Please help me understand how gen rushing is different than tunneling.
I'm not looking to argue, I really don't see the difference and I'm open to any points you can make. Every argument I've ever seen against tunneling could be applied almost word for word to gen rushing.
- It isn't fun - (opinion) applies to both
- It isn't fair - not a good argument but can apply to both
- You get less points tunneling, you get more hits and downs going after more players - applies to both sides, survivors get more points adding in some chases and cleansing totems and what-not
Meanwhile, the arguments FOR gen rushing apply to killers as well.
- I need to get the objectives done and gen rushing helps me do that- yeah, killers need to do that, too
- Killers have gen defense perks, use them - survivors have anti-tunneling perks too
- I'm not breaking any rules, git gud killers! - yeah but players across the board get salty when told this, survivors VERY included.
So is this just an issue of everyone is gonna be unhappy about SOMETHING or is there really a counter-argument that can be made when I say that gen-rushing is the same as tunneling?
Full disclosure: I'm 130 hrs into the game and have a grand total of 3 games as survivor, the first three games I played. When I found how much faster queue times are as killer I tried killing and just fell in love. I've prestiged spirit once but have been leveling all my killers to get access to the perks. I don't tunnel on purpose, but if you get a survivor off hook right freaking next to me I'm gonna get the down and hook again.
Truly not looking to argue, genuinely curious about how survivors counter the points made. Thanks people, love the game!
The Professor
Comments
-
Difference is that "gen rushing" doesn't really exist, unless we're talking about something like Marths depip squad. If your playing killer and multiple gens are getting down really quickly, your just not putting enough pressure on the survivors. I main blight and use pop + corrupt + tinkerer with him and I havent had game where I was like "Damn I was completely powerless to stop the survivors and they actually gen rushed me."
11 -
It is not because they are both dealing with the objectives.
Tunneling = killing survivors = the killers objective
"gen rushing" = survivors doing generators = the survivors' objective
19 -
Well to be fair with that build and Blights mobility sure.
4 -
there is no difference. both is most effective, both is no fun for the other side, both get yelled out waaaay to early without it even being tunneling/gen rushing
3 -
Ok, that makes sense. Thank you. I do notice that I need to pull off the chase when I feel the survivor is toying with me. Perhaps I need to pull off the chase sooner.
1 -
See, I feel the same way, but tunneling is grouped with camping as toxic killer behavior and I just don't get that argument. Thanks!
0 -
For me both fall into the same bracket of "I'm failing at my objective so I blame the other side". I acknowledge that they exist as both, survivors can collectively ddecide to play in a way that ends the game under 5 min as can killer decide to hard tunnel someone out of the game under 3 min.
Both are optimal, legit strategies when used properly that make the other side feel miserable if they fail to match the opponents skill level.
Tunneling - Tunneled survivor is failing to outchase or outjuke the killer thus is unable to get away while also his teammates fail in assisting to save him or do gens fast enough so that killer can't tunnel him out of the game.
Gen rushing - Killer is failling to juggle survivors, not aplying enough pressure to delay the gens either through failing at chases or just due to bad power, map, etc RNG and mainly optimal gameplay from survivors.
7 -
Well yeah you are using the fastest Killer in the game with a build heavily based around gen defense, it makes sense you are well prepared againt gen rushers.
Try playing Huntress or Trapper against a good team.
1 -
Just apply pressure huh? You mean like the pressure Billy could apply before he was nerfed? Oop. You mean like the pressure you could apply with Nurse BEFORE the BUGS/NERF? Oop. You mean the pressure you can apply with Undying/Tinkerer/Ruin right now? Oop. You mean like the pressure Spirit can apply? Oop. You mean like the pressure Freddy can apply? Oop.
13 -
Don't forget that most of the killers lack mobility in the first place.
9 -
You don't have to tell me man. I have a good one for you.
Have you noticed, the most hated Killers are the ones that don't necessarily depend on the mistakes of survivors? Have you noticed the killers that force a different approach to the game are constantly on the nerf block? (Nurse, Spirit, Freddy)
Huntress add-on pass will be a complete nerf with a cool down to prevent full charge hatchets back to back. Calling it now.
3 -
To elaborate on Frosty a little bit too, it takes a really coordinated SWF to do a genrush the killer can genuinely do nothing about. Your average SWF- and especially your average game against solos- generally don't have the coordination needed to pull off that extreme level of genrush, and will do other objectives, so it just comes down to needing to understand how to make chases shorter as killer, and when to leave chases.
On the flipside, in my experience as killer, there's very few times where tunneling isn't deliberate. Sure, sometimes you'll come back to the hook and run into the guy that just got off with the unhooker nowhere to be seen, or a teammate will farm- but at least in my experience, most of the time someone gets tunneled because the killer made the conscious decision that the person they decided to tunnel isn't allowed to play anymore, and gets to leave with 6k points to go back to queue.
(I also just want to point out the fact that while losing early gens can be daunting for killer, making it seem like the gens were rushed early, most killers definitely get stronger as more gens are done because there's less places for the Survivors to do objectives, forcing them closer together for easy pressure.)
4 -
Good points, thank you for the post. I think it's interesting that you say most tunnels for you are due to a deliberate anti-survivor mentality (at least that's how I interpreted it). When I tunnel I think my thought process is more along the lines of, "Here is the easiest down and hook I can get right now." Their game experience doesn't factor into my thinking. Maybe it is an issue of semantics, but intent seems to be different. Thanks again!
0 -
You can still apply really good pressure with Billy, just not as good as before, and I know this because he's my other main, right next to deathslinger, huntress, oni, and blight. You can still apply pressure with Nurse, just not as much as before, I also know this because I play her a decent amount although the bugs (which aren't as common as you think) do make her frustrating to play as. Rundying + Tinkerer will still be a good combo, even with undyings nerf. Also not sure what your trying to get at with Spirit and Freddy...Spirit hasn't been nerfed super hard yet and neither has Freddy so...you can still apply a ton of pressure with them.
0 -
Its both the same, it both sucks, it both should have more counters.
But because we have many "mains" that only play one role, its unfair for them.
Killer mains will cry about Gens being fast and other things
survivor mains cry about tunneling.
Why do people cry over games? because they have had an unfun experience.
Problem is that people dont see the other side.
If you see the other side thats the conclusion:
This game is not balanced. on both sides.
And judging by the past it wont be ever
0 -
So by gen rushing I assume you mean all survivors carrying toolboxes with BNPs and such and finishing gens in seconds? Or some such variant.
To me I don’t think there is truly a difference between gen rushing and tunneling. I think gen rushing is harder to accomplish because it takes 4 accomplices but if it happens you could also say that is more egregious than tunneling. So I do think they’re equally as bad.
Also just to be clear, by tunneling I mean the killer ignoring all objectives and other survivors, focusing only on one survivor to get them out of the game. I don’t really consider unsafe unhooks into a tunnel tunneling. Even though I think the killer could show some grace in those situations by chasing the teammate who unhooked, I don’t think the killer is obligated to do so.
I also don’t consider tunneling a toxic survivor tunneling. I guess strictly speaking you are tunneling someone, but the point of discouraging tunneling is to ensure everyone has fun. I think someone who is being purposely toxic can safely be exempt from that.
I think gen rushing is hard to define. How fast or slow should gen speeds go? My experience so far playing mostly solo survivor and some killer is that default gen speeds are fine. Toolboxes mostly seem fine except for maybe the commodius toolbox and any better toolboxes than that. That thing can churn out gen progression fast!
Also I’ve been running Prove Thyself, and this isn’t really a meta perk but it is so strong that my escape rate after running it in soloq went from like 20-25% to 60-75% for awhile, and then stabilised around 50-60% escape rate, which is much higher than before I ran it. So just one guy in soloq running Prove Thyself can affect the game so much. I think there are other variable at play (I suspect killers go easier when they see a full team of solos and don’t expect gens to pop so fast) but I still think it says something about how gen speeds can be abused by survivors if they wanted to. I definitely think survivors have the power to bully the killer if they wanted to but mostly don’t because it takes a coordinated effort, you might have to run team based perks and sacrifice chase and second chance perks or just don’t think it’s fun to sit on gens. (Oh and of course some players are just decent folk and don’t want to ruin other people’s fun, but we’re not here to talk about that. We’re here to talk about how potentially certain things in the game can be abused.)
So tl;dr, I don’t think gen rushing is different from tunneling. Default gen speeds are fine imo but gen speeds can be abused through multiple survivors carrying toolboxes, toolbox add ons and even Prove Thyself seems kinda powerful. And everyone who does the above to give someone else a bad time gets a stern look and finger wag from me. Tsk tsk.
1 -
And yet any form off pressure from perks, combos or killers that can apply more pressure and allow for more chasing survivors want nerfed, Like someone said before PGtW, nurse, Freddy, ruin+undying stuff that helps apply pressure are getting changed/nerfed, instead of survivors learning how to get better at the game and work around these things its just more easy to nerf/change them to make them more easy for survivors to deal with.
0 -
I've played both against a good team, and I've also won with both of them. With Huntress I came across an experienced team while using corrupt + pop and even though the match was tough i managed to get some really good shots in on them and even managed to snipe twice that match (Map was also coal tower, maybe that helped me a bit since its smaller). With Trapper I came across another good SWF team but this time I was on Dead Dawg with Rundying + Corrupt + STBFL and I'll admit, the only reason why I won that match was because towards the end when there was only 1 gen left one of them messed up and tried to get an unhook in my face which failed which gave me the snowball I needed to win.
0 -
In my experience you can apply pressure by being a killer that makes a lot of noise
0 -
No? Not all survivors want good killers nerfed. Look at Blight, every single survivor I've seen has stated that he's a very fun balanced killer to play against. Freddy has way to much in his base kit, he has teleportation, good anti loop, natural slowdown (dream world) and anti BT. I dont want him to get a flat out nerf but its clear that if you aren't a killer main that he needs changes. Rundying, especially on good killers like Blight and Nurse can make it so that solo survivors get destroyed easily. Pop is still really good, not sure why people treat it like garbage, I still find tons of value with it and also still have plenty of time to kick a gen with it. Also on the topic of the nurse change, unless your an entitled killer main it was painfully obvious she needed a nerfz omega blink and 5 blink nurse completely broke the game.
0 -
I hate it when I see people use the word gen-rushing because they don't actually know the definition of the word. Survivors being efficient on gens isn't gen-rushing, but the game being over by way of gen completion before the 5-minute mark is gen-rushing. 3 gens popping at one time isn't gen-rushing; all of the gens being done 7 minutes into the game isn't gen-rushing. Now, 4 gens being done before 3 minutes have passed is gen-rushing.
0 -
And yet a lot off Freddy problems can be solved by waking up which a lot off survivors don't do i had a match the other day and before i got the person off the hook i woke up so i made sure BT was active when going for the save, Even when you heal people instead of staying there for a few more seconds to let the other person wake you up they run off staying in the dream world take those few seconds and wake up and most off Freddy powers are useless if your awake. You mean like the DS+UB combo on good survivors it can be a real pain to deal with just like ruindying with a good team it might not last long at all other times it will last the whole match.
The problem with pop is the reason they changed it and left DS they way it is "60 seconds allow killers to do a lot off things and still have it active" but DS still stands at 60 seconds and survivors can do a lot in that time, i was using examples from someone that left a msg before me but if you take away killers and just look at perks that have got changed that helped apply pressure there was ruin, PgtW and now ruin+undying combo each one off them has had a change to make it more easy on survivors.
Look at the ruin nerf and the reason behind it if i remember it was because new survivors found it to hard and the amount off skill checks was random, so instead of new survivors getting better they changed it but killers are the ones that are meant to get better and learn how to apply more pressure?
0 -
The point Survivors try their best to complete a Gen, rather than 50% on 2 Gen, or 25% on 4 Gen. Because the last 2 cases, Gen can be regressed to 0. While complete a Gen is permanent.
This is exactly the same as Killer tunnel a survivor. 3 hook kill a Survivor, is MUCH better than 3 hooks on 3 survivors.
Gen rush is equal to tunneling.
1 -
The thing about Freddy is that the counterplay is thoroughly giving a disadvantage without any real balance.
Waking up (if freddy has no addons) keeps you stationary and/or gives away your position.
As for the topic:
The slight difference is that as scummy as tunneling is, it does have counters and leaves a bit of control in the survivors' hands. Genrushing doesn't. If one or two gens pop before the killer is anywhere near the survivors that game's pretty much done for most.
0 -
The problem with your argument is that it implies that you have a similar level of experience and both words are being used in their original intention. In which case you are absolutely right, "genrushing" is an excuse for poor play by the killer.
If you just started playing the game, at most have maybe a few dozen rounds under your belt, and likely you're three teachables unmaxed are your best perks on a killer you are still trying to figure out you're argument loses most of it's merit.
The reason why is because the most common argument opposed to 'tunneling" is that it isn't fun to be tunneled. It's also not fun to lose a game because you barely know what you are doing and the four people act like you are some kind of scum bag for losing. The reality is that even at rank 20-15 you will still have purple/red ranks say some messed up ######### after stomping someone with literal years less experience than them.
This is then exacerbated by the fact that "tunneling" is predominantly used as an excuse for poor play on the survivors behalf in higher ranks. The killer is not obligated to let a survivor go because they behaved predictably or stupidly. If you get unsafe unhooked and your choice is to run right back to the gen you were picked off from, or worse, selfcare under the damn hook or body block for the unhooker when you don't have bt that's not the killers bad, yet commonly it will be called the killers bad even if your Frosty self would never do that, which I am honestly assuming you wouldn't.
When you are dealing with a scenario where almost any response from the other team is an accusation of unfair play instead recognizing they lost due to poor decisions you just stop caring. Which is why I'd argue that from it's most frequent usages tunneling is the same as genrushing, as they are both made up words used by players to rationalize being an agro jerk post game.
0 -
It could of just be how I worded it, based on my own experiences in the role of both Killer and Survivor- I've faced a lot of Killers that will tunnel a Survivor out of the game purely because they do something they don't like (Like playing stealthy, playing Claudette, having spawned on Ruin/Devour, etc.).
I also usually don't count someone as having tunneled if they get a hook imbetween the person getting downed and such- because at that point it's a matter of both luck and your teammates being willing to pull aggro- so I guess that's why I tend to see real tunneling as much more of an 'anti-survivor' deal. In my experience as Killer, if I tunnel it's because I don't want to deal with that Survivor anymore or because their teammates screwed them. (AKA: Unhooking in my face, disappearing after the unhook, not pulling aggro, etc.)
I should also note that I don't really count what you're describing in your reply as tunneling. To me, that's just playing the game. As Killer, getting through weaker chases is how you win. If the person just gets unlucky and you keep running into them and downing them when you give them good time to recover is a lot different then dropping everything you're doing to return to hook and focusing on nothing but the person you just unhooked. (At least, that's kinda how I interpreted it.)
0 -
Tunnelling completely ruins the game for that survivor and they basically can’t play the game.
Even if survivors ‘gen rush’, the killer can still play the game.
Theres the difference.
0 -
Oh the killer can still play the game, when survivor completed all gens and escaped? Please tell me more!
8 -
Gens before friends
Gens before mends
1 -
If you see the 5 gens as the "lives" of the killer and that once all 5 are completed, he is on "death hook", because his match is about to end. Then there is absolutely no difference between tunneling and gen rushing.
5 -
I agree that there can be toxic tunneling and strategic play where the same survivor can get hooked in quick succession. It seems the survivors in post chat don't see much of a difference though. I appreciate the response. Thanks for the back and forth!
1 -
DBD is asymmetric for a reason. There really is no survivor analogue to camping.
Genrushing is literally just doing objectives. Genrushing is the equivalent of killers getting survivors down often. Camping would be like running the old Haddonfield infinite, although that's a poor analogy.
0 -
Yeah cos they can gen rush and open the gates before the killer can even catch someone? Okay you’re either playing a different game or comepletely terrible at this one
0 -
With that logic tunneling doesn't excist either outside of an Marth skilled nurse.
If you play the best survivor perks and you and your team play well you also can't be tunneled and say Damn i was powerless to stop it
So still no difference
1 -
Tell that to gen rush squads with 4 full power toolboxes when your playing a slow/low tier killer.
You may be able to stop it with a more powerful killer yes but NOT WITH MOST OF THE KILLER CAST!
Ps. By your own logic tunneling doesn't exist either.
0 -
Tunneling and gen rushing are only a problem when it's based off the experience of the players.
If a killer tunnels a less experienced survivor they can win because of it but if they do it to a more experienced survivor who's really good in chase then they can end up with either 1 or no kills.
Same with gen rushing if they do it to a less experienced killer then they have the chance to be able to get all 4 survivors to escape. However if they try it with more experienced killer who has all the perks unlocked to slow it and also prioritises getting people off gens and not chasing the survivors who are good in chase until the weaker ones are picked off then it's a lot less likely to work.
1 -
Genrushing still lets the killer to play. Tunneling prevents a survivor from playing at all. Basically just on hook all game.
You can argue that genrushing isn't fun for the killer. Sure. But at least the killer can still play the game normally. A survivor who spends 95% of the game on the hook basically didn't get to play at all.
1 -
Again. Camping and Tunneling = survivor possibly not playing at all.
Genrushing = Killer still get to find, chase and possibly kill survivors.
0 -
I mean hardcore tunnelling even when it is costing you the win is just toxic but if it works out then go for it
Gen rushing is pretty fool proof besides noed and bloodwarden so you might as well do it
0 -
So the killer catches you and it´s game over? You must be one of those survivors that instantly suicide on the first hook.
Even when the others did 3 gens before you were found.
1 -
Whats the difference of "playing" a gen rush match, where all gens are finished in 2+ minutes and being face camped where you die after 2 minutes?
2 -
What do you mean by "genrushing"? Because if you mean all survs carrying BNP in strong toolboxes and built to last and all that bullshit, sure. But survivors being efficient is not genrushing. Take, for example, you're chasing one guy and the other three are on gens. Suppose three gens pop right after you hook him. Is that genrushing? If the chase took the 80 seconds that those gens take to complete, then it's not. You just weren't putting pressure on those survivors. Don't get me wrong, it can be very difficult to put pressure on many survs at the same time, specially with some of the weaker killers. But that's a matter of killers being weak, not of survivors genrushing.
My point here is: if, as a survivor, you have an entire build based on genrushing + toolbox with BNP + don't heal your hooked teammates, barely take the time to unhook them and then return to gens, then yes, I believe that is called genrushing and it is equal to tunneling. Going out of your way to get the advantage as quickly as possible, either by erasing one dude from the game, or by getting gens done so fast that the killer has barely the time to maybe hook one guy or two. On purpose.
However, let's imagine a different case. Imagine the 4 survs are running DS + UB + DH + BT (to mention a pretty standard build that we actually see often). No intention of slamming gens as fast as the previous group I mentioned. Some medkits, a flashlight, maybe one toolbox. You are chasing one dude. What are the rest supposed to do? Wander around the map looking at textures? Absolutely not. They will be on gens. And this is not equal to tunneling, in my opinion. It's survivors doing the one thing they have to do. Equal to this would be the killer getting downs and hooks quickly. Not specifically tunneling one guy out of the match. Just doing the objective efficiently, without going out of your way to take advantage of the strategy that will get the match finished the fastest way possible.
This is what I believe at least.
0 -
The difference is that the wrong people are winning, duh.
0 -
This is an interesting debate. I want to say it's different, but, the more I think about it, the harder it is to come up with a reason why.
0 -
If the killer is genrushed, his game ends quite early. He 's in a hurry, probably doesn't have that much fun but still can hook survivors and maybe kill some of them. Still gets some points, not that much however. Bad game for the killer.
If a survivor is tunneled, his game ends EXTREMELY early. He gets hooked right after unhooking and really can't do much in the game. His points are next to nothing. Simply horrible game for the survivor.
If you view them as strategies, there's no difference. But the real difference is that survivors are actual players that care about if they are removed from the game as soon as possible. Gens don't care.
0 -
Seriously. The survivors will get 2-3 gens done within 2 minutes and then be like “stupid tunneling killer” and I gotta roll my eyes.
Gen times are insane if the survivors are not babies. Nerf ruin undying though.
I really do think the best option is to just run 1 shot killers and kill people on first hook in those types of games because there is no way you are getting 12 hooks in 4-5 minutes with how safe the maps are unless the survivors are terrible.
5 -
Right now, survivor queues are longer than the matches they play. Once the patch drops, this will get even worse.
Yet survivor mains don't see that it's in their benefit when killers are strong and a enjoyable experience.
1 -
"Gen Rush" is something only a killer who is bad at applying map pressure would say. Tell about more of your expansive experience in the game with 130 hours, please.
You're either a successful troll or just an idiot.
0 -
Before your first hook, 2-3 gens are ussually done. Especially depending on the map. You have the be stupid to not know if you get chased, then killer leaves you to chase another survivor who was working on a gen, that you just take over that survivor's gen and do it instead.
Alot of killers suffer from early game gen rush, but then the last 2 take more time cause of 3 gens strat. A slug and a tunnel will make your game last longer aswell. Its how the game is designed.
0 -
The only difference is DS.
0
