It is so disappointing to see the difference in strength with killers
(Not including nurse since we all know how strong she is)
Let's just compare the Wraith and Oni's base kit (no addons) for reference.
What does the virgin Wraith have for his power?
The Wraith is a stealth killer who has a bell that he can use to cloak himself. During the cloak, the Wraith gains undetectable status effect for as long as he is cloaked. Survivors can hear the bell ringing when in a range of 24 meters away from the Wraith, they can also hear a wisping sound when in a range of 40 meters away from the Wraith...He is not fully invisible though, you can see him across the map when he is cloaked... He moves at 126% movement speed when he is cloaked, which is exactly 11% faster than he is not... It takes 3 seconds to uncloak and when you fully uncloak you gain a boost in movement speed for one second. Finally, he is fully invisible when standing still.
Now, what does the chad Oni have for his power?
The Oni is a killer whose power allows him to enter blood fury. To enter this mode, the Oni needs to fill up his power bar by sucking up blood orbs. The blood orbs are dropped from injured survivors every few seconds or when they perform most actions (being hooked, vaulting, dropping a pallet, crouching, and failing a skill check) and can be seen through walls. The oni also gains 40% of his power instantly by hitting a healthy survivor or a survivor with the endurance status effect. Once the Oni has the power bar filled up, he can choose to enter blood fury mode. This state lasts 45 seconds and allows the Oni access to two special abilities, demon dash and demon strike. Demon dash is performed by holding the secondary action button for two seconds. The Oni then begins running at a speed of 195% movement speed (Do NOT hold w when dashing because it actually slows you down, same for spamming a and d). Demon strike allows the Oni to perform demon strike which instantly puts survivors in the dying state. This can also be done during demon dash.
I think it is safe to say that there is a clear difference between different killers' powers in the game. Seriously, I wonder "Why would I ever play this guy at the high ranks?" sometimes. I still do because their concept is fun to me. Same for Clown, the idea behind the power is there it's just weak and not expanded upon.
What does Wraith have to get around the map? Nothing. His movement speed increase while cloaked is not enough. In fact, unless you are going to the complete opposite side of the map there really is no reason to cloak other than to hide from an object of obsession user. What does he have to help him catch survivors in a chase? nothing, unless you count the burst in speed when you uncloak which only helps on unsafe pallet loops.
But look at Oni, the dude has both. He has the ability to run around the map (better than billy btw) and be dangerous in a chase. He IMO, is the most balanced killer right now. You can still win against him and have 3 or 4 escapes, he is only really good if the player playing as him is skilled, and his power is a "power burst" kind of ability. This means the tides can tip fast for either side depending on who plays better or outsmarts the other person in a chase.
Even with the upcoming buffs to both Wraith and Clown, I feel like they are still going to need a bit more than just a few buffs, I mean a full-on rework. What I don't want them to be is just an average killer like Plague or Doctor in the middle tier. For Wraith idk give him some sort of passive ability I guess? Maybe every time survivors hear the bell ring they suffer from some sort of passive status effect that gets stronger as the trial goes on. Just some random thought but he will still need more than "true invisibility" and a few addons being base kit and changed. For Clown, I am clueless other than giving him different effects with his bottles.
Note: So after some thought and discussion, I have come up with the suggestion of instead of completely reworking all killers to be viable, they should instead get some buffs (not lazy ones) that are thorough and make the killer receiving said buffs to be able to be put in a mid-tier position.
I really hope that the Wraith and Clown will be given creative buffs or changes that create unique and fun gameplay.
Comments
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I don't really think looking at killers without add-ons is the way to go. If you run BBQ even somewhat regularly you can basically always be running greens and purples. Oni doesn't really get anything crazy add-on wise besides topknot.
But wraith has a ton of really fun stuff to use.
Silent bell wallhack wraith on an indoor map is amazing. And if the D hope goes off? 1 shots into mori's from complete stealth, from around corners. Disgusting. Way more powerful than Oni would be with 5 stacks.
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Of course, I love using stuff like this on Wraith and it is super fun. But the problem is that even this against a team who knows what they are doing regardless of being in a SWF you will still struggle to kill anyone. With the best addons for wraith (Purple windstorm + coxcombed clapper) he will still suck on an open map. Devour hope is pretty high-risk high reward too. Maps are mostly survivor or killer sided as well, such as lery's.
It feels like Wraith needs at least 3 different addons to be able to use him while cloaked well. Sure you could do very well with the build described above, but this is not consistent. What if you start up in one of the farm maps? Or the Macmillian?
I compared the two without addons because I wanted to show the difference and usefulness of their power without getting really into it. With addons these killers are changed quite a bit, just look at the scalped topknot for Oni or the bone clapper for Wraith.
Also, I also don't think that killers should have a few addons that really change their power (except for the ultra rares). The fact that the windstorm addons have such a huge impact on Wraith says something about his core design. I feel like any killer should be changed to the point where they perform just fine without addons, addons should be what really makes killers pop out. Just not super crazy. For example, the Huntress's belts that give her more hatchets.
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I don't think it's fair to compare killer's powers directly. They are not competing against each other, but against a team of survivors. Yes, Wraith is very dependent on addons, but you also need to ponder that he was conceived in the beginning of the game and is a very friendly to new players. Wraith teaches players macro knowledge without requiring deep mechanical skills and for that he serves well.
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It's not like you are ever constrained to one killer. I play Hag with browns/yellows usually but then go dump the points into a killer who actually needs them.
And with a really strong basekit you get some killers with lame add-ons. I love playing Pyramid Head but good lord are the add-ons trash/boring. Oni is another one like that, pretty boring add-ons for the most part. It's not like Myers/Wraith/Blight/etc where they completely change up the game.
Clown is pretty junk without add-ons but the second you give him ether or bleach he's a monster.
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Yes, I can understand why he is the way he is due to him being outdated, but I would love if they changed him to be more viable but still really simple. A few creative changes and buffs could go a long way. But what are some things that he could teach a new player about the killer side of the game specifically? He should be more than just a starter character.
Post edited by Yords on4 -
Don't forget that you can see the aura of blood orbs through objects, giving Oni some built in tracking.
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Yeah forgot about that, but there is yet another thing that Oni has.
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Well unless you've been living under a rock (which I doubt because you seem very opinionated), they confirmed that Clown was getting a rework and Wraith would be getting buffs 'soontm'.
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I did mention that I did know that they are getting changes btw. I just am really hoping for them to be good changes, and I am questioning if they will be enough.
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Ah okay, I kind of whizz through posts if they seem too long in my opinion, so I try and find samples of it without taking it out of context so I can leave my comment on it
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Yeah, p head's addons are good but just ehhhh not the best. His range addons are the best ones that actually make him a bit scarier. But I don't restrict myself to just Wraith, I just would like him to be more viable is all.
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lol its fine
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Its fine that Killers have different Power Levels. If you compare Wraith and Oni, you should also acknowledge that playing Wraith is easier than playing Oni.
It is fine to have Killers who are strong and Killers who are weaker, especially when they are more simple to play. The only difference are Freddy and Spirit, both are not hard to play (with Freddy being the easiest Killer) with the strength they have.
So its good that there are Killers which you basically can pick up and play without having to study them before, but it is also fine if those are not the strongest Killers.
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Yeah I don't really mind it, and the weaker killers end up having some of the most fun add-ons. All the recent killers have pretty boring add-ons except Blight. I never get excited putting points into Pyramid Head, but Clown it's like candy in a shop. Bleach + Ether 15% bottles? Yes please. A couple meters more on punishment of the damned? Meh.
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I disagree on it being okay to have killers with different power levels. People most of the time find killers fun who are also effective at doing their job, ie killing. If you have killers who are weaker it will drive people away from them the higher the ranks they go. This means you will only see the same killers at the high ranks, Oni's, spirit's, p heads, etc. This creates rather stale gameplay in some people's eyes. I myself would also like to see more killers that are actually threatening at the high ranks. Even a really good player who decides to play someone like pig will get destroyed against survivors who know that they are just an m1 killer and take advantage of that.
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Every killer is more than viable into solo Q teams. The latest stats released showed a very healthy mix of killers played at red ranks. Pig actually had one of the highest kill rates for whatever reason. Probably because every red rank pig runs double head pop add-ons which turns the power into an RNG mori if you are on the hook when the timer starts.
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Every Killer can be played at Rank 1. And personally, I prefer M1-Killers over Killers like Spirit. Not only does it feel like the Survivors have actually a chance to win, but I also feel better when I win, since I outplayed them and did not press M2 into a Hit.
So maybe it is "most of the time", but certainly not for me. Like, my Main Killer is Pig and in general I prefer Killers who are more basic.
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I see the point you are trying to make, but this data is not really that reliable. And no, I am pretty sure not every red rank pig runs those addons. The data shown above only takes into account the kind of ranks we are dealing with, the killers picked, and the average kill rate. It doesn't take into account strong perks for the survivors those killers faced, such as DS. Nor does it take info from people such as SWF groups and the type of map they were put in. I guess you could say that a weak killer is viable against solo survivors, but even then you will struggle as someone like Trapper or Wraith. Solo queuing survivors are not as helpless as they seem. Also what about DC's, or people killing themselves on hook? I don't mean to come off as rude btw.
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But that's using purple and pink add-ons. Oni is just as good as that at base.
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Tbh I feel that way more about perks on both sides than I do as killer.
So many useless trash perks, and you have to grind through 3 levels for each of them for no real reason beyond having a grind. Unlike killers you KNOW they are not very useful very clearly and they can be fixed so easily, but just are not for some reason....
More and more perks are added, FAR faster than old ones are made viable.
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The thing is, are you actually outplaying them, or are the survivors just making mistakes? For example on the coldwind farm, it is pretty easy to loop a killer for ages on shack since you can see through the walls. The killer can still mindgame you, but if you are playing it well then the killer will not be able to take a hit until you run away to another tile. Now, there are some people who haven't fully learned how to play certain tiles correctly, once they do there is not much you can do about it. Sure you could moonwalk or do other mindgames like fake going one way, but once the survivor knows what to do and what to look out for it can feel pretty helpless sometimes. A lot of the time during a chase, you aren't really outplaying the survivors, you are just hoping they make a mistake.
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I’m actually hoping they DON’T take Clown changes too far. I.e. I hope mechanically he still operates the same. Far too many still underestimate how powerful limiting/taking away the survivors mobility and evasive options is.
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That is another thing. But if all killers were very strong, you could probably still do well without good perks. But yeah, perks should definitely be looked at.. you know.... among other things
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If you always think you only got a Hit because Survivors made mistakes, you should quit playing DBD; lol.
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Yeah me too. I feel like just giving him lethality and a little extra spice is necessary. The real counter to him is dropping pallets early and slamming gens. Like seriously, if it is a decent pallet what can you do as clown? Nothing, you break the pallet and continue chasing.
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It still shows that every killer is more than capable of winning at red ranks. I play a ton of different killers at red rank, including the ones people consider weak. Sure, you will have problems taking an M1 killer into a 4 man meta SWF; but most players are not god loopers or anything. Against an average SWF you can do fine. I also think it's up to the player to choose perks that will compliment their playstyle instead of slapping on ruin undying and expecting to win every game.
You can watch this guy win almost every single game as perkless / addonless clown at rank 1.
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You can't expect 20 killers all with a different power to be similar in strength. like how is a killer like pig who is mainly for stalling supposed to be equal to nurse a heavy chase killer.
There are only so many concepts for chase based powers(the strongest) before they become too similar and it's pretty difficult to make two completely different powers such as Oni's and Wraith's equal in viability. There will always be a few that are just better than the others as well as a few that are worse.
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I think comparing Wraith to Oni is a bit like comparing apples to oranges due to how vastly different their playstyles are. A better comparison imo would be between Wraith and Ghost Face as they're both Stealth killers with few chasing tools.
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I didn't say that you only get hits if survivors make mistakes. I said most of the time against someone who knows what they are doing, you will struggle to hit them, and usually the only time you will hit them is if they misplay a tile. It is different for each killer. For example, as huntress, you can predict a vault and get a hit using a hatchet. As Oni, strafing during a demon dash and listening for the survivor movement can get you a hit. As pyramid head, if you are good at aiming the shockwave then you can get some pretty nasty hits. What about Wraith? He has to rely on a lunge to get a hit at a loop. I am not saying you will never get a hit if the survivors don't make mistakes, I am saying most of the time you will struggle. Just look at some of the ridiculous tiles that can spawn in favor of survivors on average.
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I’ve never done perkless and add on-less, but I frequently go totally add on-less as Clown, and do silly things like only equip one perk like Mindbreaker, or Zanshin, or Monstrous Shrine 😂
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Maybe. I feel like comparing a killer with good mobility and chase potential and a killer without either (or at least a really weak variation of it) would be best to show how it is a bit ridiculous how certain killers are just more expanded upon over others. As for gf and wraith, that might have been a good comparison, but I chose Oni and Wraith because they were much different. Sure they have different playstyles, but they both contrast quite well in terms of what they have in their kits.
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Alright, I see. So weak killers are still viable in solo queue and even against an average SWF. But what about the good ones? I see that the weaker ones are still viable, but honestly, it was only because the survivors were not the best going against someone who clearly knows what to do. You are practically helpless as a clown against a SWF running all meta perks. The only reason you would even dream of getting a 4k is that they messed up really badly, or became overly-altruistic. So most of the time you can safely assume that you will do well because of solo queue, but if a proper mmr system was implemented this would just not be the case at all. Also, it seems that the guy in this video was facing a lot of noobs which I guess proves your point about most survivors being bad. But my concern are the good ones, if they don't mess you you are screwed.
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I like doing silly stuff like this too. I have said before that I like to play doctor with hangman's trick (or forced penance), iron grasp, agitation, and mad grit.
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I don't expect them to be, but I wish they were. We all know how BHVR is and this is just a discussion. I guarantee you there are different concepts that are really bizarre and creative, but just haven't been thought of yet. What if instead of Wraith at most having good mobility (using both windstorm addons) he had something that could give him a variation of this that is pretty much both of course with some sort of drawback. Look at p head for example. If he has 3 gen set up and someone forces him into a chase on the other side of the map, he can send them to a cage which brings that person back to the 3 gen disrupting everyone there. This doesn't give him pressure through being fast, but rather sending a practically hooked person to the other side of the map. Seriously, you have to admit that was pretty creative. Though this would only work if the survivor was tormented which is his drawback, or weakness I guess.
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Sort of agree but your statement about Wraith needing more than just a couple of add-ons as default is kinda wrong imo. With just windstorm Wraith goes from complete garbage to good. Which is why I hope they're not just making him invisible from a distance with his upcoming buffs. All he needs is a faster movement speed up to between yellow and green windstorm levels and he instantly becomes a good killer. I really hope they listen to the community on this one just this once, I might actually start playing Wraith again. Ever since I ran out of windstorm add-ons on him he's become unplayable, and I need to put BPs in other killers.
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Having most killers being average is kind of boring no? I guarantee you that most people like killers who are fun to play as well as strong and effective. Having most of the roster being meh as they are now but a little worse is not that great. Seriously, all you would see are the good ones. There is no problem with them but it is just "Ugh I wish I went against some new killers, I have to play the same as I did last time again. I wish we had some variety". I did mention Plague and Doctor being average, but that is just it, they really are average. For Doc all you do is pre throw pallets and predict his shocks. For Plague, only cleanse when it is really inconvenient for the killer and if she has no corrupted pools then just don't cleanse.
I wouldn't say he could never be buffed to Oni's level. Instead, I would say that it would be really hard. I feel like giving Wraith some sort of skill would help with this. A new player could still understand him and play him decently, but a good player could play him to his fullest. How would I do this? I have absolutely no clue. But it is not impossible. For example, look at the Huntress. Even a new huntress can land some shots by playing a few games.
You might be right though I don't really know what the best course of action would be. But does anyone really?
Giving the Wraith windstorm and true invisibility is a great start. Who knows right now? I could be totally wrong and this could be really good for him, but right now we don't. We can make a prediction though because we are dealing with BHVR on this.
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You might be right. Having a windstorm base kit would probably be good enough as it is, but he still needs more. He could also use better addons as well. He is good with windstorm but not good enough with just that alone. Allowing survivors to not see him from a range of 16 meters would be a good change because it is pretty lame how survivors can just see you across the map while "undetectable".
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Actually, the devs mentioned that they were playing with the idea of Wraith being completely invisible. We don't know if they committed to the idea, but they mentioned the possibility.
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So, if the guy is going into like 50 games as perkless / addonless clown, against red rank survivors, and winning like 47 of the matches or something; it's not viable to play clown because of the 2 or 3 good teams you run across? Yes when you hit the meta object SWF it's going to be painful, but whatever. You can probably still manage a 2k, which is a draw and balanced in the eyes of the devs.
If you only care about 4king every game you can just play Spirit / Nurse / Freddy /etc. Not every killer needs to be Spirit level.
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Yeah, I think they are going to implement a certain range of being able to see the Wraith while cloaked which sounds great.
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I feel like we already have a shortage of killers, or at least a little less than we should. Just look at the average survivor queue time.
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Sorry, I forgot that I didn't edit that. I forgot to say that it would actually be fine after watching a little bit of that guy, that okay yeah average killers might not be as bad as I thought. If we won't be able to fully rework most killers to be high on the tier list, then we could at least give most of the killers just a lil' bit of a buff or two so they are just a bit more viable than before. Since that guy did get quite a bit of 4k's with clown, I guess killers don't need as much of an overhaul to their powers at least right now.
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I was on board with this till you said oni is balanced then I had a huge laugh, as a solo que player 9/10 when I got against oni he just ruins my team then I either hatch or die right with them, it doesn't help that there's literally only like 1 map onis bad on the rest he shines super nova, as for the big difference in killers I agree nurse pyra slinger spirit freddy and oni are huge compared to the rest of the scrap heap sadly
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Okay well, Oni is balanced. He is very strong but it isn't impossible to outplay him. What you should do is take advantage of his shortcomings. For example, if he decides to dash and you just passed a wall, hide just past the corner. He will have to stop dashing to hit you or miss a swing to get you. If you are found first, just drop every pallet early and take no chances to greed. He will not get a hit on you if you play it safe meaning it will take him a long time to get his power. It is hard in solo queue, but not impossible. I myself have faced quite a few oni's and it was challenging but not impossible. The Oni thing you have to worry about is the skill of your otherwise trash solo queue teammates.
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Wraith was already buffed, he's already over performing as is, so it looks like he may have to be looked into further
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Wraith is getting another change... again. Sadly I think their change is just going to be invisibility and inabiltiy to light-burn wraith(similar to how trapper's trap cannot be sabotage anymore) . Stealth killers are huge gimmick in the game.
Their specialization relies on getting first hits but their issue is that they have to do this twice in really small time frame. Its too easy to abuse health states against them to over-commit to generators than just loop them as normal M1's as injured if they ever over commit to a chase. In short, Stealth isn't viable play style in the game at top-level and never ever has been.
Oni is m1 killer at the start, but when he gets his power, he gains instant down but more importantly, he gains mobility that is functional in loops, which allows him to outplay people in safe loops or at least force pallet drops. Generic mobility like Billy,Demo or like Freddy TP or Wraith Windstorm is not what makes a killer excel, if anything that stuff is just icing on the cake. Its their ability to use that ability to outplay people at loops and Oni fits the checklist perfectly. Wraith doesn't fit that checklist. Its simple as that. Maybe one day stealth will be like really scary if it becomes hard to heal against them and not easy to gen rush them but that is not present the game. For now wraith is scooby doo to face which will probably be for entire life cycle for DBD i think.
Post edited by Devil_hit11 on1 -
Seldom discussed topic. I call it the killer-tier-gap. Worth discussing as much as the solo-swf-cwf gap.
I think buffing the weaker killers can go a long way unless they overdo it. Buffing the bottom will not change much unless they overdo it and the buffed killer becomes the new spirit lol
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..Over performing?
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Being able to outplay survivors and make them drop pallets early seems to be a pretty good part of playing Oni. This isn't overpowered because there are still some things the survivors can do to not just throw down a pallet early, there are loads of jukes you can perform against Oni with one of the best ones being to pass a corner and crouch right past it to make it impossible for him to hit you (this is when he is using demon dash). Jumping in a locker around a loop to make him miss and immediately getting out and continuing to loop back to the pallet is also very helpful. Also, I think I already said this, but if you can play it really safe and take no chance to greed against him, then you will delay him from getting his power early which can cripple an Oni. Play stealthy when he is in blood fury.
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The strength of killers are all subjective. Each killer has a specific playstyle and strategy and certain people will do well with some and not others. For example, a person that is good at strategy will do a lot better at Trapper or Hag than someone that is not. These killers can be deadly and turn the match at the drop of a hat. A person that is not good at strategy but good at aggression will do better with Hillbilly or Oni. A skilled sniper will make Deathslinger look OP although he is slow moving around the map. And a person good at multitasking will do well with the Twins managing two killers. Thinking all these killers need buffed is not what you need. Each killer has a specific playstyle and thinking they should all be able to sprint around the map and get 12 easy hooks is wrong.
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