don't necessarily have a good time either. The lack of matchmaking means plenty of them are going against experienced killers, so they're waiting in a 20 minute queue for a 1 minute match where they have no fun whatsoever.
If matchmaking worked as it should and had people of similar skill playing with each other, then the other stuff could be worked out. If the strength of all killers depended on the skill of the person playing them, as should be the case, then that would be perfect because the killer would not be going against survivors who are so skilled that it takes an easy, superpowered monster to stand any chance.
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Well, my friend who just bought the game (week ago) won't play the killer role anymore, throwing into red ranks and constant bullying did it
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"often" like 1/10 matches ? Also, its not an issue if they're getting high rank survivors sometimes - as a matter of fact, that's good
they'll get a taste of how high rank survivors play, which it ain't a big difference because the general IQ between rank 1 survivors is below average.
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i would say new players in general have a bad time getting into this game. It’s of course different if you start with friends that are experienced in SWF but being a new soloQ surv is not any better than new killer player.
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I feel. I started playing last March (2020) and I struggle a lot with playing killers such as Hillbilly, Nurse, Huntress, Deathslinger, Blight, and others to a point where I just think that I’m just bad as killer. I’m okay as other killers but not good with certain ones. I wish they’d do something where it would help people like me be able to practice these “higher skill” killers so I don’t look like an ass trying to saw through a tree when I aim for a survivor.
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So, you'd like a new player to go up against someone who likely has at least 400 more hours than them? My brother recently picked up DBD again, and I've watched him play. He gets a Purple Rank or above in roughly 6/10 matches.
Should we match Rank 20 Survivors against Rank 1 Killers so that they can "get a taste of how high ranked Killers play?"
Of course not. Your argument is completely ridiculous. New players should play with other new players.
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This game needs a real tutorial mode so bad. There are some skills that help all killers and there are other killer-specific skills that really could use a good training mode. Back when I was trying to learn Nurse, I must've played dozens of matches where all I did was blink around without ever even glancing in a survivor's direction. I'm sure that was tons of fun for the survivors, but it's not like there was any other way for me to learn blinking.
The game throws killers into the deep end with no guidance whatsoever (the tutorial they have right now is so useless). The intuitive way to play killer includes tunneling and camping, but the way to win as killer is to pressure gens, and the tutorial gives no hint of that at all.
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its not ridiculous lol, you will eventually get players 4+ ranks above your current rank
and it does NOT happen all the time, and you literally exaggerated a lot by stating that we """""""""should"""""""" match rank 20 survivors with rank 1 killers
that doesn't happen since 2017, and that's that. You will go against good survivors eventually, fact. You will get high rank killers such as 11-7 if you're 13, fact. The rank fluctuates but it doesn't fluctuate up to 10 RANKS. Your examples are completely ridiculous.
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I don’t see why, killer is actually really strong when you first start playing.
Then the higher you go ruin+undying+tinkerer does the job for you.
new map reworks with huge dead zones and unsafe pallets.
honestly if you arnt playing against a sweat squad swf, you should be getting kills.
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I've gotten red rank survivors as a rank 17 killer. It absolutely happens. Not years ago, now. The game's matchmaking is practically turned off when survivor queues get long, it throws new players (both survivors and killers) to the wolves to get players into matches. It's a problem. Unskilled killers should not be put up against highly skilled survivors. A game should be a fun challenge, not an ass stomping. Most players are not going to stick around and play through that, they're going to have numerous miserable matches and say screw it, and queues for this game will get worse. DbD needs players to stick around long enough to improve.
I have seen red rank survivors come on these forums and complain about going up against grey and yellow rank killers, as well. They don't have fun going through an entire match not interacting with the killer, because that's exactly what happens. They waited through a 20 minute queue to do gens. Players want a challenge. The majority of players are not happy when matchmaking just throws anyone and everyone together.
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"Also, its not an issue if they're getting high rank survivors." You literally just said that it doesn't matter, so why shouldn't we match new players against veterans? Unless, of course, that getting constantly stomped on by people isn't fun and conducive to a good experience.
It actually still happens. Either the MM screws up or their is a SWF. Rank takes the average of the 4 Survivors and tries to find a Killer within a few ranks of you. If your average Rank is 8, then the ideal Killer would be 6-10, for example.
However, since there are so many Survivors in Red Ranks, this often gets expanded to include more populous Ranks of Killers, which is why Rank 18 Killer's get matched with either Purple or Red Ranked Survivors fairly frequently.
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Matchmaking will probably be the biggest culprit.
You'd be surprised how often a low rank killer will run into green ranks, or higher.
Not just teams of them, but people powerleveling their homies. Neither one are likely to show mercy, or care they're stomping a 1 perk killer.
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Dead by Daylight has been around for a few years now, everyone is a pro or they watch a YouTube video and know how to act like pros
It is hard being a new anything in a game with years on it
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I don't think you can really call a perk combo OP if it can be removed entirely in as few as two bones if you're lucky. I kinda agree with the rest of the post though.
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As a new killer, I definitely get the feeling that there is a focus on making killers harder to play. The Billy nerf, ignoring long-running killer bugs like all the places where Nurse can't blink for some reason, Haddonfield... it certainly makes it feel like the object is to make things more difficult for killers. If they go through with the "No more Bloodlust" patch they tested it'll make things really difficult for a beginner killer - I get looped to the point where I have to break off as gens start falling all the time and saying "Get Gud" doesn't help when there's no opportunity to learn when you're massively outclassed both in skill and perk/addons from the survivors.
I fully acknowledge that it takes time to develop skills (and no, you can't just watch a Youtube video and do well against skilled survivors) and I can definitely say that the Matchmaking needs to be fixed as so many times I've faced a team of 3 red-ranks and one brown when I'm level 16-17. It's truly disheartening.
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Hey remember that matchmaking doesn't work with brown and greens going up against red ranks all the time, but no need to throw a bone to the newer player that are getting stomped, oh wait they're leaving en masse 😱.
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YES! PREACH 🙌🏼
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same can be said about escapes and keys mon ami
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The game is so much easier for new killers than new survivors, and it's not even close.
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Thats fair, oh by the way, DS BT DH and UB would like a word with you. After all if you are doing bad you shouldnt get the escape in the first place
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I couldn't agree more. I started up a second account on Xbox (my main account is on PlayStation) and I use the second account to test out Killers I generally don't play with. Last night I played my very first Ghostface match. I was rank 20, and only had three level one perks to my name. Everyone else was purple rank, and had maxed out perks. After the experience I just had, had I been a new player, I never would have even considered playing another game.
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True same reason keys should be nerfed too because it only helps bad survivors just like moris helped bad killers. It sucks on both parties when you are doing so well then boom mori ez game or boom key ez game.
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It isnt just new killers just trying different killers even if you are seasoned is terrible due too the rank system. New players also dont have access too many useful perks so even if they do well once they hit purple they are DOA. With killers you are solo so you could get a match with 3 survivors like you but odds are at least one of the is going to be specced to bait, save, heal, ect
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Its not just new killers its old killers too and whats so ######### stupid is its for survivors but all they do is make the survivor side worse! They just nerf the ######### that makes playing killer worse, that's not the same as making survivor better! It makes survivors worse because it makes killers play in less fun ways to try and win, making the game worse for everyone! I just don't get what kind of balance that is
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Lmao acting like anyone was talking about going against someone only 4(ish) ranks above yours. People are literally talking about going up against players who are 10+ ranks above them.
Hell, I bought DBD on a new PS4 account to play with my Fiance and I've been matched with people above rank 8 when playing solo. I am currently rank 18. Matchmaking is a mess and it helps no one.
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If you don't tunnel and camp, if you don't run meta perks and addons, top tier killers, etc....
Survivors will mercilessly bully you, insult you in post game, call you a tunneller/camper anyways, chain stun you and tea bag you on the way out and then tell you how bad you are.
So I mean it's no wonder so many killers turn toxic as hell or just quit playing.
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The toxicity in this game is caused by "survivor mains" that don´t even touch killer in x hundreds of hours of playing.
I played like 50/50 with 1k hours each (solo survivor and mostly billy + nurse), and i was insulted in like 80% of my killer games, and got stalked for months on steam.
When i played solo survivor i have almost never seen a killer that started some toxic bullshit in the chat. I really didnt...
I am probably the most toxic killer player i know, up to a point where i got 2 temp ingame bans because I even started to find glitches to bully survivors due to the toxicity i faced.
After my bans they immediately fixed these glitches within days, because they had video evidence. That should tell you something.
Post edited by bkn on6 -
For real, even playing as survivor a lot of the toxic survivors are the biggest problem I have.
the toxic AF survivors I just had are kinda why I stopped playing the game for over a year before. They are just the worst people usually.
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Sucks trying to talk friends into playing this game. Taking newbie survivors into a SWF can help some as i explain what to do when, and what the killer can do. Luckily my rank hasn't been screwing up the lovely matchmaking, and I die getting everyone else out.
So they learn some, and the newbie killer learns some, but it's a poor azz substitute for a thorough tutoral. And it doesn't really prepare anyone for solo play either.
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Kinda glad console doesn't have the chat box yet...
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It's my favorite thing about console players. It's why they are better than PC players imo, I'll take take them over PC any day.
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You said something nice about console.... I don't know what to say............. hmmmm ty
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Well for now haha, supposedly crossplay will get chat someday down the line. When that happens I'll probably hate them as much as I hate most of the PC players too haha.
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Here a quick summary of the past months:
- Old killers switched to the more relaxing survivor role or simply left to play something else.
- Matchmaking tries it's best to get red rank survivors a quick match, but ends up matching them against new killers.
- new killers get rofl stomped and decide it's not worth the effort.
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Well it feels like the game itself is slugged and bleeding out since the new broken and unfinished chapter and the isolated moris nerf (necessary as it may have been) without equilibrium feels like an additional kick in the nuts for some people.
It's funny that many people argument that behaviour tries to keep the side with more potential income (survivor) happy but on the other hand the also necessary smaller side of killer starts to dwindle.
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You're totally right. I'll be honest, I think I'm a rather good killer main. I've adepted every killer but Nurse. I play on console. I wish they had an empty training wheels map just so I could blink around and really get to know her. Every time I play her I blink into walls and blink into the basement and just all over. I'm the worst Nurse you will ever see. I just want an area where I don't feel that I'm wasting people's time trying to GET GOOD.
Now that I have to try and reclaim my Adept trophies again on PS5 as they don't carry over from the PS4 I want to make an honest go at getting hers. That being said she is at the bottom of the to-do list as she's just way too tough. It just amounts to me putting on her Match Box add on and turning her into a m1 killer, ugh.
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Look you've got a point. I do think they are making some things harder for newer players but A) it's often for good reason and B) they are making things easier simultaniously. Look how much easier bubba and doctor are for new players to begin with now, great first picks and killers I would reccomend starting out on.
Also if you weren't around before the billy rework then you never would have experienced billy without a cooldown so technically you wouldn't know any different, even tho it does suck.
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I don't think Bubba is easier for newer Killers now.
LF has to manage his stacks correctly, otherwise, you waste them and are basically playing him how he was played before the change.
Besides, he's DLC and most new players aren't going to buy him before they play a bit.
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Since you don't have to stance change with the Doctor he is mostly easier. He did have passive Madness generation before but once you started changing your stance then things would get more complicated.
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lol DLC killers for new players
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I enjoy playing killer because I hate jump scares and being chased. Tutorial barely helped and most of what I learned is through playing the game and stream/videos.
There's no way to practice killers and strategies so in general it deters killers from even branching out to uncomfortable territory.
Now that I'm getting the hang of the game, understanding the perks, strategy is naturally forming but it took months of trial and error to get here tbh. Then to try a new killer keeps you at the higher rank vs. Resetting.
I'm currently rank 16 btw, so I'm still learning what I like and don't like as far as killers but right now I enjoy Doctor and Twins.
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The toxic survivor problem is a super interesting one a lot of asymetric games face. Low key, especially in the 2017 era of DBD, it was not an accident that the survivor community was so toxic. A big problem with asymetric game design is there is a huge incentive to cater play to the 'many' crowd and DBD got a big reputation for basically letting your 4 friends bully one person.
The game definitely pulled up from diving into that cesspool because of collective community action that made it super clear (along with the first launch of Deathgarden crashing and burning because they went WAY too hard making that a hunter bullying sim. Imagine if you could get flashlighted every 3 seconds no matter what, your gun got turned off every 3 seconds no matter what, ect, it is like those bad reddit meme perks that are like 'fingerguns, stun the killer for 20 seconds, 5 second cooldown) that wouldn't continue to be sustainable. But that element of the community persists.
I think the big problem with the new killer experience is bad 'matchmaking.' Specifically, it isn't that matchmaking is bad, but survivors are currently in an overbuffed state meaning that the pool is completely saturated at the high end as moderately skilled survivor play takes a disproportionate amount of killer skill to beat. This means two things: One is that new killers are more likely to be matched against moderate to good survivors, and it means even moderate killers need to 'work harder' than survivors at their own level. When a newbie killer is matched against survivors actually of equal skill to them, because the skill floor of survivor is higher, the survivors do really poorly, but the skill ceiling of survivors is waaaaaaaaay higher than the skill ceiling of most killers, so killers need to squeeze every bit of mastery they have into their play to counter moderately good survivors. This is because so much of the killer's gameplay is hard limited by binary mechanics and absolute limits on their ability to act that survivors just don't face. So even though the upper end of killer power is literally unstoppable, even high tier killer is extremely hard and frustrating.
So its a way more complex issue than 'survivors op' or 'killers op.' Its why balancing by winrates doesn't make sense either. Most of what killers need are A: More punishments for low skill suboptimal survivor play that is currently extremely powerful, like mindless linked strong loops, which is why we are seeing so many map changes that create large deadzones that 'unlink' strong loops and thus require you to actually know how to mindgame to end any given loop segment with enough distance to get to the next one (sorry, ormond is still survivor sided at rank 1, its just way more fair than it used to be and requires actual loop execution to utilize. Like the survivor equivalent of running nurse), and B: A LOT of quality of life changes that make the killer experience less frustrating even if you lose.
Like that second one is the biggest to me. There is an absurd amount of stuff in the game designed to ensure survivors never get their precious feelings hurt, but killers just gotta sit and take it. The introduction of end game collapse to prevent survivors taking games hostages is a fantastic example: It took forever because it was a killer sided emotive issue which means automatically 'not a priority because they aren't the moneymakers,' and the solution was very clearly designed to STILL allow Survivors to be huge jerks for no reason, when all that was really required was a concede button.
They actively gave themselves more work to ensure survivors could bully killers, and then people wonder why the survivor Q is so long and so broken!
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I'm sorry OP, but Freddy definitely needed a skill cap. The fact that BHVR let new Freddy into the game and waited over a year to really nerf him is kinda insulting to survivors. Freddy is the only killer in the game that has everything in his kit (Anti-Loop/Anti-Gen, etc...) with absolutely no consequences to bad play and no real counter.
I cannot wait for that nerf.
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I still can’t believe the mobile version got a Training Mode while PC and console DbD did not.
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Disagree.
The game has become increasingly killer-friendly over the years. This game was hardcore survivor-sided 4 years ago. They've made the game much fairer for killers over the years. Tons of changes have been to the benefit of killers - removal of vacuum palettes, addition of bloodlust, auto window blocking, endgame collapse, brighter maps, brighter clothing, complete rework of maps to remove god loops, the list is endless. Most recent change that isn't a general change to the way the game works? Undying. Ridiculously OP perk. Believe me, killers have it easier than ever in the past four years this game has been running.
They've also tried to make it so killers aren't braindead and OP with little effort. Which is a good thing and not a bad thing. Entry level killers can still killer entry level survivors pretty easy. The game is a lot easier for beginner killers than it is for beginner survivors. Meanwhile the killer abilities are being made more skill-based so you ahve higher levels of power available later on when you get better at the game. This makes ranking matter so that killers at low ranks theoretically can fight less able survivors and not dominate, while as you go up in ranks your mastery of your powers gets better. (Theoretically -- this is not the case right now with the broken matchmaking and ranking system).
But it is not a bad thing to make killer powers more skill-based with higher skill ceilings.
That said the game in general is hard to get into for new players, on either side. That's because it's an old game and you will not be matching up against new players ing eneral. You'll be matching up with people who have been playing this game for a while.
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I think weak killers and bad map design are the biggest turnaways when it comes to new players choosing killer. Strong killers can still manage on good maps for survivors, but weak killers can not do anything if the survivors are good.
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Doctor can be obtained with shards and leatherface is the cheapest killer dlc.
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At the end of the day new players won't be using bubba's chainsaw to travel 20m+ and get instadowns on good loopers where possible, they'll be using it to break pallets and catch those rank 20 survivors who run into walls and stuff. Although bubba probably isn't the easiest killer, once you understand how his charges work it's pretty easy to get the hang of him, especially if you have basic game knowledge from survivor and other killers.
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Here's my problem with the toxic survivor argument though, it's a problem with the individual players not survivor as a whole, and killer's can be just as toxic to new survivors if they want and compeltely ruin their game experience and any chance of learning or getting better, it is not a survivor only issue, it's a problem with the game as a whole.
Sure tiles were very busted, especially when there was infinites/double pallets etc, but where do you draw the line to stop nerfing survivor loops, because if they are continued to be nerfed, you will reach a point where there's nothing you can do to stop a good killer as survivor. Deadzones are no skill and boring for both sides, i would rather outplay a survivor at shack or a jungle gym (mindgameable and balanced loops) than hold w and catch survivors who have nothing else to do but hold w themselves. Insanely unsafe pallets also suck because there's no thought proccess or stategic thinking for me as killer to catch them at those loops, just walk around if they pull the pallet or a quick double back if they try to loop the extremely short loop.
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