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Second Chance Perks
For survivors, second chance perks have become the meta simply because of the obvious use. They allow the survivor to get away in one manner or another after the killer has caught them. They are extremely powerful, and are often paired together to create builds with no counter play. My suggestion is to create something similar to exhaustion, called second wind. Once a second chance perk has been activated, second wind is activated. It last for the remainder of the match and prevents all second chance perks from being used. I think it would go a long way towards balancing this game, while still allowing survivors to get at least one second chance. Let me know what you all think.
Addendum: Was thinking of the problem with DS+Unbreakable and came up with something. While a second chance perk is currently active but unused, other second chance perks cannot be used or activated. So while DS is counting down, Unbreakable will not allow you to stand back up. Your Second Wind (name pending) will not be used up unless DS is procced. If you do get slugged but DS runs out, you will be able to use Unbreakable.
Comments
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So completely remove potentially 3 perks from a survivors loadout? If this was made then I would personally also expect one that only allows killers to use 1 slowdown perk.
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I would say slowdown perks are not in the same ball park personally, but I see where you are coming from. My argument is they don't work great together already. Theres also the fact aside from corrupt intervention, work has to be put into slowdown perks to get them to work. Thantaphobia requires you to wound survivors. PGTW requires you to hook a survivor and then kick a gen. Ruin requires you to put pressure on gens and can be destroyed and removed from the game. And outside of those there really isn't anything else. While DS, BT, Unbreakable and Soul Guard require little to no work to activate, and can be used multiple times per game. One of the few that require actual work is Deliveriance, and to an even greater degree Second Wind. (Which means I likely need to think of another name for that debuff I realize.)
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Someone once made an idea about a mechanic that buffs slowdown perks when used themselves while weakening them the more you put in your load-out.
I can see that being applied if this "Second Wind" idea is added
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thats me
I still stand by it too
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I have a few questions and concerns.
If this were to happen wouldn't there need to be a compromise with the killers to minimize the amount of tunneling, slugging and camping they do? I mean thats the reason why Survivors take second chance perks right, as a way to handle these strategies better?
Also I have to ask, when is a second chance perk justified, and when is it ok to use a second chance perk? When is it that using them makes the game fair?
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The survivor meta is far more powerful than a killer even running 4 slow down perks. Not a valid comparison.
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Honestly I would say they are not fair at all personally. But I find once per match per survivor at least somewhat acceptable.
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Would you say the same thing about killer second chance perks as well?
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I would, if I knew or any? I guess NoED? I’m fine with that being nerfed in exchanged or Changed to not be a second chance
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Well if you decide to run 4 exhaustion perks and are suprised when you can only use SB I'm not going to explain what you didn't take 3 seconds to wrap your head around
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Could you please tell me where I talked about using 4 exhaustion perks? Do you know what a second chance perk is?
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"Wouldn't there need to be a compromise...?"
No. No there ######### wouldn't.
When something on one side is blatantly not behaving correctly, you shouldn't demand an unneeded concession to be willing to give up that thing that isn't working correctly. This is blatant Whataboutism that mysteriously doesn't happen when its something relevant to a over-preforming killer tool: No survivor main was offering up DS-Unbreakable in exchange for undying-ruin, but for SOME REASON when people point out that DS-Unbreakable has a similar unhealthy effect on the game where it screws one side over without any real interaction, survivors start demanding concessions.
No. You do not NEED something that deals with slugs AND tunneling. Know why?
Because those are the two main strategies killers have to win. Its just good play. By asking for some way for the killer both choosing to eliminate you and choosing to NOT eliminate you to not incapacitate you, your asking for invulnerability.
Killers in DBD win matches by one of two ways: A quick elimination, or by pressuring multiple survivors. Being able to freely slug is a vital tool for the second. If two survivors string together a chase on a killer one after another, the survivors don't get to complain the killer isn't dropping a chase to hook, because the killer can only win via snowball in most matches. You aren't complaining about something unfair, your complaining about the killer making choices on time management, one of the most basic elements of the game it takes to win, and its super gross.
If you don't want to get slugged, and don't want to get picked up after being hooked, you want to be invulnerable after being hooked no matter what you do, which is obviously stupid, and its why basically everyone who plays DBD, survivor or killer, wants DS-Unbreakable gone: Its way too good because its 1 minute of effective invulerability that lets you do dumb stuff like a gen or totem right in front of a killer's face with the killer having no real counterplay to it: they either have to puppy guard you for a full minute or let you get up and do the objective anyway scot free.
From a killer side, its just not fun for survivors to just blatantly play this way, because it clearly isn't how the game is meant to work, the killer is meant to be able to protect objectives and these two defensive perks combine into a dumb offensive one. But its also lame from a survivor perspective because if your not running these two perks your at a MASSIVE disadvantage and it crowds out more interesting and diverse builds to have 75% of your perk slots pre-decided.
And it isn't even 'destroy these two perks.' Its simply that these perks INTERACT unhealthily. DS on its own is fine and not very good. Unbreakable on its own is fine and not very good. But together they are the most toxic S+++ god tier perks in the game. So some method of making them not work together is critical.
For example, the commonly suggested DS sidegrade that makes it BETTER at anti-tunnel but removes all of its offensive power: It lasts 30 seconds, does not tick down if your in a chase or on the ground, instantly goes away if you start to do a gen, self care, do a totem, unhook someone, go in a locker, or heal someone else. Boom, now you literally CAN'T be tunneled with this perk ever, the killer can't even slug you and wait a minute to get rid of it anymore! But you also can't advance the game ever, so you can't sit down and do a totem in the killer's face confident unbreakable, because by definition if you do that your not being tunneled as the killer is just protecting their objective now, and the killer now knows they can pick you up 100% safely.
Boom. Better in every way you allegedly care about. Worse in every way the killers care about. Everyone, in theory, wins here right? Unless you really just want to be able to use DS-Unbreakable to do a gen and don't reaaalllly care about being tunneled.
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I think second chance perks are the noed of survivors but 1000x worse.
They basically imply just liek noed you worked really hard to get me but now I'm going to spit in your face and delete all your progress.
Imagine 16 noeds one that aplies early game one that aplies after 2 gens after 3 gens and after the 5th gen on all 4 survivors.
They're unhealthy for the game like hostage doctor yet actually nearly guarantee 2-3 escapes when played optimally, the killer either stares into a corner of the map or face camps.
There's a second chance perk for when you get hooked, slugged, "tunneled", literally just chased when the last gens completed, stand infront of the killer doing a gen, afk for 60 seconds after an unhook, ect.
basically all these scenarios are punishable by multiple meta perks.
noed isn't even meta.
These perks are game breaking.
In regards to an anti camp tunnel or slug measure:
Why is slugging punished? It's a strategic choice a killer makes that they've wasted time to invest in you can't allow people to just click a button and win dbd, not even a joke it removes any and all pressure in any slugging situation.
Tunneling/Facecamping is throwing the game, I'd say just if the killer camps a survivor they gain emblem points 60 seconds of proximity = automatic iridescent evader and lightbringer to a lesser degree. If not facecamping then in all fairness evader will already be high bc you get the BT hit and gtfo; you have the ENTIRE MAPS SUPPLIES it basically just comes down to not being stupid and running the killer for enough time you have every pallet in the world, maybe if you have been chased for more than 4 minutes you get automatic iri unbroken (after 2 start gaining unbroken points). this would reward people who are actually capable of running the killer for long
Camping has many types so let's go over them
facecamping: It's the exact same thing as tunneling in my opinion just on the hook and is always used with tunneling, i Have never seen nor myself facecamped without tunneling but i have tunneled without facecamping.
proxy camping: I think this comes down to general strategy, giving the killer an easy patrol with a 3 gen is the same as an easy patrol with a hook. You have the tools to leave and force him to leave. Survivors don't understand that THEY control the match's pace and where the killer goes either force him to facecamp or force him to leave.
soft camping/ patrolling: This imo is different to proxy camping this is when I go out of my way to check the hook (not directly on my path). Thsi is the most deadly form of camping cuz you can still spread pressure that being said, if you get chased a teammate with bond could see that and then go for the save. This is mostly used just as a way to bait out overly altruistic actions. Don't save if you don't have the tools and dedication to do so you can get his attention and then it will be like he never was ever patrolling.
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I said that in reference to the post, quote: *"to create something similar to exhaustion"*
you said: "So completely remove potentially 3 perks from a survivors loadout?"
I referenced the original post by using his exhaustion comparison, this is the only thing we have the idea to base on:
so yes if you ran 4 exhaustion perks it wouldn't work and if this guys idea was implemented running 4 second chance perks wouldn't either.
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I'm literally referencing the Original post that you decided to comment on I thought you would've read it before projecting your opinion onto others.
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I agree that killers have strategies such as slugging and tunneling to help them win and stop survivors but like all strategies they have and should have counters, a strategy that has no counterplay is overpowered no matter how you slice it. Have you even stopped to consider why DS and Unbreakable were made in the first place? Its was made to counter strategies such as this. Its why people dread playing in matched were there is no obsession because the killer has nothing to stop them from deploying this overpowered strategy. Yes killerd win by snowballing but there has to be a viable way to stop or slowdown that snowball otherwise there would be no way to win. I disagree with making to two perks unable to be played with each. It needlessly destroy its synergy and limits options for the survivor. And I can fully agree how overpowered DS and Unbreakable it is. There are better steps that can be made to nerf its synergy to still be viable while not overpowered. I'm all for it.
And whats wrong with asking for compromises? Killers ask for compromise all the time. When pop was nerfed people wanted the compromise of DS being nerfed too. Which would have been fair.
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So your little idea would make swf a little bit less powerful and screw Solo q. No thank you.
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Depends on your definition of a second chance perk.
I think this works if Unbreakable and DS are the only ones considered. Makes perfect sense. But you start throwing other perks in there, and it's going to cause problems. Some people consider "Dead Hard" a second chance perk (it's not. It's an exhaustion perk which already has its own limits). Others consider "Borrowed Time" one (again, it's not.)
But DS/Unbreakable could definitely use a mechanic that disables the other if one is used. Though I do think Survivors should get a choice to use Unbreakable OR DS, and it should be their choice rather than the choice being made for them.
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I can agree these perks are gamebreaking, but you have to understand why theses perks were made in the first place. Sure slugging and tunneling are strategies but strategies that have no counter is overpowered. These perks were made to counter these strategies to give both side a fair chance if the killer decides to use these strategies. The devs have overdid it with the counters to the strategies. But ultimately this is why I say that second chance perks can make the game fair.
To your point about camping, I think the real strategy thats the best is proxy camping. And I find perks like borrowed time a counter to those strategy.
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The counter is actually work as a team. If the killer slugs, someone else gets that person up. If they are tunneling, take a hit for the teammate getting tunneled. Its the power of survivors is being a TEAM. Perks that allow them to solo deal with a killer are over powered.
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Actually the reference to exhaustion was not on the original post as far as I am aware, it's completely possible that OP edited it to adjust the suggestion.
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It actually was, my edit was to fix some spelling and then a second edit to add the Addendum.
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Ah I see, sorry, it was a mistake on my part then
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This is a genuine question.
But isn't doing that still giving pressure to the killer, and adding on to thier snowball effect?
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Getting hit, to a point yes. Getting someone up seems like its taking pressure away from the killer, even if your not on a gen because of it. And the problem I feel with your question is that it makes it seems like the killer should just not get pressure from someone unhooking near them at all. I may be misreading that. Like, are you wanting the killer to play in a certain way?
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No definitely not, I don't want killers to play a certain way, killers should play the way they want. I'm sorry if it comes off as this.
But ultimately what im concerned with is balancing. I know how overpowered survivors and their perks are but I don't want to shift the balance of power completely to the other side.
Again sorry if I come off as being entitled. This is not my intention
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But I do want to shift some of that balance over to the killer. I want them to be strong and have to make teams work, and for it to be less stressful. I don't want them to be unstoppable murder machines...but I would like them to be closer to that and not feel like they can be bullied. And I feel like one second chance perk per survivor is still plenty of power, without allowing ridiculous builds like DS+Unbreakable+Soulguard+Exhuastion.
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I can agree with what you want, and I would like for there to be more of an emphasis on team.
Ideally 4 survivor should equal 1 killer. But you can't always rely on your teammates right? And so for the cases in which you can't really on teammates shouldn't there be some things to help yourself? This is a genuine question.
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While i agree on the ds unbreakable countering slugging and tunneling making sense some others don't, my beef as someone red both sides is honestly dead hard or adrenaline. Smacked a survivor and are about to down them at the last gen left? Nope they fully heal and are gone. But definitely dh is the worser here. Sprint burst requires you not running if you use it the intended way, Lithe needs a window,Adrenaline doing all the gens, And balanced landing a fall. Dead hard requires nothing to activate it besides the obvious being injured which you can force in most cases. Your out of position and won't make it to a vault or pallet? Dead hards gochu homie. You out of position and are about to go down? Now here comes in its intended affect and dodging a hit for free. Dead hard for distance is a example of skill not mattering a perk just nullifying the killers skill. Not to mention in the niche cases you can deadhard over a trapper trap dead hard out of a deathslinger snipe or huntress hatchet. Hard counters nurse and legion as well making them stun themselves.
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Already done. Ruin blocks pop and surge and can be disabled, surge blocks pop, and huntress lullaby means nothing to a decent survivor. Oppression cant be used with ruin and has no real synergy. I forget many other perks but you get the point
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Yes, which is why I think one second chance per survivor is perfect for that. It allows for a survivor to get away even if thier teammates are not they best or they are having a rough time. But it dosen't allow for multiple free escapes, broken combos and SWF abuse (as much).
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Ok I think I can accept what your suggesting.
So if something like this was implemented how would it work? 1 person can only use DS out of 4 and the other survivors (if they have it) have to play with only 3 perks? Dose this only work with DS and Unbreakable or with other second chance perks?
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More if all of them where running DS, each of them could use it. But they couldn't use it with unbreakable, or soulguard, or Deliveriance, and things similar to it. Like exhaustion works with Sprint Burst, Dead Hard, and so on. But only once per match instead of every 40/50/60 seconds. So that each survivor per team gets one second chance.
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I Think this could work but deliverance? Is deliverance and DS really overpowered? Plus i wouldn't consider Deliverance a second chance perk since its dependent on getting a safe unhook first.
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I like this idea. Have it so that you can still bring DS and Unbreakable so that you have a better chance at getting a second chance, but make it so that you don't get a third chance later on.
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blablabla you're ok to nerf NOED too ?
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Deliverance being exempt is a problem because it allows, at least on the first hook, the killer to not be able to use hook pressure to try to snowball going into another chase. Again, on its own its fine, but combined with say... DS it gets a lil gross because you can unhook yourself right in the killer's face and then stab em, or stab em despite not being tunneled overall.
You don't see it as often as DS-Unbreakable, but that isn't a strike against it. If either of those two were nerfed (especially unbreakable), it would pretty much instantly replace them as meta. It already is borderline meta.
NOED is often complained about but isn't actually the equivalent to DS and the like, that is more Ruin, Pop, ect: Perks that allow the game to suddenly last longer than they should. As has been pointed out, 90% of these perks are designed specifically to not work together because extending the difficulty of an objective self-synergizes, which is the entire problem with second chance perks.
NOED is more akin to say.. post-nerf BNP in that it is more niche and does something important: It keeps the game exciting and avoiding a 'lockout' scenario. DBD isn't fun if none of the survivors ever go down at a bad time and NOED forces some hook pressure. The Blue Turtleshell of DBD: Prevents one side from pulling way too far ahead.
It actually is a terrible perk, and nerfing it wouldn't do anything. Its main issue is that it sorta does its job very poorly because instead of creating a tense moment it actually kills all hook pressure you got because survivors just leave. This is why 'final boss' builds don't tend to do well except as a meme. It could do with a rework-buff hybrid to be more focused in what it does rather than forcing survivors out of the game, probably removing the exposed effect and making the killer more subtly terrifying in endgame so survivors will still feel like they can try to go for the endgame rescue it likely would force.
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That's what we have now.
I can give a few reasons why second chance perks exist:
What you mentioned- Solo would be miserable without these perks (at least most of the time) so the devs add this to not upset what is the majority of their players so like out of 80% survivors I'd guess 70% are Solo or play solo consistently and only swf sometimes. I am guilty of what I call DS syndrome:
when I play with DS I feel like it's the best perk in the game even though I play solo survivor 99% of the time; but when I don't have DS I feel just as good if not better than no DS.
Killers will often still play around DS even if you don't have it, same with BT. This is why I think it's stupid to say "Ds TaKeS uP a VaLuAbLe PeRk SlOt" same thing with BT and UB every single survivor can have 0 perks and these perks still have an effect on the gameplay,
honestly if they nerfed or even deleted every second chance perk in existence and no one told anyone who plays killer, it'd still effect gameplay.
Of course this is healthy changes to gameplay but theres a reason people say "welp guess I tunneled" after getting DS'd because nearly no situation in the game with a good killer getting DS'd is because of 59 second DS's and the killer literally having no choice than to pick up.
TL:DR: they give healthy effects without even existing in the match but are so broken and unfair when they're actually used to stun (99% of the time ofc If you get farmed and facecamped yeah then DS is serving a fair use)
Devs don't know what to do - It's clear at this point BHVR aren't the best at being unbiased, hardworking or attentive to the community. Right now I think the devs just want to damage control their reputation, they gutted moris: IMMEDIATE BACKLASH, New UI: IMMEDIATE BACKLASH, survivor anims: BACKLASH.
I think at this point they want to appeal to the good 80% of survivors and keep DS even at the expense of the 20% killers.
I think they want to keep on the downlow for now; they're too scared that everyone will hate it and leave it OR they understand they have nothing else to play and no competition so they are intentionally lazy.
While the latter is very cynical, Scott Jund, The Huntress God Himself, said this and he has much more experience than all of us (Well maybe not but its extremely likely)
I think right now DS is hated widely by most killers because it basically forces slugging and then you get UB or you get DS'd because you killed them too quick. That's legitimately a thing that happens btw, i can chainsaw someone across the map with billy 20 seconds after unhook zoom back with BBQ kill the person too quick due to poor plays and then get punished by 55+ second DS.
TL:DR: even though a majority of killers agree that DS is OP and unfun to play against BHVR is still happy to do nothing because its only 15% of players that are just the vocal minority.
They already have something in mind - The most likely scenario, they probably just don't have dedication to thoroughly play test these things. BHVR is known to not be the best at play testing and not let the people who want the change to play test either. They seem to forget they have a ptb and only use it for major updates.
Imagine if we could have 3 days with 3 different proposed changes to DS and at the end of the match everyone could rate this one and at the end on the 10th day there would be a survey asking what worked what didn't and which was the best.
I think if they did then this game could be headed to a really good state of health and I think both survivors and killers can unite over this idea and I hope I can hear your feed back to these theories and this suggestion but we can't give BHVR too much ######### they run a unique unlike any other game that we all more or less enjoy or even love and we're only here because of that
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