No joke can we add counter-play to the spirit please
Comments
-
You know if you lead with "im tired of having to suicide on hook because i can't beat X killer" it kind of invalidates the whole point of the post.
The first step to counterplay would be to stop sabotaging the team and actually play against the killer so you can learn....wait ######### am i talking about? Im sorry i forgot survivor was supposed to be a cake walk and all killers should be played against exactly the same. They should just take away her dumbass phasing and make her an M1 killer. She would be much more fun to play against then
0 -
Good. Have a nice sleep and good day at work. As far as I know ill be free all day therefore we can discuss as soon as possible.possible
0 -
A lot of the issues with many of the standard killers is many of them do not get enough opportunities to create 50/50's in the game. This is large part to why Spirit is strong. Her power enables more possible 50/50 to occur during a match. In fact a lot of survivor's power in the game revolves on DENYING the possibility to get 50/50'd. People may ask, what do you mean by denying 5050's.
Take long wall with single pallet with the short side. what to most survivors do when they get to this loop? The people who greed loops will attempt to loop long wall and this gives opportunity for the killer to red glow mindgame the survivor, but a large majority of survivors will not even attempt to loop this pallet. they'll just drop the pallet immediately because they know they camp the pallet using the vantage point and the pallet is practically an infinity even at blood 2-3 when dropped. When you break it, the survivor just holds shift+W which again wastes the killers time and gives zero opportunity to mind game the survivor.
Even look at other classic loops in the game. Shack window has two very common mindgames. the first one is double back for when a survivor attempts to vault the shack window and the other common mindgame is double vault into the shack and back out when a survivor is turning around the corner of a shack. Both of these are 50/50's but I would say they're slanted 50/50's. The survivor does not need greed window nor do they need to reenter the shack, they could just use outer rim of shack wall and when a killer does catch up from bloodlust, Just use shack pallet to reset it followed by more Shift+W for another 30-40 seconds. If your teammate efficient at generators, you will not really get punished for it in vast majority of cases. This stuff exists for.... cow loops in farm maps, the fun bus in azeroth maps, jungle gyms and virtually every other safe pallet in the entire game.
All that spirit really accomplishes with her power is she has potential to counter SHIFT+W(through speed) and she counters playing safe by adding elements of risk vs reward for survivor at loops(through unpredictability/stealth). Somehow, these two aspects are apparently unfair for survivor and *lack counter-play* for survivor. If anything, a lot of survivor's gameplay lacks counter-play for the killer side. not the other way around. you would think that the opportunity to get a hit on every loop would be standard gameplay, but it is simply not. when that becomes true, then apparently that becomes a problem.
1 -
I haven't played spirit in over a year because it makes me feel guilty. Shes completely ridiculous.
0 -
No mither and iron will stack. There's your counterplay, have fun!
0 -
Get good... I can loop spirit for quite a while, I always run iron will u should try it, u gotta mind game her just like any other killer, if I lose that's usually due to teamates...
But really just play 3-4 games against her properly without suiciding and thinking bad thoughts like that, just try and u will quickly learn to counter her.
Thing is spirit players are used to FPS games and can detect exactly where someone is with sound,
it's actually a skill not many people have
{My friends who all have gaming headsets for 6 years now and they still can't hear the exact direction of a person in csgo, me on the other hand will wallbang headshot as soon as they make the smallest sound(even if u don't move u make a really tiny sound like ur clothes shuffles)}
It's a competitive game and spirit is actually fun to play with and against, she isn't OP as a killer rank 1 and a really good spirit I do have people escape but usually the people that actually do gens, by 3rd hook all gens done after that it's gg can't really get all 4 at that point.
That's really the thing, before u complain about a killer, just do gens with one of your hundred meta perks and all gens done in 4min
0 -
This here, ladies and gentlemen is why kill rates are high.
Survivors don't want to learn, adapt or improve.
They just want things made easier, because they couldn't be bothered.
And after everything was nerfed, they start to complain about survivor queues.
10 -
Also don't forget that they will also complain about a stagnating killer pool they face because gee golly nerfing a specific killer into the ground means no one plays them.
6 -
There's no 'learn and adapt' aspect to this game except developing better basic mechanics and game sense. Basic mechanics doesn't stop/mitigate most killer's powers/perk and game sense won't help you when stopping/mitigating a power/perk requires a perk of your own.
'Learn and Adapt' would have legitimacy if Survivors could make accurate, educated guesses about who the killer was, instead of playing Reverse Russian Roulette with their perks.
1 -
Yes. But instead of realizing that certain killers aren't fun anymore, they come to the conclusion that the current meta killer is OP and that it's the only reason they see him so often. Which then leads to more nerf threads.
8 -
Every killer has unique characteristics. That reveal who ot is at the beginning.
- trap boxes? Pig
- traps laying around? Trapper
- guy screaming with a chainsaw? Billy
- guy laughing while chain sawing? Bubba
- high pitched scream? Nurse
- gun shot? Mendslinger
- asthmatic laughter? Clown
- humming? Huntress
Etc, etc.
5 -
Why do survivors complain so much when a killer has control of a chase or an equal say in a chase? Nurse, Spirit, Deathslinger. You know it's not fun for alot of players using m1 killers where survivors get full control of the chase but they stick with it. Survivors have had control of the chase for so long and with so many killers that something which breaks that mold seems foreign to them.
Some maps are so bad now you can just hold forward and drop the occassional pallet and waste 2+ minutes of the killers time. This isn't even touching on DS immunity. How about add some counterplay to survivors too?
1 -
It's the same for m1 killers though. As long as the survivor is on the other side of a safe loop there's nothing you can do. You're just sat hoping they make a mistake eventually and hoping that they don't have dead hard to correct that mistake. Some loops let you do mindgames but that itself is this coin toss you refer to hoping that the survivor falls for it.
There's a double standard here and massive hypocrisy. God forbid killers have some agency and equal participation in a chase.
5 -
In over a year at rank 1 I’ve maybe encountered 2 spirits that were actually god tier. It’s insanely rare
6 -
The counterplay is to play sneaky, don't get caught, and stop moving predictably.
And of course, the counterplay to every killer is to *just do gens.* I can't tell you how many times a good killer loses because one person was on a gen at all times.
3 -
How to counter Spirit like a true red rank player
- Press ESC or whatever button that brings up the menu on the console. Press leave. Congrats you just saved yourself from a miserable 10 mins game and all you lost is a pip, oh, and the 5 min penalty. Oh no :(
- Sacrifice iron will for a perk slot every match and crouch around the map 24/7.
I am a Spirit main. And I approve of this message.
0 -
None of that matters when the counters to said powers exist in perks, which are picked pre-game, which is when you actually need to know what's going on in order to "Learn and Adapt."
I see Jigsaw boxes, great, now what? Basic Mechanics and Game Sense. Oh, lucky day, I have Spine Chill too.
Look at that, a bear trap! What am I going to do? Basic Mechanics and Game Sense. Damn, really wish I had Small Game though.
So, again, 'Learn and Adapt' means almost nothing without the ability to actually adapt to your former experience. Your only options are improving Basic Mechanics and Game Sense, it's complete luck after that if you don't run the meta 'Don't touch me there, That's my Nono square' builds.
2 -
Unless the killer is Doctor, that's how you "counter" every killer.
0 -
My advice:
Keep suiciding untill BHVR do some ######### about this broken killer.
Spirit mains can claim there is counterplay but it hasn't !!!
How you counter something you can't see and hear a little and no mindgame ?
The true is that versing Spirit we can't do anything that we learned from the game and want to use to protect ourselves. ( Scott words but is the true ! )
Nurse is another broken mechanic but at least you can mindgame and see where she is gonna blink, double back, keep running and mix all up.
Spirit don't need a nerf ... is mechanic that should never exist !
3 -
not even refering to swf just refering to staying alive as 4 randoms as long as you can
0 -
If your suiciding to a killer in my survivor games stop playing we don't need you in our games. Period we dont nneed some entitled player throwing a tantrum and refuses to play because you don't like rodney the spirit.
4 -
yes but saying there's no counterplay just because a killer is strong in chase is just removing all discussion of other counterplay just because you can't run around an object 4 times
Here's some stuff to help against every killer and especially against killers who are good in chase and not much else
Split up
Use stealth when close to death to keep it a 4 man as long as possible and early on when they start patroling so they waste time if they come over to you first but don't use it when teamates are close to death so you take hook stages and chases for them
Know what the killer is capable of and play to their weaknesses clown can't do anything about pallets dropped early, and you get a free second chance against nurse, and spirit has long power cooldowns depending on how long she has been phasing to abuse the cooldown to the fullest extent, even with no addons base max cooldown is 15 seconds and everyone competent should be able to hold a chase against a 110% speed killer with no power
Don't instantly save a survivor of hook if your gen is at 50% or more unless there is more than one survivor on hook
but saying there's no counterplay in chase very specifically removes all counterplay outside of chase so 4/5 of these are no longer possible because people refuse to even fathom the idea of them
0 -
This issues could it be that maybe its a problem with the survivor role? Maybe survivor base kit is lacking in depth. A lot of base kit changes need to be introduced to adjust and make the game more exciting. Noisemakers, noise manipulation and some form of teleport points would add a lot of nuances to roles that need it. Modern killers continue to evolve in design but survivor is the same stale crap. Tearing nuanced killer down for the sake of balancing around a basic survivor kit with limited nuances is foolish. Lets look at whats meta for the survivor role we have ds, unbreakable exhaustion perk and finally iron will/borrowed time(flex slot). How can you talk about the counterplay of spirit and ignore the fact that maybe survivor needs more means to manipulate information via noise control and scratch mark generation.
Its so frustrating how were trying to balance around such broken killer while broken survivor perks exist and are restricting killer design cough twins cough. Of course someone will chime back to hard to program even though most of these killer changes could have an equivalent survivor change that would be equally as easy to fix. Also suiciding on hooks is a crappy move I don't mind the killer getting dicked by the player leaving that means little to them but you have an obligation as a player to play out your games for the sake of your teammates.
1 -
She is not really out playable. All you are doing is guessing and hoping she messes up. Bad spirit players are the reason people think she has counterplay.
4 -
If someone hook suicides every time you find a Spirit then yeah she is pretty uncounterable, I mean at that point even a no perk no add on wraith is pretty uncounterable.
0 -
"All you are doing is guessing and hoping she messes up"
Kind of like playing an M1 killer and trying to mindgame and hope the survivor messes up?
0 -
I just hate when people reply like that same as with most. Simply because it doesn't help. People want help with the 1v1 not the 1v4 or 4v1. And they hate having to guess instead of having a set counter that can help
1 -
With an m1 killer, you can still predict and react accordingly to the killer's movement and actions most tiles still allow the survivor to keep their eye on you if they know how to peek correctly. With the spirit, if she is standing still you won't know if she is phasing or not. So you vault the pallet but luckily, you guess she was phasing. Otherwise, you keep running which could get you to take a hit. This could go both ways. When you mind game at most tiles as the average m1 killer, the survivor can still keep track of you enough to the point where the mind game doesn't work on them.
With spirit, it is just a guessing game. The spirit gives no information to the survivors when she is phasing or not while they are in a chase with her. The sad part is that this was intentional to her design which should definitely be changed.
1 -
I think you misunderstood my point, but firstly when you say predict and react thats how I feel about Spirit. You call it guessing but I'm often able to predict her next move in most cases. It just comes with experience. The fact that it happens the majority of times means it is prediction and not just a blind guess.
Secondly about being able to see m1 killers at most tiles thats even wose.
You say when you go against spirit you have to guess and hope they mess up, but as an m1 killer when you're chasing a survivor they can often see you, you cant hit them UNLESS THEY mess up. So what you say about spirit in a chase is like the inverse of a survivor and m1 killer chase.
0 -
theres even a set counter in that post, abuse her cooldown time, sure her power is one of the strongest in the game but she can't use it 24/7 abuse the fact it has a cooldown
0 -
I never had much problems with spirit post-nerf. Slinger, Huntress, Nurse are all much more annoying to play against.
0 -
The cooldown addons are what make her so cancer
1 -
double cooldown addons mean 5 second uptime 10 second cooldown 2 second charge up time and 7.0 m/s movement speed
that means before the spirit starts using her power she has to be within 7 meters of you or she doesn't have enough speed to land a hit if you just hold w
see even with that I know enough to formulate a plan of attack which is abuse her other abysmal attributes that aren't being buffed by addons
and also it takes her 15 seconds per try if she uses her full power thats still 15 seconds time for your team hit or not hit
0 -
Still it's annoying to go against it. Not that it's like super strong for me I just hate the guessing I dont like having to worry about whether my bets play off at every tile ya know?
0 -
True but you keep saying she's 'out playable', I also struggle with spirit and sometimes nurse.
So tell me how you outplay them.
0 -
Well Spirit I went into a bit in some of above posts already if you scroll up there and read through some of it. The jist of beating Spirit comes down to you have to force her to react to you, not you reacting to her. It's the complete opposite of how you play against all the other killers. I give an example of this strategy in some of my earlier posted examples in this thread.
Nurse is all about just breaking line of sight. This leads to your chances being very map dependent. If you're out in the open you're chances are low. You have to break line of sight from her first blink and force her second blink to be a guess in what direction you went. After you went around that corner did you keep running left, right, or even just stay standing there? This is the situation you have to put her into. When you break line of sight it makes her have to predict your movement, be unpredictable.
0 -
but having nothing up to chance ever is boring, wouldn't opening chests be less fun if every item inside was yellow or brown
0 -
As I said its the consistent 50 50 and the speed in which it happens.
0 -
Never really understood the whole "playing the game is the counter" argument.
1 -
The spirit has more counterplay than DS :þ
more seriously, the spirit is an exercise in understanding the other side's persepective. She can't see you, but she can hear you. If you drop a pallet, she can't know which side it was dropped from. If you run to a window and run to the side, she can't know if you'll double back or not. And you say stridor completely negates iron will, bit it doesn't; you're still quieter than normal brething, not to mention quieter than stridor breathing; that'll mess up their aim.
1 -
Alright heres the gist
a killer is much weaker in a 4v1 than a 3v1 even if the survivors are only applying light pressure
having 1 survivor on objectives at all times is easily done in a 4v1 and harder to manage in a 3v1
The continual mounting pressure of having 4 people and progress usually is enough to win the game
thats why most killers tunnel someone out early
1 -
Aight, we just gonna ignore the fact that there is a killer that has LEGITIMATELY no counter-play in the game?
Her name is Sally, she can go through walls, ignore pallets and 95% of rules and items set into the game. For the love of the entity can we stop complaining about killers who can be outplayed when there is one who can NEVER be outplayed if they are sweaty/skilled enough.
Because complaints about any killer other than The Nurse, you just sound childish and like you haven't had much experience with survivor. If any killer is deserving of any type of nerf, its the one that actually can do damage if skilled.
0 -
Ya, I'm more than aware of the basic premise. The flaw here is thinking 4 random people, with zero history and no basic method of communication can coordinate their efforts with minimal information, on a regular basis.
1 -
The flaw is 4 bad random thinking people, 4 good or better random thinking people can do much better
0 -
I've seen high rank red players make the same mistakes: as a survivor and as a killer. It's Russian roulette and therefore chance. Chance isn't a counter.
1 -
just because spirit doesn't have an easy counter doesn't mean you don't try to do anything
just because you don't have as much counterplay as you like doesn't mean you don't have all the tools to succeeded it just shows that you refuse to use them because you think you are entitled to more or easier to use tools
0 -
Incorrect.
I never said I personally had an issue with Spirit, I'm pointing out the response "The counter is just to play the game" or any watered down/more complicated version of it is not actual counterplay. Counterplay is by definition a proactive action an individual or a group can take to specifically force a reaction from an offensive force. The threat of generators being completed and the gate opening is the motivating factor of the Killer to pursue Survivors; The completion of generators and escape through gates is the sole factor between success or failure. You're trying to argue the counter to the killer is to "Do Gens," but that's not the counter, that's the core gameplay.
2 -
Core gameplay can't include counterplay? really
what about the game rock, paper, scissors where the entire game is counterplay
saying that core gameplay can't be included in counterplay removes 7/8ths of the argument so you can create a scenario where you are specifically correct in saying x has no counterplay
0 -
Core gameplay is that gameplay which is most frequently undertaken and indispensable. Saying this is counterplay undermines the idea of what counterplay is, it's the difference between shooting your gun in an FPS and throwing a flashbang around the corner. Also, your example is terrible, because RPS is literally a guessing game. If you think because Paper wins against Rock, that means theres counterplay, you have little business telling others what is and isn't.
0 -
Against Nurse you have fun and still predict.
Spirit you can't you are just coin flipping and guess what ? What you learned into the game is gone, nothing you can do, neither pallet.
0
![[Deleted User]](https://forums.bhvr.com/applications/dashboard/design/images/defaulticon.png)
