No joke can we add counter-play to the spirit please
I'm tired of having to suicide on hooks because there's no counterplay to a spirit running stridor, because ironwill no longer works then, walking doesn't work either. I've tried the scratch mark tricks and everything, man this is getting to the point I'm gonna quit this game if she doesn't get SOME kind of counter-play.
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I don't seem to have these same issues with Spirit at all. She's quite out playable.
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She’s outplayable. Get gud.
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She'll be nerfed some day I imagine.
However stop screwing your entire teams over please; for such a ridiculous reason. Thanks.
If you're going to quit, then quit- but stop dragging everyone else down with you please. That's not fair to everyone else.
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Honestly, depends on rank in this matter and whether or not the killer wants to bring specific add-ons that make going against her insanely unfun. Sure, everything is outplayable at anytime... but then you have consistent problems. Now, if you try to tell me you are Rank 1 and outplay Rank 1-2 spirits easily, then I would have to call your bluff.
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There's a lot of spirit enthusiasts here so don't expect much sympathy. I don't actually mind playing against her as much as others but she's still ridiculous and her previous nerf addressed almost nothing about what's wrong with her except for prayer beads.
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I've got literally thousands of hours at rank 1 on both sides. She's quite out playable.
I never said it was easy. If it was easy she wouldn't be one of the top tier killers. The counter play is there though.
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You have a point. When they suck. I barely go against spirits anymore and when I do they suck. When I went against good spirit they always knew what I was gonna do at shack. They always catch you. I agree there is ways to outplay her but its not really a counter because it is hit or miss. Crouching behind obstacles always works on Huntress unless you time it wrong thats a counter. at least imo. Also you can hear if a survivor vaults a pallet slowly. I had phased and heard the breathing get closer so I downed them. Idk playing her is brain dead easy.
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The amount of Spirits at the level where there is very little counter play is extremely rare. Similar to a god tier Nurse.
The vast majority of Spirits and Nurses you face have a good amount of counter play, even at rank 1.
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They are way different ball games dude. Also it comes to the skill of discerning sound. Also knowing survivor loops. If you know that and are good with her you can be unstoppable without enough gen pressure. The spirit at red rank right now suck they used to be better. And I definitely dont think I got better because I do the same ######### I always tried. Plus I 3k with spirit rarely, 2k more rarely and 1k VERY RARELY. I have 1k one time or even never and 2k maybe 3 times and 3k a couple on that
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Care to share how you counter-play these god tier nurse and spirit mains?
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Survivors dying very often to Spirit =/= Spirit is too strong or has no counter play.
The average survivor is just bad.
Amazing survivors vs an amazing Spirit, the Spirit will lose almost every time. I also don't mean just swf, even a full good set of solo's.
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Thats very questionable. You make spirit sound weak.
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You misunderstood what I typed. I didn't say that god tier Nurses and Spirits have lots of counter play.
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Not at all. She's one of the top tier killers for a reason.
I just think people exaggerate when talking about how little counter play she has. The counter play is difficult, it's why she's strong, but it is there. Her counter play is completely the opposite of most killers and I can go into it in detail if you'd like.
I think too many people think of this game as a 1v1 instead of a 4v1, which is where the confusion comes from. With how fast gens go in this game the killer needs to get a hit or a pallet in 15-20 seconds, at most. How many killers can realistically do that against equally good survivors? Very few. Even 15 seconds for that one hit cost the killer more than half an entire gen. 15x3=45 seconds of a gen.
What's my point?
My point is that the length of time that most survivors want chases to last is quite simply put unviable for the killer to still win. So the chases have to be so super short for the killer to have a chance at pressuring which is why a good Nurse or Spirit is viable. They can reasonably make this time.
How do we fix this?
Slow down the gens so that killers are able to have long chases without it costing them the entire match. This way survivors get their long/fun chases and we don't have to make killers that can down so quickly.
Most survivors just think about how fast their chase was without realizing how much that cost the killer. Every 1 second of the killers time you waste is 3 seconds your team gained on a gen.
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Spirit’s are outplayable if they’re not wearing headphones or don’t have a decent pair of headphones.
The only change for Spirit that might be okay (would need to see in ptb) would be to remove Stridor’s effect when phasing. In terms of hearing someone with IW otherwise, fair game. But maybe nerfing being able to hear someone with IW while moving at minimum 176% could be tweaked
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Spirit would be trash then.
If you took away Stridor during phasing you are forcing her to completely guess the survivors location. Like literally...guessing...I don't mean figuratively. Good survivors aren't dumb running in a nice little scratch mark line for you to follow. 90% of her reads are by sound and you're saying to remove that. She would then have zero information to use in locating the survivor in a chase other than guessing.
Spirit is currently outplayable even with good headphones. The problem is you're trying to outplay her wrong. Yeah, she can hear you, that's why you take advantage of that and manipulate what she's hearing to give her the wrong read.
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Suiciding on hook isn’t doing you, the other survivors, or the spirit player any good. You’re not improving your game by doing that, and you’re taking the fun away from the other players. Just make the best of it, because there are a few ways you can play around her. I agree she does need a rework coming from a spirit main, but you need to at least try and to not ruin the experience for the players around you.
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Depends if they are on gens, but this game isn't a 4v1 in the bones thats the flesh. Its a 1v1v1v1v1 in the bones of it all. But her counters are drop a pallet early so she thinks you went through the other side, or they call it or even more hear your breathing or yet again they end the phase and see you. I don't think counters should rely on chance and gens aren't counterplay they are objective. Thats like saying a counterplay to survivors is killing them
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Just look at the shards, bro 4Head
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She has counter play. You can loop her and mind game her, granted, it's not easy, I can't since I am bad, but I have seen some good survivors waste plenty of her time.
Your other option is to stealth against her. If you see her often enough, you should just run Spine Chill, and when it lights up, stealth towards the direction she is coming from while using the environment as cover. You can wasted plenty of time doing this since many of them start to look behind every nook and cranny trying to find you. I always have a little giggle watching them look for me.
I'd rather face a Spirit over a Freddy any day.
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Please don't suicide on hook.
I would love to listen what this so-called Spirit counterplay is, though. Because as long as she's running Stridor, there's little to nothing you can do against her when she's using her power, except for gambling. Playing against Spirit is constantly flipping a coin and praying for the best. Against other killers, there's usually stuff you can do: juke, fake vaults, some specific things like doubling back against the Nurse when she's mid-blink, or idk crouching against the Huntress to avoid her hatchets to give a few examples.
Against Spirit's power? Please DO tell me, I'd love to learn!
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Outplayable my ass, its a guessing game at pallets, its a guessing game during chase, its bs
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It's not a 1v1v1v1v1 because you aren't against your teammates as survivors. If you look at it like this for balance the game will never be balanced that way.
We are also assuming they are all on gens if they aren't in chase because we are assuming "good" survivors vs a "good" Spirit. We'd never have a balanced game if we're gonna balance around bad players. Good survivors aren't wasting time.
The Spirit is chasing you across the field towards a jungle gym. We're going to assume phasing after you because if she's really 110% coming at you across the field then you literally just gave your team near 30 seconds of a gen before the loop standoff has even started. That's a win for you if she does that.
As she phases after you, you fast vault the window and then slow vault back over. Now all she has is tracks to the window and a loud noise notification at the window to go by. She is now completely guessing a 50/50 of whether you committed or faked it. Most Spirits will assume you committed and go straight around as most people don't know how to play against Spirit, won't fake it, and instead come to these forums complaining. Now you're on opposite sides of the wall with her power on cooldown. She should never be getting a hit on you at a loop running 110% with her power on cooldown. Even if we assume her power comes back up and she gets her hit on the next phase that entire fiasco has cost her almost an entire gen for one hit. I'd even argue you have a decent chance of mind gaming her for another phase until you're injured as while you're still healthy she can barely hear you and the mind games are significantly easier.
Multiply that 4 or so more times and ya'll have won the match. Time is on ya'lls side, not hers.
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School everyone else has to guess instead of her? See how that works. Its crap
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If you don't think she's having to make guesses herself even in her current form you haven't played Spirit much.
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Easy fix, take away her ability right and then give her a terror radius of 42 or 58 actually. Boom
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Spirits counterplay is having 4 survivors to spread pressure on the killer who has no easy team wide map pressure only relies on hooks and chase potential to mount pressure
very specifically lowering the amount of survivors in the match makes her much stronger so congrats you counterplayed her only counterplay and ruined the match for your teamates
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If she has duration add ons maybe. You say 4.4 meters a second without power takes 30 seconds. 4.4 x 30 at least 120 meters away. Not feasible. I want to discuss this so please give some more feasible numbers just so we can both be on one basis. I could easily just say she will either lose her ability before or after you vault meaning she would see you. And as I said these arent counters necessarily they ate prayers. I do agree that is one that will definitely work but a good spirit wouldn't fall for that of she goes against good survivors. Thatd why its an iffy subject that can be disputed on all sides. Also it relies on your personal feelings of what counterplay is too. So we can agree right here on both of what we said or we can sue actual stats to try and understand one another's side more.
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"If she has duration add ons maybe. You say 4.4 meters a second without power takes 30 seconds. 4.4 x 30 at least 120 meters away. Not feasible."
You misunderstand. 10 seconds x 3 for each survivor on a gen. IE I'm saying you wasted 10 seconds, not 30.
"but a good spirit wouldn't fall for that of she goes against good survivors."
Even if she's good, every time you make this play she is still doing a 50/50 guess. Even if she gets the guess wrong only half the time y'all have won when you look at the time for those. Keep in mind that's also for one hit, not 2 for a down.
No matter how good or bad she is those plays are forcing her to make a guess.
The reason this all works is because you beat Spirit by forcing her to react to you, not you reacting to her. This is the complete opposite of how you play against all other killers.This is what most players don't understand.
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Hmm I guess in reality though theres little counterplay to both sides when spirit is involved then. Also my bad on that misunderstanding. But if spirit has to guess like us then its not a true counter for either side. I mean I always knew she didnt have any REAL counterplay but thats because my definition is different so im not saying you're wrong. I just knew it was always a guessing game. Like tru3 video made me realize what you can do against her and Scott's video showed how those tips weren't good. At least all the time
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I actually think Tru3s video discredited Scotts. Up to interpretation I suppose though.
I see why you would call that not "counter play" per say. However, if we go that direction of interpretation we could start discrediting other "counter play" we have in the game.
For example:
You're looping a high wall pallet and the red stain turns the other way. Most people call that a mind game or counter play to the loop, but if we go by what we're saying above it's not because now you're just making a 50/50 guess as to whether he's faking it or really turning.
You loop a Huntress through a pallet. Will they throw it down and you should pull back the hatchet or will they continue running through? Once again, is that a mind game or counter play? Most would say it is, however it's really just once again a 50/50 guess.
My point is that either the Spirit strategy I provided above is indeed counter play or all this other "counter play" in the game isn't really counter play either. The only real difference is that Spirit forces the guess/counter play more often instead of just at loops like most killers.
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how dare you provide a logical response to survivor mains!
"why should we have to alter the way we play and adapt to challenges?!"
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Well if you loop something you can keep eyes on it and get to the pallet. I dont mean to sound rude but if thats. Your experience in looping as survivor you could improve unless you are generalizing. But a good survivor can just wait at certain spots and not get hit. Anyone who thinks pallets are counterplay to huntress is an idiot 😂 but I do agree on that but that goes more into looping instead of killer specific. Albeit its my fault for not realizing that I opened doors to talk about other things. Well like lets say you go against trapper one for sure counterplay anyone can do is disarming traps, walking to see traps and to avoid areas he was around of you are im chase. Legion is to split up, etc. Btw I love talking with you. You make me think and have very reasonable conversation and id love to talk about some game mechanics with you on a youtube video at some point since you are a pretty reasonable person.
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I think what they mean is they would like something that could help distinguish Spirit when she is phasing as there is no "out-playing" her it's just guessing.
Telling people to all play perfect and smart to outplay the Spirit player as a whole because of 4 v 1 advantage isn't exactly offering people advice on counterplay. Besides this can and probably will fall especially flat in solo queue where an experienced Spirit will absolutely tear apart uncoordinated Survivors.
Personally I'm torn on the matter as, it (Phasing) is the only thing Spirit has and it extremely strong in (1v1 chases).
I think if ever she gets nerfed it should be her add-ons. She's already an S tier killer without add-ons. Certain add-on combinations just make her crazy to the point that it really is broken. If BHVR ever wants to nerf her actual Phasing I'll leave that up to them but as someone who plays as her and against her it's hard to say. All I know is that she's unmatched in the 1v1 chase among the entire roster of Killers.
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Tbh I consider spirit to be too strong so I don't play her. I want to win because I outplayed survivors, and not because some poorly designed ability did all the work for me.
To each their own though.
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She would have less information. You don’t need to run stridor as spirit (it’s more an intro to spirit kinda perk). And not every survivor runs iron will. So, no, it wouldn’t be “completely nerfing her” - that’s a bit alarmist. If you listen, you can hear survivors footsteps, you see which way the grass is moving, etc. It’s not a hard nerf by any extent. It requires a little more brainpower. Not like you can’t make plays vs stridor even at 150%...
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Tired of survivors wanting 100% counters to everything.
The killer player deserves some input into whether or not they hit you. Not rely on you making a mistake or being bad.
Did you ever think that maybe you are terrible at mind games and can be read like a book?
Try running spine chill. It works wonders against her and wastes alot of the killers time just starting the chase.
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Well we're definitely making generalities here for sure. Of course there are many loops that are low wall or have holes in them like shack. I'm speaking more in regards to high wall loops without holes.
I don't think anyone with a decent amount of hours thinks pallets counter Huntress. The scenario I was providing wasn't implying pallets as a counter but simply to provide a hypothetical scenario to illustrate our "counter play"/guessing comparison.
I would agree the Trapper example is a good one to illustrate actual counter play. I'd also argue though that it's one of the reasons he's extremely weak as well aka non viable in my eyes (we probably have different definitions of viable). I suppose my general point wasn't to say that all other killers don't have counter play by our hypothetical definition from above, but simply to point out that there are a lot of killers/base game play that would be guessing and not actual "counter play" by our interpretation.
I appreciate the compliment and I'd love to do just that sometime. Some of these conversations can be a bit more lengthy and confusing to elaborate on through text. Voice is much faster and more thorough. I can talk about DBD for days.
Feel free to add me.
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That's a truism for almost every killer.
Most killers rely on survivors making mistakes or bad decisions. Better survivors make less mistakes and better decisions and so survive easier.
Spirit, like many killers, needs counterplay. They need counterplay so the can eventually get buffs that make them more proactive, instead of being pub stompers.
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That's not counterplay, that's SwF.
If SwF is the answer to something, than that something needs to be looked at.
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Completely negated by...stridor. If they have IW, they may get away with that, once. Not to mention, if they’re on a tile like shack where two different floors connect (wooden floor to grass, at the pallet/window), good luck
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If they aren't injured then no, Stridor is making very little difference in this scenario. Uninjured the sound difference is feint enough it won't inhibit your mind game enough for 99% of the Spirits out there, especially in the above scenario.
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I cant stream because Wi-Fi trash. And frankly I dont have pc so I wouldnt know how to make the video. Me and azame were supposed to do one for his channel but now that he has pc he wants to focus on gameplay. So is there a place we can talk and figure this out. And back to original convo yeah I agree some killers counterplay requires guessing and that's why its not total counterplay and is annoying a good huntress is annoying but fun. A good Slinger is worse than spirit. Spirit is ok honestly once you get better at looping she isnt too difficult but then again there arent many good spirits. Pyramid head isn't that bad because you can read which direction. Be will use it unless he is bad he might get you by surprise. And as for high walls you can always have an area to see. Short wall gym you have to shift tech to get the vault by waiting last second to vault. I still need to learn how to run that gym better and long wall you can wait at corners to see and no matter what they do its no guessing game and regular pallet gyms are the most annoying because they feel so unsafe and I wish I lnew how to loop those effectively against a mindgamer and t wall are just trash honestly
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Not the spirits fault you don't wanna learn a counter. Adapt or keep struggling.
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Saying gens is the objective its counterplay to everyone not killers specifically. Killing survivors is also counterplay but we know that and its pointless to say it. More accurate thing is like oh to counter dead hard wait it out lunge at the end of turn 180 instead of saying kill them. Thats or oh how do I loop clown? Dont die. Do gens. When you have to waste pallets maybe get ONE loop in.
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Can you use discord? I'm on the official DBD discord a decent amount. I don't typically stream much but I can probably record for it.
I could see an argument for reducing the amount of guessing in the game or adding some additional counter play to things like Spirit. However that said, as I got into a little earlier the game would need to be significantly slowed down to allow for it. Some of the things in the game that people feel aren't "fun" game play are currently a necessity because of game speed. IE camping/tunneling/slugging/"counter play". This is a generality I'm applying for a point rather than specifics so don't take me too literally here but you get my point. There are some circumstantial exceptions and nuances here.
There are a lot of different issues contributing to this problem though, it isn't just a couple singular things. Most have been around for years.
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No I 100 percent take it literally because its 100 percent true. The gameplay needs to be shaken up and gen speeds are too fast but they are also fine in normal games so I dont think they need to be slower but have more interactive gameplay. Same with the loops I think we shouldnt have to worry about randomized loops maybe add buildings or sheds and some high grass on maps make it good for hiding and then there is no guarantee what you can have. What if you have a looping build but only t walls? Or a hiding build with a regular map. And give killers powers some better effects on the gameplay. Somehow like if oni is in rage mode since he is giant you can hear him map wide and your character stumbles every now and then or screen shakes. Although i think that could be a game mode like a realism mode or something. And yes I do have discord it is Komodo16#2569
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You certainly can't learn to counter-play her when you suicide on the hook rather than trying to play better. And I don't think anyone will miss someone who screws over their team because they can't be bothered to at least try.
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Oh I could go into a lot of detail on all that haha. I gotta get off though, I got work in the morning. I sent you a friend request on discord. We'll chat it up on some of these ideas soon, it's a lot to type. I'm online quite frequently.
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