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The Devs when it comes to data
The devs - " you can't draw too many conclusions from this data because there are many factors not accounted for"
Also the devs - *use the data they told us not to draw conclusions from to justify nerfs, or to justify not changing anything*
Comments
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It's wierd, considering even McCote had to remind him that stats aren't everything.
16 -
Isn't Nurse at like the lowest pick rate? So by their logic does that mean the strongest killer needs to be buffed?
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Yep, she is, but apparently they know enough from the community not to buff her.
Just wish they would consider other aspects beyond what "the stats" tell them.
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Agreed. Their statement about OoO is just garbage. "Statistics show not many people use it" Well yeah, that's because only 1 person in a swf needs to equip it.
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So, I want to bring something up.
Let's see the chart:
So, there is chart where they said Legion is a solid mid-tier. But they also said that Nurse and Blight were misleading due to their required skill, which is totally fine. However, that means that for the sake of this chart, you remove those two Killers. Now, Legion is technically lower on the chart. This idea that he is mid tier is being masked by the fact that they have two killers on that chart that push some of the other low tier Killers up. The same thing could be said about Pyramid Head, as he was still fairly new at the time. My point being, even using their own chart, Legion is NOT the middle of the road Killer they claim if they go by their own sentiments concerning the lowest two and newer Killers.
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Gotta love skewed stats
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Stats have their place, but not when the stats are so heavily skewed it can barely even be called stats.
7 -
It's sad to because they say they don't look at stats but people think Deathslinger needs a nerf and the devs are like "Deathslinger is actually weak, look at our stats."
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Some stats are fine - pickrate stats show which killers aren't very fun to play or might be a bit too weak. Plague - a mid tier killer - has the lowest pickrate because her power is almost entirely in the survivors control and feels very janky to use. That's simple and not many factors effect it.
Other stats however like killrate, are not fine due to how many factors effect it. Freddy is a great example, he isn't the strongest killer, he's just super easy to play.
Why the devs look at killrate like its a good representation of how strong a killer is (when its not) is beyond me.
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Position on the chart is irrelevant lol, if every killer was somewhere in the 75% range, someone would still be at the bottom and someone still at the top. 67% is a solid kill rate
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And yet that position on the chart is what the devs literally cited.
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Doesn't the first line of your comment literally prove that they do take factors other than stats into account?
4 -
Saying someone is a "mid range killer" does not mean "hes in the middle of our graphs" lmao.
Removing two killer from the graph doesn't make his kill rate suddenly go down, it's still mid range.
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I'm most concerned about Plague having an abysmal pick rate. Riddled with bugs, blood point system issues, being screwed over BAD by dedicated servers what with vile and corrupt purge not registering hits etc. and they've said NOTHING about addressing her issues or helping her at all.
Nevermind her questionable power design. I just stopped playing her altogether because it's beyond painful having to walk to a corner of the map a mile away from survivors to get Corrupt Purge. Gens genuinely fly by and she can't actually pressure anything she's imo the most unfun killer to play right now but yeah it's fine. Clown and Demo getting reworks, Freddy getting changed and everyone wants Legion + Nurse changes asap but I have to bring up Plague because I feel like she's falling more and more and the only reason she maintains any semblance of positive stats is from the hardcore Plague mains who are just really good killer players and can get a snowball rolling with her (She is a snowball killer after all but that probably messes with consistency of stats).
I just wish behavior would acknowledge her but they seem radio silent about Plague it's like they don't even care.
2 -
How come the killer icon has a 68.19% pick rate?
I want to play as a killer icon. Just fly around the map as a 2D graphic and bap people.
6 -
Kill rate is at the top, so that number is the average kill rate across all killers.
1 -
Ah, thank you.
*Urge to play 2D killer icon graphic intensifies anyways*
7 -
I feel the same about Nurse. She's been buggy since her rework a year ago and now she's too frustrating to play. Not a word about fixing her bugs. Plague must have it worse.
2 -
That's true, but the problem is other than Nurse, they basically stick to their stats. OoO is a great example. Everyone knows they should change OoO, but they're using their stats to prove why they have no need to. Also, they purposely gave Nurse a high skill cap.
3 -
I see lots of speculation in this thread.
1-Nurse is a demanding killer, it takes lots of hours and dedication being crushed before you can 4k. She has the most peculiar of all killer skillsets and not everyone is willing to put the time required to become master her. Her skill ceiling is up high in the sky and just straight buffing her might result in an oppressive experience to the other side.
2- "Now, Legion is technically lower on the chart" Where did you pull that from? Pick rate? No, comfortably sitting aroung the average of 1/21= 4.76 and both Nurse and Blight have above average pick rates. Kill Rate? After the said removal of Blight and Nurse, the average Kill rate between all killers goes to 69.03%, while Legion sits at 67.98%. 1.05% bellow average AFTER the 2 worst were removed!!!!! Even then compare that to Plague 62.55% kill rate and abysmal pick rate. Stop with that nonsense already.
4 -
When I said 'they', I should have said 'he'. Considering the comment is aimed at Ethan and his questionable quotes concerning stats.
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Yeah, it's crazy dude. It blows my mind because they had a better design philosophy in the past. Legion got a rework in the past because he was oppressive, not because he was top tier. That was a good call back then. Nowadays though, it's all about data. OoO is just as oppressive against killers as old Legion was to survivors or old Ruin was to new players, but nah it's fine cause data. The dev even made a comment the other day about how we don't understand statistics or how they're using it. But that's the same person who cited pick and death rates for OoO to defend not changing it and it's just like WOOSH.
I do think that they make some good decisions sometimes but it's hard to get over that one.
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The problem with the kill rate stats is, that it considers how rank 1 killers perform, but doesn't filter facing rainbow survivors, moris or suicides.
Killer xxx having a high kill rate while survivors constantly run towards him to get downed and then suicide. Just because they don't feel like playing against that killer and don't want to have the dc penalty.
Survivors sabotage their own match, then the stats show that a killer is over performing.
9 -
One, Nurse's pick rates are not low. This tells me that you haven't actually looked at the stats. Two, if you organize players by the mains that they play, and then you look at the best 1 percent of those players, those Nurse players outperform 75 percent of all other killers that are judged the same way. That has been confirmed by the Devs. When they said that you can't take the stats at face value that's what they mean. However, you can dig into the stats more if you're a Dev to get a better overall picture.
Nurse is at a good place, really strong for the few who figure her out.
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I always think of Otzs comparison to Dying Light.
It wasn't a perk that was super strong but got changed anyway due how unfun the gameplay was that it promoted (hard tunneling you obsession).
Genuinely disappointed that someone from the balance team fails to see that
5 -
Those top 5 killers: Freddie, Doc, Pig, Bubba, Spirit... are the killers that people DC against the most
They only shared pick rate and kill rate
They need to share:
DC rates (and adjust the kill rates)
Perk usage... just like the top 10-20 (not all of them cause that would be insane)
I would like more but that's just me wanting all of the information (selfish I am)
3 -
You have a point and also, do the kill rates also include the dc's. The people who disconnected technically did not live, which means they died in a sense in the match.
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Yes... they're included... Honestly they should be separate for context
Take Freddie for example... has %75.69 kill rate but what % are DC's and not kills that Freddie got himself?
That's what I want to know more of (cause again... I'm being selfish)
2 -
If you make everything "fun" for survivors then we will all be playing base wraith.
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Most of them will be survivors killing themselves on the hook and standing still so they move onto the next game quicker.
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Dying light was unfun for survivors.
OoO isn't.
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While others happen when the survivor finds out who the killer is... and just DC's
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You are aware that the devs can use those stats because they are able to filter and corrolate them to other data they might not want to give you, right?
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A lot of things in the game could be fixed in an instant; but I mean it took years to get trapper to be able to just reset traps.
The most basic quality of life changes require years of constant nagging from the community to get done; so I just gave up and take it all as it is. I don't think much about what is going to be done or if ____ character or perk will be buffed or nerfed because by the time it happens I will probably be on hiatus from the game again.
3 -
based on what? Like when they released “data” to show Trapper was the most commonly picked killer....right after the rift was released with trapper challenges?
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This game is almost 5 years old and their most iconic killer, the trapper,is still not able to carry 2 traps without addons.
Amazing
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Yeah i don't see why they cannot give trapper some love. Can you imagine how much buffs trapper should get to be considered OP? I think least they should do is give him ability to to carry 2 traps, traps should somehow hinder survivors if they step on them so it would be more rewarding.
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I was just going to bring that up
You beat me to it... go you
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Survivor good killer bad
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Good point. I think there´smore to it, though.
Ethan got such overwhelming amounts of negative feedback for his stance on Object. There are so many good reasons to fix the perk. No reason to leave it as it is when everyone except a handful of people know how broken it is.
At this point, I think they are leaving Object in its current, horrible form just to spite the community. We need to be taught what we want and what is good for us, after all.
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Just imagine that the killer could equip OoO. He could see the obsession wherever he is.
The survivor outcry would be so hard, devs would instantly rework it.
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And it would still be leagues weaker than the Survivors object lol
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Dont they regularily mistake "top player" with "Top killers" in their stats?
Like they track the rank of killers and their performance, but disregard the rank of their opponents?
You cant balance for the top-% when your data includes mostly pro-vs-noob matches...
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Any kills in a match with an early leavers should be exempt and/or separated into a different stat block. If 1 teammate DC's/suicides early and the 3 others stay, even if the Killer (Freddy in this example) got the other 3 on his own, they were overwhelmingly likely to die now anyway since 1 of their teammates left early.
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I was thinking something like that...
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Yeah I was agreeing with your direction of what they should be doing, I just wanted to add some details and see if you'd agree. I know a lot of people would like to see more in depth stats, if even just for the sake of hoping the devs take more factors into account because it really doesn't seem/feel that way.
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@MrPenguin , I don't know if could track Hook Suicides... but if they can then hell yea I want to know
Then the other stats they haven't shown are also what I want to know
I could list them all but that might take awhile... if you know what I mean
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They once said, that according to their data, hook suicides didn´t increas a lot.
So i think its save to assume that they can see who suicided on the hook and who didn´t.
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And what makes this chart completely useless: There are so many Survivors in Red Ranks who actually play like Green Ranks. No wonder why some weaker Killers like Pig have a high kill ratio. It also explains why Freddy os so "overwhelming", because it is a high-mobility multy purpose killer who can easily destroy mediocre teams. As Freddy Main I know instantly if I face true Red Ranks or wannabe Red Ranks. The true Red Ranks are actually a challenge.
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Or you know look at some stats ask some mods of community managers about that specific topic then make a post about that topic gather the communities thoughts about that topic get some ideas about how to change said topic then test it on the ptb if it dosent work or the community hates it revert the change
(almost like that's what the community thought that's what the ptb would do)
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