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The DS changes have arrived.
Well, at least people can't complain that the devs dont listen.
For my two cents, I think this change was unnecessary.
As many have said, DS was not intended, ever, to be an anti-tunnel perk. It is a watered down second chance perk that just happens to coincide with tunneling for one of its triggers. Even still, this will be a poorly-designed anti-tunnel perk; killers can still slug, and tunneling doesn't mean getting you right after the hook. It's just not tailored to being an anti-tunnel perk, as it still tries to hold onto the vestiges of its old self.
My suggestion is to keep the old DS as it was, but maybe reduce the stun duration. It should have remained a second chance perk.
For anti-tunnel capabilities, there should be an entirely new perk that is specifically based on tunneling. For one part, DS' activation requirements are too broad; you can get hit with a DS while not tunneling, and you can tunnel a DS and still get away with it by slugging. A good anti-tunnel perk would proc more than once, and determine its activation by how much you are getting chased, in proportion to other survivors. A 5 second stun is hit-or-miss, in terms of pressuring the killer, and now that it's out of the way, you can tunnel the ever-loving hell out of them. Anti-tunnel perks should consistently punish and hinder a killer for focusing on you, and activate when you are specifically being tunneled, not when you just happen to be stumbled upon by the killer since there's nobody else to go after. That's a second chance perk, not anti-tunnel.
Another two cents is to make you the obsession, if you are indeed getting tunneled. The only good killer perks that involve obsessions (STBFL, Dark Devotion maybe) encourage you to ignore the obsession, or hit them once and walk away; adding that to a hefty payload is a nice parting shot for tunnelers.
Comments
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"As many have said, DS was not intended, ever, to be an anti-tunnel perk."
Those people are wrong, DS was intended to be anti-tunnel and anti-farm from the beginning.
Quote from the devs about DS in its redesign/rework/w.e.
"players were able to use DS a long time after being unhooked, where it no longer serves the purpose to protect you from being tunneled/ farmed"
Source: https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/48381/design-decisive-strike
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Nice to see a step in the right direction
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You can still do DS+UB. So it's not like the combo is gone it still will be the strongest combo in the game. Just do that if you worry about slugging. With old DS+UB it was disgusting with the new DS it's cool now.
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But Devs have also stated that DS is not an Anti-Tunnel Perk.
@Topic: Reducing the Stun-Duration would render DS useless. When it was 3 seconds, you were not able to get away at all, since roughly half of that time (around 1,5 seconds, I think 1,3 was it to be precise) was used for the animation, which allows the Survivor to get away 6 meters.
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I like this change since if you call it a nerf you are indirectly admitting that you can use the perk to have a get out of jail free card for 60s while still progressing the game
Side tangent:
The just slug them argument is flawed due to the fact that the only reason you would chase somone with ds is either you are genuinly tunneling or you have no one else to chase since the unhooker hid
The whole point of slugging is that you leave someone on the ground since you have the chance to imediatly chase someone else but as stated earlier you only chase someone with ds if you have no other reasonable option so slugging is a very inefficient solution since you dont deal with the d-strike you just band aid the damage done by in the best case wasting about 20s of somone elses time when they run over to pick them up at worst they just unbreakable up and go do a gen with ds still active
And ignoring them means losing most of the progress on a gen and i dont think i need to explain why that is bad
Side tangent over-
But back to the point the perk still prevents tunneling with this change all the change does is make sure that the perk is exclusivly for anti tunneling instead of the current 60s of not getting hooked the problem with the current ds is that during that time you can do whatever you want such as do gens for around 60% of their progress or save somone with 0 risk or plently of decisions that would be punished if you didnt have ds active
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Does it really matter what the intended use of the perk is if the problem is that big? Why was old ruin changed despite of it doing it's job as an anti-gen perk, and undying is about to be changed despite it fulfilling it's job as a hex protection perk.
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give me a source and quote? If you mean that one penits post, people keep twisting that and he didn't say its not anti-tunnel.
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And now to counter that nerf to DS, the survivor babies are going to come by and ask for every single good killer perk to get nerfed
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I'm glad but also going to dread the survivors that are hell bent on getting a DS that they'll be dead weight until it's over with.
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Here. Dont see how anything can be twisted there.
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Neither do I but people still do it. Where does he say its not to stop tunneling? He doesn't. He says "purely" which in this context means "only". He's right, its also used to stop farming. As far as we know that's it, tunneling and farming. As far as I know thats all the devs have said on the matter.
So "purely" tunneling? No. Its also for farming protection.
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Perhaps you weren't around in the original DS days. You could escape the killer's grasp once at any time you wanted. Its purpose may have changed, but its adaptation was ill-thought.
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Getting hit with a DS means that they can find another loop to burn time at. It can be devastating, in the right hands.
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I'd agree on the stun duration; yet it still feels like 5 seconds is a bit lengthy and 3 seconds is too short.
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Bear witness to the power of long survivor queues to bring about long needed changes. It's about time. Going byt he tooltip you might still be able to jump into a closet and use it, but if you wanna waste your time, I'm sure the killer is gonna be fine with that. Though it isn't a bad idea if somebody literally unhooks you in the killer's face and you can make it to one. devs can't fix your greedy or naive teammates they have to nerf themselves. Probablyw hy they still will let you do that, since you're only wasting your own time if done tot roll and to help on unsafe unhooks which makes sense.
how's the queue lengths tonight? Is it worth downloading this again yet?
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No, I was around. I never said it was implemented well, just the intention was there. Since that was the subject of discussion brought up. If it was implemented well from the beginning it wouldn't need as many changes as its seen.
At least they're on a better track right now.
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My two cents on the matter is:
- DS/UB will be more prevalent than they were before since the only way to use DS now is to agitate the killer to get DS'ed or to slug.
- With the new change DS went from having 3 requirements to 3 requirements + list of things you cant do.
- Killer can still cheat you out of the DS if you are under the hook, because there is not enough time for the proc to appear.
- The only positive thing about the change is that now you can turn off DS if you want to keep it for later.
- Realistically the new DS should be base for all survivors... They would have to modify what perk combinations would be allowed together.
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Well, I wish killers could find another strategy besides camping and tunneling because I'd rather run, but those perks are useless when camped or tunneled.
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I only have one question and that's about the deactivation through healing. Does that mean if someone tries to start healing you DS would deactivate? So if you get tapped then DS would deactivate? If that's the case that sounds like it needs to be tweaked so the healing interaction needs to be completed.
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I think it deactivates when you start healing someone else and not the other way round. Wouldn't make sense otherwise.
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My point was that DS' original concept was to be a second chance perk, but its activation requirements made it give off the appearance of an anti-tunnel perk. It's too broad and too situational to be an effective anti-tunnel perk, so it should just be nerfed as a second chance perk, while an actual, dedicated, conceptually anti-tunnel perk is added.
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Stun duration can't be reduced because of Nurse.
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Should have just given it an infinite timer when in chase, and a reduced timer outside of chase. Now, if someone begins healing with We'll Make It and the killer comes back before the survs finish, that person can just get downed and hooked again.
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I didn't actually think about the basement part, but that is actually really dumb. What, are you supposed to just leave your teammate to die?
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Noob killers like those who drop chase to came back to hook loving this !
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That's exactly what I think is going to happen once the change kicks in.
People will be so protective of their DS that they'll just do nothing for 60 seconds until it runs out because they must use it.
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Next time check before you respond as I already addressed that quote.
I'm not twisting anything, I'm just saying they never said it was NOT anti-tunnel, they actually said the opposite since "not purely" means "yes but it includes another things(s)" especially combined with the fact they literally stated in their design that its supposed to be anti-tunnel and anti-farm.
I'm not trying to make it anti-farm, it already is. If your teammates far you off hook, you had DS to help if the killer went for you, hence anti-farm. A slug is still better than a hook and potentially getting killed out the game because a teammate farmed you.
If anyone the one trying to force things into their argument is you. I'm just saying this is what they said, and as far as we know this is all they want it to be/intend it to be since they haven't said anything otherwise as far as I know or anyone has brought up besides twisting the same quote. "Not purely" does not mean "not at all" and it never did. People just said "look he said its not only for tunneling, that means we can use this as an excuse to say its for anything". As far as its been stated, the devs intend the perk to be anti-tunnel and anti-farm.
If you personally feel/want it to be for something else that's a different conversation.
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And thank #########.
This will slow down gen times massively and give Killers a chance to BREATHE and enjoy some meme builds for once without having to sweat their ass off.
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I'm not sure about its original OG version but it has been intended to be anti-tunnel since before its rework since that's why they added a timer. Since it did way more than just protect tunneling/farming. As they stated: "players were able to use DS a long time after being unhooked, where it no longer serves the purpose to protect you from being tunneled/ farmed".
That means the intention for it to be anti-tunnel was there fore the timer was added. Exactly when is up for debate and kinda not important since the perk has been anti-tunnel intended for so long now even if not from the beginning. Its not the "appearance" of anti-tunnel, it is anti-tunnel. If anything its implementation gave it the appearance that it was intended for way more than it was, like anti-momentum. It appears they're trying to rectify that with these future changes.
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Just let the guy who unhooked you unhook the other one, now you both have DS. The unhooking clause is to stop survivors from just running into your face for the unhook because "tee hee, I have DS so either way I get the save" or having both survivors have DS up so now no matter who you go after you lose. That needs to stay. Also in that example that would mean there 3 survivors in the basement and 2 of them got hooked beforehand. Guess going after 50-75% of the team is tunneling now?
The healing one I don't feel strongly about, but if you feel safe enough and have the time to heal you're most likely not being tunneled or you made a bad play.
Post edited by MrPenguin on1 -
"Purely to stop tunneling", meaning it does that among other things. Peanits nor the devs never said one of DS's uses isn't supposed to help againt tunneling but that it's not the only function it has.
Community keept insisting it's only anti-tunneling perk which it never was and even after the nerfs still won't be as there are other uses it has beyond stopping tunneling which is fine as long as they aren't too easily abused.
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To be fair, detractors aren't wrong. The citation of this quote is meant to refute the idea that it is meant to function as an anti-tunnel perk. Of course it's not purely anti-tunnel; no perk is singular in purpose, but they have a focus that they wish to address. Playing around with "purely" is a matter of semantics and pedantry.
When said focus shifts by descent with modification, you get an ugly mess of a perk that has no direction in life. DS, at its core, is a second chance. The devs tried to combine it with anti-tunnel capabilities, but people complained that it's too broad and should be nerfed to fit an anti-tunnel capacity only. Its focus is not to discourage tunneling, hence why it activates only once.
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No perk is going to be purely dedicated to a singular purpose; power struggle is meant to be a rudimentary second chance, but can be transformed into an anti-slugging perk. Breakdown is meant to prevent farming, but hooks just don't spawn that far apart. Perks have an idea, or a focus, in mind when they are created, which is as flexible as the community pleases.
The idea behind DS was a second chance, hence why it procs only once. If anything, killers are going to tunnel survivors who DS them even more, now that they don't have to worry about DS. Of course, the devs tried to transform it into an anti-tunnel perk, but made the mistake of keeping parts of its old self. DS still revolves around a second chance, and trying to push it into the realm of anti-tunnel perks is like shoving a square into a triangle.
If they want to transform it into an anti-tunnel perk, they need to pull. tinkerer-style makeover. A complete overhaul of functionality.
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Sad thing is no matter what the devs do people are still going to complain and whine. Bitchiest community I’ve ever seen.
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And people say that Chernobyl is the most toxic community on earth.
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If that was the original idea, the idea changed 2 years ago into anti-tunnel which is what the perk is supposed to be now and that 2 year old ideal is no longer relevant since it was so long ago.
If your argument is that you think it needs a rework to better fit the function then that's a different conversation than what the perk is supposed to be for right now and what is intended by the people working on the game. If that's the point you want to move forward with then go with that and thats fine (as you did in part of the op), but saying its not intended to be anti-tunnel is just incorrect in its current form and the form it was in when that quote was made and since its redesign. As far as we know and have been told at least.
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Seems fair to me. If the Killer managed to hook multiple people in the basement, they shouldn't all be able to get out for free. That's what Borrowed Time is for.
You gotta choose if you want to save your teammate or save yourself. Unhook your teammate or save DS. Being able to do both is overkill and why it's being changed.
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I believe the OP was talking about the DS we have currently.
Although designed as anti-tunnel, Peanits had said not long ago that the team never labelled it as an anti-tunnelling perk but rather the community came up with it.
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The idea shifted, but it did so in a messy and disorderly transition. DS is an awful, awful anti-tunnel perk, because:
1) It just doesn't discourage tunneling enough; if anything, getting hit with a DS is now free license to tunnel since you don't have to worry about it anymore.
2) It's too broad. Just because you got off the hook doesn't mean you're getting tunneled.
Just as the devs took the opportunity those years ago to take it in a new direction, they ought to change course on this as well.
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Yes we are talking about current DS, OP is bringing up the potential design philosophy behind DS over 2 years ago when it was first made. Then we got the redesign where they said its intended to counter tunneling and farming. Then Peanits made that statement.
The devs labeled it as anti-tunnel and anti-farm in their redesign of DS before Peanits made that quote, so that doesn't exactly line up.
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Uh, DS released in 2016, it was redesigned 2 years ago yes.
Maybe it was a miscommunication between the developer team as both our sources are legitimate.
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Yes, and my contention is that the redesign was not done in the most optimal way. If they want to make DS an anti-tunnel perk, that's great, but don't try to keep old vestiges when they are only an impediment.
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I can see where you're coming from with those arguments and wouldn't be opposed to a rework of the perk entirely.
DS is/was extremely powerful as its much more than just a stun. Its a stun + free health state + chase reset + do what you want free card (usually). Hence why it's run so much and It's been a problem since it's creation and it would probably be a good move to completely scrap the idea and remake it into something else entirely (like a much more focused anti-tunnel perk).
In the meantime, this version is at least better, but again a rework isn't a bad idea either. People aren't mad about DS because "oh now I can't tunnel" its more of "Oh I got punished hard for trying to stop the survivors and this is basically a free card for them to do what they want" and could lose people games. So yeah I could see making it more of a tunneling deterrent but it'd need to be a whole new thing because its current mechanics would be too strong to really use without it being abused.
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Yeah and that Peanits quote was made in 2020. DS release => DS redesign, stated as anti-tunnel => Quote
Like I said, the original idea from over 2 years ago and that quote was being used as a way to argue the point "DS was not intended, ever, to be an anti-tunnel perk." Which is not correct as in the redesign they stated it "serves the purpose to protect you from being tunneled/ farmed" and then Peanits said his quote, which its not "purely" anti-tunnel. Which is correct as it was stated to have at least one other use, but that's all they have said as far as I have seen. But it was being argued that somehow that means it was not meant to counter tunneling. "Not purely" turned into "not at all".
I'm just saying that's not correct, its been intended to counter tunneling for 2 years now and they didn't say otherwise. If the argument is that it should be reworked that's fine, but don't say it was never intended to be anti-tunnel and twist a quote around.
But it seems like we're on a better track now with that being the focus (reworking it).
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Time to equip the flashlight and do something more skill based with your ds invincibility. Rejoice.
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Everyone views tunneling differently. What is tunneling to you might not be to someone else. Can't make it universal as there isn't universal agreement on the extent of when tunneling starts and ends or when it warranted and when not.
Devs made the perk work like this based on our feedback so it's the closest to what community wants.
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The basement is stupid, you'll have to leave people behind. It's hard enough trying to get someone to come down there when the killers are camping
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So basically, either proactively try to get yourself hooked or proactively dont do ######### for the next 60 seconds......my god how this game digress from being a survivor.
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I can agree with DS being incredibly powerful in terms of its payload. However, the modifications keep going to the activation requirements instead of its effects; that's what I don't like.
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