I Tried Spirit...
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”You said m1 them and then immediately down them. M1'ing them is not using some of your power...”
What button do you press to injure and down survivors as spirit? You’re arguing semantics because you assumed too much in your last response.
“You have very strong opinions a killer that you don't have much experience on. You just got her to level 50...meaning you are newer on her. That isn't even meant as an insult. I wouldn't have a very strong/argumentative opinion on a killer that I had just got to level 50.”
I disagree that my opinion that she’s easy to pick up and do well with at high rank play is a strong opinion when that’s exactly what I did. That’s my experience and that makes it true. In all my games I never lost while leveling her. I’ll play her more today and let you know if I have any new opinions though.
“You find something funny that I never actually said? I never said top 50%. You are quite literally making things up. By all means scroll up and post my quote if you can find it. All I have said is probably top 5 skill requiring killers and asks more than 90% of the killer roster, that's it. That is a true statement and is not contradictory.”
Nah, you literally said she was top 5 when it came to skill and backtracked to top 10. You can read your own post history.
“We aren't saying Spirit is easy or hard in an isolated environment. We are using easy or hard in comparison to the rest of the killer roster. Comparatively reading with sound while blind is much hard than the majority of the killer roster requirements to perform. Once again this is comparatively, not whether reading with sound is in general easy or hard.”
Yes... Tracking a survivor without sight and only sound is technically harder, but not much. Not enough to say Spirit is hard to play. As in my experience of playing her most of the day yesterday points to tracking by sound being incredibly easy after a brief adjustment period.
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It’s gotten to the point that this community is just obsessed with Spirit because they won’t shut up about her. Just because you’ve had a few games that you 4k’d against teams that none of us know if they’re good or not, doesn’t mean anything. I 4k’d my first few matches as Blight so therefore he’s ez mode according to your logic...
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"What button do you press to injure and down survivors as spirit? You’re arguing semantics because you assumed too much in your last response."
Taking you verbatum by your words is not assuming anything. It is you not using accurate wording. Pressing m1 to get the hit in a literal sense is not what the games population means they they say m1'ing someone. That is either you not being up to date on the games terminology that people use or it's backtracking because you don't want to admit to inaccurate word choice.
"In all my games I never lost while leveling her."
A killer being easy to use and doing well with her =/= the same thing. People suck at playing against Spirit meaning lots of people die to her. That does not de facto imply that she is easy. Those are different things you are construing.
"Nah, you literally said she was top 5 when it came to skill and backtracked to top 10. You can read your own post history."
My words were "probably top 5 skill requiring" and "asks differently of you than 90% of the killer roster". Those are not the same thing. You are misinterpreting what these words mean.
Asking something different of you than most of the other killers is not the same thing as saying the amount of skill they require. Those are not synonymous which is how you are viewing them which is why you think it's contradictory.
"Yes... Tracking a survivor without sight and only sound is technically harder, but not much. Not enough to say Spirit is hard to play. As in my experience of playing her most of the day yesterday points to tracking by sound being incredibly easy after a brief adjustment period."
Yes it doesn't seem much harder when you play against bad survivors. However by this statement you are admitting that she is indeed harder. My statements were never to what degree she was harder, just in fact harder.
So you have agreed with me after all this because you thought I was making a different argument than I was actually making.
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Sure I should have said I phased for a couple seconds, smacked them, and phased again to smack them again.
Ok so now it’s that for all the games I played, about 1.6 million bp worth, I only played against bad survivors. That’s the only possible way I could think spirit is easy to pick up and play. It couldn’t be that she’s actually just easy.
It’s not difficult to track survivors with only sound, grass, and scratch marks. You can try and say it is as much as you want, but that doesn’t make it true.
Like I said if you have basic knowledge of the game you will do very well with spirit and even if the survivors are good you will make them look bad.
Also, you said she was top 5 and then backtracked to top 10. I don’t know why you can’t just accept that lmao
Your argument is that on the most technical level she is harder because you can’t see. My argument is that not being able to see doesn’t out weight everything else about her kit, making her easy for experienced killers.
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Yes in my experience it was ez and it wasn’t a few games... I ended up playing her enough to get her to 50. I had bbq at rank 2 so that’s what 40-50k bp per match? Being generous with the bp gain that’s 32 matches.
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Just because she was easy to you doesn't mean she's easy for everyone. We really need to drop the "use a headset to easily 4k with Spirit" narrative already because it's kinda silly. Freddy is the ez mode character we should be talking about.
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Not to play devils advocate but how was the skill of the survivors you were facing? I'm not talking just hours. I mean were they actually playing well or were they making mistakes left and right?
I suck with spirit and the Nurse is my 2nd most used killer. I'm familiar with difficult mechanics but I just suck finding people with Spirit.
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Oh yeah no Freddy is 100% the easiest killer in the game
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They were mostly average? Most games got down to 2 gens and some 1. Some were obviously good loopers and likely would have ran me for a hot minute if I was a basic m1 killer. I’m not saying I ever went against a swat team while I was playing her. I’m sure a coordinated swf could do me dirty. Like I said one swf made me sweat a bit but I capitalized on some mistakes at the end and 4ked
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Can't you spin that argument around though?
A Spirit Player needs to know how to use her power but doesn't need to know much about mindgames, while someone who plays an M1-Killer needs to master the Killer's ability and mindgames, because an M1-Killer is a lot more prone to be looped than Spirit is.
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It kinda highlights why killers whose powers help them during a chase are the meta.
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Getting a single kill as Freddy takes quite a bit of effort and most weaknesses of m1 killers apply to him, especially if you're running fake pallets. The general complaint is that Freddy has 4 abilities that are all useful, not that he can't be outplayed.
Spirit you really can't outplay without running a dumb no mither stealth build, the bastard will hear you and get a free hit unless you're just sitting on a pallet and the coin flip of hit validation is on your side
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I do agree with that, Spirit for sure needs a rework to make standing still a lot weaker and reliable counterplay, but the Spirit player still needs to be good and know what they’re doing. Bad Spirits are honestly really easy to deal with.
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Would be nice to play against you. The last couple of spirits i played against never managed a 4k, the highst was one with a 3k, and that one was heavy into camping and tunneling. Still didnt get me. Most of the other spirits just got 1k, while the rest escaped. but to be fair, i only encounterd 5 spirits in my last 60 games, and thats what i kept stats of. And yes, 4 out of 5 spirits did run stidor, yet i was able to juke them even injured multiple times.
Most people just dont know how to play vs spirit, other than trying to run in circles like every other killer.
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Nice bait
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"Also, you said she was top 5 and then backtracked to top 10. I don’t know why you can’t just accept that lmao"
I'm really trying not to be rude with my wording here but that is not what I said at all. Seriously, stop and reread what I wrote again. You are misinterpreting the wording that was used.
Top 5 skill requiring and saying that she asks more of you than 90% of the roster is not the same thing, this is basic reading comprehension. Asking more of someone =/= skill.
"Your argument is that on the most technical level she is harder because you can’t see. "
This is why you're not understanding me. ^^^ This is not what I am saying at all. You're reading what the point you think I'm making is instead of what I'm actually saying.
"My argument is that not being able to see doesn’t out weight everything else about her kit, making her easy for experienced killers."
Your original forum statement is that Spirit was easy, not that Spirit was easy for an experienced killer.
Easy is also highly subjective. Easier than most other killers to pick up? No. Easy in general for someone very experienced? Sure. We can say that about almost every killer.
When you say Spirit is easy, for the general population that isn't a true statement compared to the other killers on the roster.
"Ok so now it’s that for all the games I played, about 1.6 million bp worth"
This is an insanely small sample size. I would never be on these forums arguing with someone about how easy a killer is with that small of a sample size.
That's like someone coming on here arguing that they have a good understanding of the games balance after 50 hours with someone that has thousands. 1.6mil is literally a nights worth of matches...if that.
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My Spirit main roommate I mentioned earlier can only do well with Spirit and sucks hard with other killers, that's why they main Spirit (besides liking her design). They have done so since they began playing the game, so I disagree with "any new player would find Spirit much more difficult" as I have personally seen that's not true.
Part of the issue is because Spirit is so dumb strong, you can make more mistakes with her and still come out on top. You don't need to master her or anything. In relation to the rest of the killer roster, she is the easiest to have just some basic game knowledge and begin winning much more than you would with other much more loopable and weaker killers.
Hard to master maybe, but easy to win with, as is more commonly said, easy to play, hard to master. Its not like nurse where you need to be right on top of them when you blink to hit them, being in the general spot where they are when you unphase will net you a hit unless they are literally right under a pallet and drop it in time if they guessed what side you appear on correctly and you don't hit them through it. Tracking with scratch marks and sound isn't hard, every killer has to do it. Every killer isn't spirit strong.
The statement wasn't "is Spirit easy as Wraith to play" its just "Spirit is easy". Which I believe she is. However I could say "Spirit is easier to win with than Wraith/most killers here", which I believe is true. If she wasn't as strong then maybe, but she is. Part of how easy it is to play a killer is how easy it is to win with them, and I think we can all agree winning with Spirit is much easier than that grand majority of the killer roster.
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You're misconstruing "easy to win with" and "easy".
In "easy" we are referencing skill to use, not the outcome of winning or losing.
That is to say that winning lots of matches does not imply easy. As I pointed out earlier, lots of bad/new players don't know how to play against Spirit.
IE you could win lots of matches with Spirit because survivors are bad.
So "easy to win" would be a statement I could see more argument behind rather than the argument of "easy". This is because the first statement is factoring in the players you are against, not simply you as the Spirit in the second statement.
I guess you are viewing these an synonymous while I do not.
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Would be nice to play against those Spirits, it sounds like they were bad. I'm not exactly a god spirit or anything, I'd hesitate to even say I'm a good spirit. But even so I find winning with her much easier than most of the roster.
But I have also seen some bad Spirits. I personally know people who are so bad at the game even Spirit doesn't help too much. There's just exceptionally bad players is all.
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I don't care about new players playing spirit because they'll either quit or become experienced. So, I only care if it's easy for experienced killers. She's easy. Not every killer is easily picked up by an experienced killer and played very well while using their power. Spirit's power is very easy to use lmao
"This is an insanely small sample size. I would never be on these forums arguing with someone about how easy a killer is with that small of a sample size."
At LEAST 32 games isn't a small sample size
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But I also said she's still easy. Maybe not hold W hit M1 easy, but easy. Like I also said, its not necessarily that she's easier than playing an M1, But she's still easy. Harder than M1 maybe, hard in general no.
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Okay if you want to go that route then we can talk experienced vs experienced player.
The problem is your sample size is not experienced vs experienced. Red ranks are polluted with bad players currently from a flawed ranking system and the last rank reset change. This is has made bad survivors pile up in red ranks that have no business being there. IE even in red ranks we are playing realistically red-green players. That is a lot of potatoes.
If we were doing actual good vs good players you would not be picking up Spirit easily.
Also, 32 matches is insanely small.
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"there's a good killer in the game, plznerfimmediately"
lord forbid
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Well where do we draw our reference material for easy?
Compared to the rest of the killer roster she is not easy. This is where I have been comparing from in my previous posts.
If we're not basing it on anything then we could just say DBD in general is easy. Sure I can agree DBD in general is easy. Without basing it on anything saying something is easy doesn't really have much weight to me as it's extremely subjective. By comparing it to other killers we start to make it more objective. More, not de facto though still.
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Yeah, no. 32 games with a killer is definitely enough to decide how you feel about the killer. Do you genuinely think that in what was at least 32 games (likely more because I didn't get 50k bp every game) that I only went against boosted survivors? Because I find that harder to believe than Spirit just being easy for experienced killers to pick up.
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To be fair, in those 60 games my escape rate was about 80% so far, and 4ks in general were rarer than 0ks. But its just my experience, and certainly a lot of rng is involved, since i only play solo, and a lot depends on what allys you get. But even then, its a small sample size with no statistical impact other than my own performance.
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Well ok, well compared to using say Blight or Nurses power, 2 that are generally considered fairly difficult from what I gather, she doesn't even come close. I personally also find her easier to play than the aiming killers like Huntress and ect., don't know if others feel the same. I could also potentially see her power as also easier to just use well than the trapping killers since she doesn't need set up or similar map knowledge or anything.
She's very much on the level of most basic killers, all her power is is a speed boost while invisible. Which is very strong, but very simple.
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Easy is being able to use the killers power efficiently after little time playing them. IE get hits a majority of time while phasing or predicting pathing when not using it for distance. Her power is much stronger than most powers with little draw backs. It's also easy to adapt to after a short time playing with her, in my experience, which means I would of course find her easier than a lot of the roster.
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Oh of course, that's why I said probably top 5, not top. I would also put Nurse, Blight and Huntress above her.
"She's very much on the level of most basic killers, all her power is is a speed boost while invisible. Which is very strong, but very simple."
I feel that's a bit disingenuous. It isn't just an invisible stealth boost. She is also giving all of the survivors a stealth...that is not a small caveat by any means. She also can't brute force a hit since she's 110%. You could be a Trapper that just sucks a putting traps down correctly and still brute force hits since you're 115%.
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I never said 32 games wasn't enough to decide how you feel about a killer.
What I said was that 32 games wasn't enough to have a good enough understanding of a killer to be able to rationally come to the forums arguing about the ease of a killer comparatively to other killers. You can decide how you feel about a killer after 32 games personally, but that doesn't mean it's an objective status of said killer.
"Do you genuinely think that in what was at least 32 games (likely more because I didn't get 50k bp every game) that I only went against boosted survivors? Because I find that harder to believe than Spirit just being easy for experienced killers to pick up."
No, I don't think that. You probably did go against some above average players in those matches. However, above average isn't what we're talking about. We're talking about good vs good. Above average isn't good as even average in DBD is quite bad.
Like just because I can win 50 matches in a row at red ranks with Clown doesn't mean Clown is good.
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I do generally escape more often than I don't but I just chalk that up to survivor strength rn and that I usually play with friends. We're not in call or anything but at least I don't have to roll the teammate dice. They might be bad but their not random player bad
Just as someone who plays both sides Spirit is probably the killer I dislike the most because she's such a pain to play against and also one I find easy when I play as her. Also drawing in from their experience they for the most part feel the same except for 1 who literally can't play her because he's deaf.
I try not to judge a killer based on when others play them too much because I don't know anything about said person, I try to do most of my judgements when I play as them personally. The only thing I can really take away from those games is things about the killer itself like "how strong is the power? How easy is it to counter? How does it feel to play against?" since you need both sides for things like that.
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She Requires Skill but not much. Maybe at tournament level play against swf that really gen rush
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I'm referencing good vs good matches and skill comparatively to others killers, not isolated skill as that's more subjective.
That is to say a statement that Spirit has an easier time on average against average players would be a statement I'd more agree with. That's because this statement focuses more on average matches and on match outcomes than it does her actual status of skill requirement in a more objective stance.
I do think these are saying two very different things in other words.
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Survivors generally not being great doesn't equate to her power not being easy to use it can be both. I decided after 32+ games with a killer and using their power that it was easy to pick up and grasp relatively quickly. That might be different for you, but for me it was easy. So, logically I would think Spirit is easier than basic m1 killers to pick up and play for other experienced killers.
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Subjectively? Sure
Ease by outcome of match? Sure
Where I disagree is objectively compared to other killers based on skill needed, not outcome of match, as I think those are very different things that I've been trying to illustrate the difference between here today.
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Yeah the last spirits I've been up against sucked too
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Yes congratulations you won as the most busted character in the game. I'd hope it was easy when bhvr refuses to actually nerf her
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I'm not gonna lie I didnt full get the entirety of what you said but I get the gist. And yeah average players suck but even good players lose. Idk I think this is a hard topic if you try and go into detail about skills. Because even if you have an amazing 3 person swf who does tournaments but 1 solo you can still win once you capitalize. Idk tho but what I can say is she is one of the easiest killers in a regular setting. Also I messaged you on discord
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@Blueberry sorry i dragged you into this 🤣🤣🤣
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We could look at another example that illustrates the complete opposite to get where I'm going.
So in average matches and in most match outcomes Nurse loses. We know this by objective data provided by the devs. So, by this data do we conclude that Nurse is bad? Of course not.
How do we see Nurses true objective stance? We look at good vs good players
So just in the same essence that Nurse losing most matches doesn't mean she's bad, Spirit winning many matches doesn't imply she's easy. This is because we have to factor in that it's not just how easy it is for you to play them, but also how easy it is for survivors to play against them. IE the level of difficulty there is in Spirits counter play is what can make her seem like she's easier to play.
This is also if we ignore the data from the devs showing that technically Spirit doesn't win that much.
I think more matches are won on Spirit by what the survivors are doing incorrectly rather than what the Spirits done correctly in other words.
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It's okay lol.
I was tempted to almost not even enter the conversation as this is honestly beating a dead horse type of conversation. I've already had this same conversations like dozens and dozens of times throughout the years on the forums and it's all the same stuff. Every time I wish i had just saved the posts so I could go back to copy/paste my thoughts to not have to always retype everything.
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On brute force: Well I mean she can you'll just take longer. But I see what you mean. I just don't think its that big a deal since you can unphase near them and cut a very large portion of that time out even if you don't get right on top of them and still probably end the chase much faster than a 115% can since they need to walk all of it.
On power simplification: Yeah that's kinda oversimplifying her power, but I never really saw the losing survivor vision as a big deal either since the scratch marks and sounds will lead you right to them anyway, so what is it really doing? Maybe if your bad at picking up sounds it'll be rougher for you but so will killer in general and then we're going off of players ill suited for that particular character. Sometimes a character just isn't for someone, in any game, not just this one.
It really depends on where you draw the line. If your view is just any killer that isn't M1 based is not easy then that's half the roster or more. I believe a big part of this conversation that might not have been touched on is where do we draw the line between easy and not easy.
She's 1 step over an M1 from what I consider "difficulty" in a killer, which is not saying much, in my opinion and based on my experience playing killer (I'm not saying killer is easy in case that was a thought anyone has).Going into detail why, if you care:
Just using the same criteria I put above (Aim, trap, hard movement) for augments sake, that would put Nurse, Blight, Hag, Trapper, Huntress, Cone Head, Demo, Twins and Death slinger above her (9 so far). If we loosen the restriction a bit to some easier killer powers we could also add Oni, Hillbilly, and Pig (12). Clown and Doctor have aoe so they're not exactly hard to use, so I can exempt them. Not saying I think absolutely all of these killers are necessarily hard to use, but I'd find it hard to put her in my top 5. Could put her in my top 10, but thats about it. In a game of 22 killers she might make top 50% maybe and the rest are all pretty much M1 killers. So not counting the bare minimum which is M1 with a support power, she'd still be on the bottom portion.
Its hard for me to really see Spirit as not easy when I have someone I spend a lot of time with who can't function as a basic killer as they will miss scratch marks outside of a chase that are right in front of them, never mind game loops, not the best at picking up sounds and need to run predator because they can't follow scratch marks otherwise. You would think this person would struggle as Spirit, yet this same person mains Spirit because they find them the easiest to play and plays her by running down every healthy survivor and only phasing in chase when they're injured. They still phase to get around the map and such, and yes it is pain in my soul to watch, but they still get at least 1 kill in most of their games and usually 2 and sometimes more. Especially coupled with my own experiences of mostly 3-4k's with Spirit so far, I just find it hard to put her in outside the "easy" category given everything I've seen and experienced. Maybe if I played her more regularly I'd see more, but the rare times I do play her its much more laid back.
She gives a lot of leeway that other killers don't have.
Post edited by MrPenguin on0 -
Yep... She's pretty easy to play if you know how to play killer.
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Hmm I mean it makes sense but I also think those comparisons arent the best. Nurse loses because she is hard to get good at and spirit is easy because on average people arent that good. But because of the lack of good players playing together all the time we cant say for sure. But you. can also quantify it as shr is hard to win against good swf. Her ability is only easy for people who have experience. So I dont know I feel like it could be either or
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Is it 32 matches with 4K on all of them? If it is a 4K on all the matches, 32 is not insanely small..
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With the matchmaking the way it is right now, this means literally nothing. Even at red ranks, killers are facing babu survivors 90% of the time. A competent team (an actual competent team, not the ones who come here and say they are good because of their inflated egos) isn't going down to a Spirit that easy.
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Only 10-15 4k's?
I hit a smooth 1000 in a row the first time I tried spirit.
Now, I gotta say, only 800 of them were against SWF (and only 600 of those had keys - I got lucky 5 sure).
All Rank 1, too.
Switched to EU servers so I would have a bit of a challenge, but I was sorely disappointed.
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Too add to my previous reply - I recently had 2 streaks, one as Clown, one as Demogorgon.
Clown Build: BBQ, STBFL, Brutal, Pop
Demo Build: BBQ, STBFL, Corrupt, Mad Grit
I made it to 61 as Clown (lost to a key), and 47 as Demogorgon. Of course this was over the course of about a month, cause I don't ONLY play those 2 killers. Point is, did I make it that far with these relatively weak (though, Demo doesn't get the credit he deserves, he IS underrated) killers because they are strong? Was it because I'm the best killer in DBD (I'm above average, but that's not saying much)? or was it because the survivors were mostly bad, due to the terrible matchmaking?
It was the latter.
Thus, your "I won a bunch with spirit" malarkey is just that. Malarkey.
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Finally someone I can relate to
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