Why the game shouldn't be balanced around deathsquads
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That's a terrible mentality to have though. Can you imagine if survivors had the mentality of it's only a win if it's a 4man out?
And no it's not a comback but considering you're loosing a game and then you end up drawing, seems like a decent result considering the match.
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I mean...yeah. I agree that both sides would need to be balanced. If things on the Killer end need to be nerfed as a result, so be it.
2k? Sure, I can agree with that. 1k? No, that's not really a decent result IMO.
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Oh yes, I've noticed those tournaments where a nurse face camped with NOED in order to get a single kill.
Price pool of 15.000€ really showed which is the power role.
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Usually when somebody says "we shouldn't balance around high level play" it's coming from a survivor main. This is statement automatically means that we should keep high level survivor overpowered without touching them because of "poor solo survivors"
But this has never happened with killer side. A lot of killer perks and killers itself have been nerfed even statistically they shouldn't have. There are still plenty of ways to weaken SWF survivors without having major if any impact on solo survivors. First perk i would completely nerf is OoO. It literally makes facing SWF survivors 10x worse just by the fun factor. But as a killer fun factor is never mentioned. If you watch any recent tournaments survivor IS the power rule, as they banned stacking several perks together, like 4x DS, (anti tunnel btw)
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Go look up samantha spirit tournament gameplay and tell me how many times she's had to camp with Noed in order to get a kill. Not even a nurse player.
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They've also banned plenty of stuff on killer side in tournamnets as well you know, they do it for balance reasons and to make games funner not because survivor "OP".
I never said we shouldn't balance around high level of play, I said we shouldn't balance for deathsquads, big difference. You can go ahead and tell me that it's not ok to have overpowered surviovr stuff and that's all I care about but how would you go if they started nerfing some of the insanely strong killer stuff?
The point is, this is not a one sided debate. Both sides have balancing issues and both sides have things which need to be sorted out. It would be far more realistic to nerf specific maps/surviovr perks than nerf deathsquads as a whole, and in fact even more better to nerf stuff on both sides at the same time, so that one side isn't able to overpower the other at the strongest level consistently. You nerf deathsquads and what's stopping infectious slugging nurses?
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They banned what from killer side? last time i remember killer could use any perks he wanted, even NOED lmao. You ask me what i would do nerfing killer side? all i say go a head! You can delete ruin, undying all i care if it means deleting DS and Deadhard as well in exchange. I played since 2016 and survivors ran same meta practically the entire time.
To your third point, how often do you actually meet slugging infectious nurses? since her rework i've seen just 10 nurses, half of them were hilariously bad. There are so many anti- slugging perks now i hardly see it as an issue. If i wanted to destroy bad solo survivors i don't need nurse to do that, i can do it just fine with other killers.
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You mean that one 10 months ago? It´s not like killers received nerfs in that time or something...
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People say that "Killer has never been easier" which is not true at all. Last 1+ year have been mostly killer nerfs. Every patch there was maybe like 3 killer nerfs in exchange of one survivor nerfs. Any major survivor nerf there was in this time was brand new part nerf, insta heal nerf, few windows nerfed and balanced landing nerf, multi repair gen repair nerf (which was only 2 second added for duo, insignificant)
Cannot even count what from killer side got nerfed because there was so many
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I couldn´t agree more.
Survivor nerfs are usually nerfbuffs. Where they take something away and then buff it from the other side to compensate.
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if it isn't at leasts omewhat balanced around 'deathsquads' then as they become more common and/or population dwindles (which naturally leads to those being more likely to have stuck around versus solo players and them being encountered more frequently) the experience worsens which can lead to imbalance in queues. I briefly tried another 'asymmetrical' game that boasted it wouldn't do this and would balance around potatoes and I incorrectly myself praised it and thought it was a stroke of wisdom from solomon himself until I watched it gradually patch after patch kill that game and run more killers off every patch until I saw the same teams often over and over and it's survivor side queues were past thirty minutes sometimes. That is the worst way to 'balance' this kind of game.
they wound up throwing in a 'mixed' queue that would throw the player to whichever side the game needed to get in a quick match and guess what, you guessed it, people told me almost every time it was the killer side they got so they went back to survivor focus on their queue until they got tired of waiting forever for games and the game went down to almost no players left a couple months or so down the road.
It doesn't matter how many players this game has, the same can happen to it too. That other game was way more fun when it was less imba than this game and I watched it die. I'm sure a much less fun game with much less creative and gameplay potential can die for the same reasons. People get tired of the swats. they're not being paid to entertain them and be sh*t on over and over. Watchin them continue to be given more of an advantage while you watch yourself constantly get nerfed and have to sweat harder and harder you decide the game is ######### and move on to another one sooner or later.
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I don't think they shoudl balance for potatoes, rather decent level players not deathsquads because killers have more than enough ways to deal with deathsquads as of currently. Other than that though some decent points.
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She still plays just as much these days. Spirit nerfs did nothing to good spirits.
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Wow so you would rather play killer a year ago than now? When infinites were on majority of maps, maps were far larger, badham was even stronger than it is today, when haddonfield infinite windows existed, before ruin rework, before ruin undying, before blight, pyramid head, deathslinger, freddy rework, bubba buff, doctor buff, small clown and plague buffs, insta heal nerfs, medkit nerfs, toolbox nerfs, flashlight animation change/shadow nerf, multi gen repair nerfs, great skillchecks on gen nerfs, balanced nerf.
Now let's list things that have improved for survivor. Less bs hits through vaults. Mori nerf. Deception being only decent perk released in a while. Billy nerf. Tonedown of nurse. Slight pop nerf.
And you're trying to tell me that more nerfs have been made to killer?
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Yes.
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😂 come on, this is bhvr.
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The issue as killer is not being significantly better than the survivor team. It doesn’t take much of any skill vs. your average survivor team. Even better than average teams. Because cheap tactics work (slugging, camping, hook standoffs, etc) as solo teams don’t have awareness that (a) comms provide (b) what their team is running perk wise (c) team tendencies, even off comms.
The difference is, a lot of killers think they are better than they are, because very good teams are rare.
Nerfing loops further than they already have been is not a good idea. Especially with all these massive dead zones that exist in new maps.
Killers have this entitlement idea that EVERY killer in the game should be able to take out EVERY survivor/team just as well. I mean, if I want to race a Lamborghini, I’m not gonna show up in a Focus.
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If ur not trolling at this point then i'm genuinely worried for u.
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Simple, if the game wasn't balanced around optimal play, playing against it might be so difficult and soul crushing that many killers would probably stop playing killer, a 4 man swf is the strongest thing in the game right now with all the free things that come with communication, knowing you have good teammates, and knowing your entire team has good perks, when to save, when to be on gens, where to go to split in gens perfectly so the killer can't chase more than one survivor off gens at a time, running far in advance even against stealth killers if any other teammate has aura or line of sight
there is currently a lot you can already do to bully killers as swf saying we should balance the game below that so they get even stronger isn't how trickle down game balancing works (balance for the best players and it will balance decently for all players below that) the only problem is a lot of players are just bad, maybe just swf instead of complaining that solo queue is weak and they don't directly balance for it
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Be worried then.
But fact is, this has been a horrible year for killers. Even when you put things like the Ruin nerf under "good for killers things".
Smaller maps aren't noticeable at all. At least I haven't noticed any differences.
I could go on, but since you already think that I'm trolling, I gonna pass.
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The game should be balanced around the top end/deathsquads players as they can showcase any balance issues that the game has and all competitve pvp games do balance around the top end not mid level play
Take overwatch for example ( my most popular example lol) and the introduction to Brigg she literially changed the meta in the overwatch league to the the infamous GOAT meta ( 3 tanks and 3 support) before they had to nerf her and introduced the 222 system to try and balance the game so DPS can be used. Also at the current moment they are in the process of balancing Moria as she is heading to the same way as brig was. If it wasnt for the top players players who know how to fully utlise their powers we would never see any balance changes as mid or lower level players wouldnt showcase the balancing issue that those characters cause. Also i have seen posts of people who are lower level in OW saying brigg didnt need nerfs, shes weak, she needs buffs etc but its a matter of fact that the top end/deathsquads of OW showcased how powerful brigg was in the right hands and the devs at blizzard spent several months nerfing brigg down despite what mid lower level people said about brigg.
I do strongly believe all competitve PVP games which dbd is when it comes to balancing should be based off the top level players and cause a trickle effect to the mid and low level players.
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It should be balanced around the majority. If you balance around a deathsquad, then you are ignoring majority of the playerbase. They stand no chance to ever open the gates. It's almost there now. There are killer streams where they achieve 100+ win streaks. That shouldn't be possible!
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Before we continue have you played killer much? i'm seriously wondering if you even played killer 1+ year ago. Because let me tell you, killer is A LOT harder right now. Ruin nerf was overall was big punch to killers gut, because it was literally only thing that could really slowdown survivors early from getting 2-3 gens popping early as normal m1 killers cannot pressure 4 survivors simultaneously. All meta killers have been nerfed, some less than others. You saying that 3 "reworked" maps is the reason killer is easier now? i mean how many "infinites" did they really fix? I can only remember groaning store house, iron works.. what else? swamp was made slightly smaller
Survivors have been getting a lot of tiny buffs since then, i cannot even remember all of them. Some of them have been good buffs, but if you give 10 small buffs they become significant buff. I remember first buff was adding feature that you cannot hit unhooked survivor unless until they actually can start running, BT didn't run out as long as you were in killer's terror radius, slugging was made harder as you now need milli second to get fully recovered survivor up, new anti slugging perks added. There are plenty of them. Lastly haddonfield infinites haven't been touched, windows are exactly the same. Only thing that this map got was nerf of balanced landing.
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When you have for example a perk which the majority of the player use normally, but only really good players can unlock its full potential and make it broken, then what do you do?
Obvoiusly you nerf the potential. Sure there are some simpleminded people who just say make gens longer.
But when you really balance a game you look what causes the problem and fix it and you dont counter it with something different.
So you need to identify what makes deathsquads strong and balance exactly this. So technically you should balance around deathsquads. I dont say make all players equal, just dont enable broken potential.
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I think the issue often gets framed incorrectly. It's not that a killer should be able to take an average build and beat a deathsquad, or vice versa. The issue is that you are given absolutely no indication as to what you're about to face in a lobby.
Not all perks are created equal. That's fine. But I should be able to make an informed decision about what I'm going to run. My Corrupt only build is fine 99% of the time. That doesn't mean I should have to lose the one time it isn't. It's really silly to lose because I got out-perked when I have no way of knowing it's about to happen. I go weeks without having the gens done with Corrupt as my only slowdown. Should I just being Corrupt/Ruin/Undying every game on the off-chance I run into a full meta 4 stack who is actually good? There won't be any indication beforehand so I'd better prepare just in case. That'll be fun for everyone.
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IMO making a comparison based on perceived queue times is a bad idea.
it will match you when it identifies another 3 survivors and a killer also queueing up around the same rank as you connected to the same matchmaking region assuming they use aws. This means matchmaking can vary based on the number of players queueing and the rank they are at.
In the mornings I get matched immediately as a survivor but killer takes longer, at night I get matched immediately as killer but survivor takes a while.
Basically what I’m trying to say is I don’t think that’s the case since it is affected by so many different things. But mainly the number of people queued at the time you are also queued that affects wait times
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Wow you tell me off for supposedly not playing killer yet you have no idea about pretty much any of the map the map changes?
Here's the infinittes that were removed:
Coal tower, groaning storehouse, iron works, wretched shop, suffo pit, abetour, cowshed, torment creek, pantry and badham. Haddonfield fence infinittes were also removed fyi. This sound like three windows to you?
So many maps were also shrunk and the number of times was significantly decreased on MANY maps, go look through patch notes if you don't believe me.
Half of your other survivor buffs didn't even happen, so please get ur facts right. For every survivor buff you could mention the last year I could list you at least three.
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That's a interesting discussion. I do think it would be nice for both sides to see what they are up against but there would be many other side effects and problems which come with that, as to why good matchmaking would do a better job.
Although it's not like survivors have any information about what the killer is at all. At least as killer you can see profiles and recognise people and see if they all have items or same cosmetics etc, survivor gets nothing. I'd imagine plenty of survivors would doge if they could see their killer, no-one would play against ruin undying or spirit or Freddy or a slugging infectious nurse etc.
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Average killers should never be able to beat a good swf though, that makes no sense. You can already beat sweaty deathsquads by running the killer equivalent sweat builds/killers. You nerf deathsquads and what's stopping the killer counterparts at that level? I'd be fine if they made small changes to broken things on both sides but drastically nerfing swf is not the way to go, especially when these days it's more than feasable to beat swfs
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You specifically said "when haddonfield infinite windows existed" so i'm asking you, what windows got nerfed? Also what of the survivor buffs i mentioned didn't happen? because all of them did. Sure list every killer buff. We will see who will have more buffs and nerfs. If you start naming every addon nerf i will mentioned every single addon nerf killers got as well
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Haddonfield infinite windows on the fences were removed. Theres only those small window loops on the fecnes now.
BT still goes down if ur in the terror radius, it only doenst go down if you're running, it's been like that for ages. What are you talking about with 99ing your recover bar? That's what it's always been like, never changed. Only one anti-slugging perk was added and that's soulguard, a perk which is no where near overpowered. If you're having a problem with slugging perks, don't slug.
When infinites were on majority of maps, maps were far larger, badham was even stronger than it is today, when haddonfield infinite windows existed, before ruin rework, before ruin undying, before blight, pyramid head, deathslinger, freddy rework, bubba buff, doctor buff, small clown and plague buffs, insta heal nerfs, medkit nerfs, toolbox nerfs, flashlight animation change/shadow nerf, multi gen repair nerfs, great skillchecks on gen nerfs, balanced nerf - This was the list I gave you before and I'm waiting for you to beat it for survivor buffs.
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You are wrong. BT was only "recently" changed that you don't have to mend, but previously they buffed it so you don't need to if you stay in killers T radius. And secondly, they did indeed buff survivors that you can pick them up quicker from dying state. You saying recovery bar "never changed" is false. It has been changed 2 times. First time like around 2016 and second time in roughly 2019 both were buffs.
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When and how was the recovery bar buffed in 2019?
And no men's timer still goes down even if you are in a chase, it's whether you are running or not. Dont believe me? Go test in a kyf urself
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I feel like i'm repeating myself. I never said that it didn't NOW, now that you need to run you could con cinder it a slight nerf.
All i said that they buffed BT in the past like 1,5 years ago or so you never needed to mend if you were inside killer's terror radius. And yes dying state has been buffed 2 or 3 times. Most recent one was that you can pick up downed survivors extremely quickly /assuming they were fully recovered. This was slight nerf to counter slugging. So before it took you like slightly over a second to pick up downed survivor, now it's less than a second.
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I just can't find the stupid patch notes but i know that they changed survivors being able to recover in the dying state up from 85% to 95%
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Could you maybe explain to me why you think playing killer was better a year ago?
Because i think it's waaaay better now than before.Just the map reworks did a LOT for killers
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Did we really get that many killer nerfs this year?
The only significant i could think of is the billy rework but other than that i would say the year was great for killers
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Maybe it's just me, but gens never went as fast as now.
Ruin actually slowed gens down (unlike now).
Billy was the gold standard for how a balanced killer looks like. He and nurse were strong back then.
Moris were a effective way to counter SWF teams.
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yea but you aren't seeing the bigger picture of maginification from balancing solo queue
here's an example, balance solo queue to an average killer level
4 man even non sweat squad will be on par with top killers due to magnification
and 4 man sweat squad will be even father from unbeatable even when facing the best killer players in the game
and that's why its not a "simple fix" and why its not balanced from the bottom up
because it shouldn't be
sure an average killer shouldn't be able to beat a good swf
but a above average killer should be able to
proposing for them to balance bottom up won't meet this goal, ever
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Killers got some buffs, but the nerfs definitely outweight them. If you go ask popular killer streamers like Otz, Scottjund or tru3 they will say killer is harder than year ago.
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Ideally, a more skilled killer should be able to take out lesser skilled survivors. When you play the game a lot, especially as killer, you can tell when a survivor is good or bad. More often than not, bad survivors get carried by the 1 or 2 other good survivors on their team.
It's not even about nerfing all loops, just the ones that are broken, which there are many. It's fun playing an unsafe loop, because the safety of that particular loop is primarily decided by the skill level of the two players playing it, the killer or the survivor. The safe loops are just unfun boring gameplay where you are forced to go through the motions until the loop is completed by the survivor. There's an optimal path for the survivor to take and an optimal path for the killer to take, after that the loop is successfully negotiated for both parties. There's no play it in it, there's no risk and reward, there's no variability.
Slugging and camping are against the survivor rulebook and are thus frowned upon. I don't know why you are arguing that all killers should be balanced around slugging and camping, when that is very unfun gameplay from both sides.
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But what nerfs are you thinking of?
I would say the toolbox + insta heal nerf,map reworks,addition of strong perks (e.g corrupt intervention,infectious fright,hex undying),addition of strong killers (e.g oni,deathslinger,pyramid head,blight) made it much better to play as killer right now.
I can't think of anything that could outweigh these changes
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-About gens,i didn't notice a significant change towards gen speeds in my games
-I happily traded old ruin for the map reworks,honestly.It was super inconsistent as hell with these garbage totem spawns anyways.But it's definetely not bad now imo,there's just more strategy and effort involved to get maximum effort out of it (and RNG,obviously)
-I'm gonna agree that the billy rework was really disappointing (only his addons needed a rework,not his basekit).
The nurse change was also pretty useless because it only hinders bad and average nurse players (even though the devs tried to make the good nurse players less oppressive). Good nurse players will still murder survivors in seconds.
But both of them are still strong killers though.Just less fun because of the overheat/blink recharge mechanic
-The problem with your last point is that you normally won't recognize whether the survivors in your lobby are a SWF or not (only if they are very obvious about it.Also,there aren't many SWFs that would "require" the use of the old mori.Most of them are manageable to play against and have some weaknesses you can exploit as a killer.
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I don't think the game should be exclusively balanced around deathsquads because to my knowledge a deathsquad implies a team of extremely high level players on mics. This is an advantage most players of this game don't have. In my opinion this would be tantamount to balancing the game around amazing Spirit players. Imagine if BHVR started nerfing sounds and throwing way more pallets on maps in order to balance around these specific spirit players, this would have a detrimental affect on the rest of the killer player base. I think we also have to remember that a death squad probably represents the top 1% of the player base and therefore the vast majority of killers should be losing to these teams.
Having said that I think you should make balance changes to high level players and I do believe BHVR does this... just maybe not enough. The way they changed overly strong loops in main buildings was a good "higher level" player nerf because let's be honest newer players were not the ones exploiting these tiles so it had no balancing affect on them.
I think we also have to remember that this is a asymmetrical game and any 1:1 balancing will always be somewhat illusory and why this game will never be truly "competitive". Balancing is important but I think an equal emphasis should be towards keeping both sides "fun" and improving quality of life. For some, competition and balance is the only way they can have fun, to which I would say "maybe this game isn't for you".
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Im just wondering how that is possible. Either you are the best killer in the game or just lying dude. It doesn't matter how skilled killer you are, you have limitations how fast you can travel in the map. The first generators WILL pop with the new ruin.
Normal m1 killer can move from one side of the map to another in roughly 22, 25 seconds, add chases, downing survivor, transportin to the hook. If survivors spread out to repair 4 different generators, how will you stop all of them? old ruin was great, because if you had good start at the beginning it slowed down survivors enough that you could stop survivors from popping the first gens instantly. Now it's impossible to do that as you have that timeline of roughly 90-100 seconds and with new ruin you cannot simultaneously put pressure on all 4 survivors if they are spread out.
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- my survivor matches have been significantly faster. At least when the other survivors don't play hide and seek. RNG
- new ruin is trash. I just ignore it, because it only has a effect when the killer chases the survivor that was working on a gen. Killer breaks the chase? Back to the gen. Killer sticks to the chase? Means the others will hold m1.
- I haven't seen a good Billy or nurse on months. But that's totally subjective.
- moris were a necessary evil. They helped rooting out toxic SWF teams. I wouldn't use them often, but when I suspected a toxic group I'd equip it and played normally. Then IF they started with flashlight saves, hook sabotages or body blocking. I'd just drop the survivor and use the mori.
Now they are purely decorative.
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A game should ALWAYS be balanced around the highest level of play. Think of every major successful game out there.
DotA 2
LoL
CS:GO
Rainbow 6
TF2
CoD
Fortnite
Every single one of them is balance at high levels of play. Because if the game is not balanced at high level play, then what is the point of ever playing the game, and getting better. Why would i waste my time on a game trying to improve, when everyone knows the game is unbalanced at the highest level play. There isn't a point anymore and it would kill them game:
- People wouldn't want to play it as much to improve, so they'd seek out streams less
- Streams would be more boring to watch, because high level play is inherently unbalanced
- Streamers would move on to other games and the game would be made fun of in twitch chats everywhere for being unbalanced.
- The game would get bad press from people because they know it is unbalanced
- People would see that nobody streams the game, so new players wouldn't play it.
- The game would slowly bleed off old time players
- Eventually numbers dwindle and devs stop supporting the game as much because they can't afford to.
- Eventually the game dies.
Would this happen quickly? No probably not, but it means that game wouldn't last.
On top of all of that, there are plenty of ways that you can balance a game around the highest level of play, while not affecting low level play, or even better, by improving it. I bring you, Trickle down balance:
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Why you bringing average/good players into this debate we are talking about the high end of the game and how they are showcasing the balancing issues. I wasnt arguing that swf needs to be nerfed i was saying you balance the game around the swf/deathsquad as they showcase the balancing issues of perks, maps, items etc of course it will be the same thing with high skill "deathsquad" killers that they showcase balancing issues of killers which is a different topic as this topic is focusing on survivors and not killers.
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That's like, the fifth time you've linked that video.
You know what all those games are that DbD isn't?
Symmetrical.
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the decent or rather 'average' player is reasonable enough. it's just in the other game they honestly seemed to cater it toward people with developmental deficits to put it in akinder way. I heard some players of the other game I mentioned met one of the main balance guys in a match playing it's killer side himself shortly after one of the worse patches and they really laid it into him together, as randoms themselves in the match, because the patches were so bad and they wanted him to feel just how bad they were. Man I lol'd so hard at the reddit post about it. It felt like justice had been served, the poster claimed they used the most chessiest stuff they could to try and make a point to him. Naturally though it never phases devs of these kind of gamesit seems and they always think they know best as they continue making bad patches lmao. But it's always good to hear about them getting a dose of their own medicine since they know if they rage quit the whole community will hear about it when their game identity or network tags are known by it so they have to soak it up and put up with it like they expect everybody else to.
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