The hypocrisy in the "Why do Survivors get more hook info in the new UI than killers?" statement
Survivors have been given a separated hook widget to let them know when to take hits to prevent someone on death hook going down or to prevent them wasting time running to unhook if someone's on death hook.
But killers are being denied the same information with the The dev's excuse of "the concern we have is this would encourage tunneling a bit too much" which is completely illogical considering if a killer is going to tunnel they'll still do exactly what they do now and go back to the hook as soon as the survivor is unhooked and only chase them with no need for the counter.
in that same conversation they state they don't see tunneling as an issue, they see it as a valid tactic.
this really begs the question why should a killer have to remember each survivors hook state but the survivors be given that information freely?
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I found it funny too. I wanted that information literally to help me stop eating decisive strikes because people have the same cosmetics on.
I literally wanted it so I would stop accidentally "Tunneling" someone.
It's fine, the DS nerf will help with that so I mean, having it would still be nice but it won't be a big issue for me anymore after that.
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Its really not hard to remember unless you willingly play against clones.
I have little trouble remembering who I hooked and its rare I don't play stoned.
Conversely it can be difficult to remember who has been hooked for survivor because you need to connect names to characters.
I really don't think it's a big deal.
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Not everyone has memory that works the same way. I have a really hard time with that myself. My short term is bloody awful.
I've had people ask me why I tunnelled them to death and the honest answer is I literally just did not know.
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I see the lack of detailed info as an encouragement for tunneling since losing track of the survivor creates the uncertainty of which hook they're on (of course killers try to mentally track this). Just seems like unnecessary protection of teams running a single outfit to confuse killers.
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It's not that hard to keep track of Survivor hook states. Take it from someone who keeps track of Survivor infection timers as Plague.
Idk you just get used to these things micro managing everything as a killer. It's no big deal.
They're making changes to make survivor solo queue a little less awful and I'm happy for that. Making this info available to killer feels like it would just undo some of that and encourage tunneling.
Yes tunneling is a "valid" tactic along with camping but BHVR doesn't encourage it nor should they.
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My memory is pretty ######### tho.
I just pay attention to clothes colour and and that's who you are now. Pink shirt. Green onsie. Starbucks employee. Dwight.
Yes, Dwight is now a colour. He is a special boy that way.
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yea, it'd be useful in avoiding decisive strikes against survivors using the same skins, not wasting pig traps on people on death hook etc.
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The whole premise is a “damned if you do, damned if you don’t” situation. Allowing Killers to see the hook counter may allow certain players to tunnel better, but not allowing Killers to see it may cause accidental tunnelling. A choice had to be made, and they did whilst giving valid reason.
Now BHVR do say that tunnelling is a valid tactic, but they don’t want it used to create toxic situations. They’re fine if you use it during EGC to secure a kill, they’re not fine with a Killer specifically targeting one Survivor to ruin their day. They have the left the situation up to the Killer to keep count and decide if they want to tunnel or not.
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swf already had this information, all this does is bring solo more up to speed. solo already had some available if they paid attention enough anyways. you just have to think less about it with that it sounds like. Hopefully the killer gets some neat trackers too, since they have tot hink about so much and keep track of survivor perks even lol. I used to use RTSS overlay displaying the system time to track ds lol. onc onsole I suppose hitting the browser/xmb could do the same thing but that takes time away from you doing that on there. It's quicker doing it on ps5 with a quick tap and a cpu that can handle it qithout lags but on ps4 pro I had to hold the ps button in to get the sidebar up and see spotify or the time or to close games. That reminds me it's time to check out nioh remastered.
A killer should be aware of who's onw hat hook btw, they put em there. You only have 4 people, and only need to remember 2 previous hooks for each. I could have done that in preschool. The steam users using the same alias with the same costumes, trinkets, and maybe items like al toolboxes would still have been a problem anyways widgey or not. In those situations look at the injured status and which names they're under to keep track between them.
Post edited by SocialDistomancy on1 -
You should be tracking hook stages already as killer. This change should mean nothing if you do, regardless of any supposed hypocrisy. Whichever counter the Devs opted for, I guarantee you they would've received backlash. Just take the minor improvement and move on.
For survivors it's a little different, because sometimes it's hard to tell if someone went second stage when a rescue is borderline, while as killer you get an Entity Summoned score event. So, it's a much more understandable QoL.
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I just hope survivors actually use this information. Too many times survivors sit at a safe distance to shake their fist at the killer instead of actually doing something.
Bodyblocks + taking aggro makes it really hard to tunnel someone. Hell i would bodyblock while injured if I haven't been hooked yet and someone on deathhook is getting tunneled
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Not gonna happen. I mean, just look at the forums, at least once per week you have a Thread "I have Deliverance and cannot use it as the last Survivor", which means those are players who use Deliverance and still let their team die despite taking the aggro for their first(!) Hook.
And when I see bodyblocks ingame, those happen if the Killer picks someone up like 3 meters from the next Hook.
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The hook counter per Survivor is - maybe - a good addition for soloq (you know, the game mode that needs some love the most). If it weren´t for the fact that most people pay next to no attention in their matches, I´d say solo players could use this information to determine who goes for the safe, for example. You´re on death hook, injured, and you have 2 mates that have been hooked 0-1 times, both healthy. They need to go for the save. But well, that may be a bit high of an expextation to have from the average teammates, but maybe it will help.
The Killer hook counter simply should not exist. It gives me no information whatsoever since I always know who has been hooked how many times, so all it does is take up valuable FOV space.
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I got a memory of goldfish. I can literally forget who I hooked when I see both survivors running away from the hook.
An indicator would be good for people like me. It doesn’t have to be a big UI. Just 3 dots under the characters will be fine
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As someone who has neither a long or short term memory (can't tell you what i eat monday or what i did last summer) i have trouble remembering even if a survivor has Dead Hard or not, so this Hook counter i was really waiting for it to be on both sides :(
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Question: How exactly is it meant to 'prevent accidental tunneling'?
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This answer exactly ^^
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Because survivors bring more money to the game. That's always the correct answer sir.
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honestly, keeping it hidden from killers kind of implies that they think i wouldnt be able to just remember who is on deathhook and who isnt.
it would LITERALL be nothing more but a neat little QoL improvement and a bit of a helping hand to newer players...
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So you guys are cool with survivors being able to see gen auras at all times? great!
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I do my best not to tunnel and whatnot. This information would just help me with that where someone who doesn't care is going to hook them.
It would especially be nice when BPS are in play. I've made it a bit of a personal rule that if multiple survivors use BPS, I do my very best NOT to sacrifice someone as my own little thank you. But I've accidentally done it anyway as I either lost track or mixed up survivors. Something like a counter would be a God send. I get that it's probably a rare thing since this is just kind of my own made up rule but still...
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The only reason why they aren't adding it is because it MIGHT make some players tunnel slightly more often.
Why do you have generator numbers in the UI then ? Survivors knowing how many generators are left can make them tunnel gens when they see there's only 1 left. Is that ok ? Doing their objective because it's close to getting done, the nerve.
UI warnning them about it really increases the times when they tunnel gens. You should remove it so they have to remember how many gens are left to be repaired. Or does the power of double standarts prevent that from happening at least in term of UI. It's such a silly reasoning.
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This. with how much information you have to process as a killer (e.g. visual/audio information you need to be focusing on to find survivors, what gens you need to be keeping an eye on because you've chased them away form it, who has perks like dead hard, borrowed time, etc. how best to loop this tile to get a hit) its not surprising people lose track of how many hook stages all 4 survivors are at, especially playing back to back games that all merge into one.
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ah yes,
afraidiumDwight colored. It's yellow & tastes like chicken.2 -
not gonna lie, I'll take a protection hit mostly if I still need a wglf stack, or we're running through the hall or just outside of the exit gate and I know they don't have noed (meaning already hit somebody and they didn't go from fullt o down or the totem was destroyed already for it or I visually confirmed all bones are down on the map already during the game). I haven't played as much in recent months and every time I come back my teammates make me wanna be the second killer in some games.
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No kidding, right? Think about how it is now. The killer has to mentally distinguish between specific survivors, and if they're the same looking survivor, they have to pay attention to their names. They have to pay attention to who happens to get saved before shifting to second state, pay attention to who may have DS, and a ton more.
SO WHY? Why tf would survivors be given that type of information more easily and not both sides?
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I'm going to cut to the chase and point something out that should already be PAINFULLY clear. There is no reason not to give the Killers the exact same information as the Survivors in the new HUD. Why do I say this? Because Killers who make Tunneling a basic part of their strategy already keep track of who they hook. They don't need a HUD to do it. You aren't doing them any favors because they already consider that an important part of their approach. The already know who is who. Do you get my point?
Many casual Killers, who don't Tunnel as part of their strategy, forget who they have hooked and how many times they have done it. These Players would actually use good information to avoid tunneling. In short, the number of people who "might" use the new HUD to tunnel is going to be small, and would be more than offset by the tremendous number of Players who would use it to NOT tunnel by accident. At worst you would break even.
So again, to recap, Killers who Tunnel already know and keep track (on their own) of whom they have hooked. The HUD isn't going to improve their accuracy at all. The only thing it would do is allow Killers who DON'T want to tunnel an option to be more accurate in avoiding the same target.
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I'm disappointed about this, too. They don't want to encourage tunneling, but apparently they do want to encourage the kind of hook swarming body-blocking plays I hate the most.
The other element of it that I don't like is that the killer hook counter implies your goal should be to get 12 hooks, or that "making progress" in the match is synonymous with hooking everyone a ton of times but, in most matches, unless the survivors are really bad, hooking them all three times isn't a realistic outcome. So, you're basically never going to get to the end of the match with a full progress bar and progressing on the bar might not translate into kills.
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BHVR is hilarious with their hook counter, kinda insulting that they assume we need a counter to remember hooking someone. If they deny the same info as the survivor side at least remove the useless counter beyond brown ranks please.
Since playing killer is highly strategic I remember a lot more than just who has been hooked how many times. I'm micromanaging every piece of info I get so I can make the most of it later. If I want to tunnel someone out I can do that right now with or without extra hookstage info on the HUD.
I find more hookstage info for survivor a good change especially for casual solo play. Now I only need a button to turn off the killer hook counter and I'm back to normal without screen clutter.
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By stating toxic behavior is "valid" they implicitly encourage it. Adding the caveat "in certain situations" doesn't help. That they chose not to give the Killers access to information to make certain poor behaviors even easier is the absolute *least* they could do, and they should be doing so much more.
The percentage of toxic Killer matches I have versus good Killers who play well and create a fun match for everyone has been on the rise, and this statement is only going to make it worse, as players take it as permission from TPTB to behave badly. And I've grown tired of the "well, there are perks" excuse that gets repeated. It's simply not possible for a survivor to slot all of the perks needed to deal with every toxic situation, so stating this is how players are supposed to deal with it is not helpful.
I also found the "just trust us, it wouldn't be fun" a little insulting, as though we as players don't know what we find fun/not fun in a game. The best matches I'm in are with Killers who don't engage in any toxic behavior (rare as they are, and I give thumbs-up at the end of the match to every single one of those players) - and they still get their 4Ks more often than not. The difference is that the survivors get to have fun in the match and earn bloodpoints, too.
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got to agree, If they're genuinely not going to give killers the same hook widget as survivors they should add an option to turn it off.
At best its just a pat on the back at worst its a waste of valuable screen space.
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thing is effectively what you've described has been made for survivors, its just not being given to killers.
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It really feels like this some times..
time taken to nerf the meta dominating Decisive strike: 4 years~
time taken to nerf the new meta creating Hex undying: 5 months
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Unless you have the memory of a Goldfish, you should remember who you hooked and how many times. Especially if everyone is using different characters.
Even against clones, if you can't read their name, you can see their UI Hook position and idk.... my brain just knows which one has been hooked because I have good memory? It's genuinely not that hard.
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Yeah its really dumb but the devs are really careful to cater to survivors. It wouldn't effect tunneling you're right, it may effect late game where you're chasing 2 people and ones on death hook and the other is on their first.....but you'll probably remember which is which anyway unless they're using the same skin which apparently who they want to protect
I wish they would drop all the bullshit and just try to make a good game
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I went off on this in ptb feedback but I'll fucken do it again
I assumed the intention was to prevent tunnelling before they confirmed it. Have they ever actually played survivor? Not being given the info has never prevented tunnelling at all, as you only have to focus the hook states of one survivor, which anyone can do. What seeing the individual states might do is prevent accidental tunnelling for those of us who try to avoid it and getting a surprise DS, especially when the survivors all decide to be the same character.
General hook states aren't useful either. If I get a 0k I don't want to know they were all on death hook, that's extra depressing. I don't want it taking up space on the screen at all. If they want to add random crap to the UI make it optional.
They should do that with everything anyway, some people might like this hook counter but most probably don't. A lot would like a totem counter whereas some wouldn't. Some masochists might even want to remove all info for a more immersive feel or for the challenge, introduce a bit of choice into things.
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that's not at all comparable,
Gen auras are secret knowledge that is only shown to the killer so they can patrol and the game isn't made ridiculously easy for survivors
Hook states much like the Generator counter (that is shown to both sides) is common knowledge that if it were the only thing you were focusing on you could count without the UI features
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In the stream they said they wanted console players opinion on the new GUI, as a PS4 player I say this: No. It is too spaced out and it looks like some copy pasted mobile game UI where you can fit ads in. Revert it.
Thank you for coming to my NOED Talk.
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My point is that killers already have more information than survivors do. There's no need to give them a hook counter as well because it would only make tunneling easier, so be happy with what killers got. If it was up to me they wouldn't even be able to see who they are facing in the lobby or what items survivors are carrying.
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Yea I often can remember who I hooked but every so often I will down like 3 people and have it rotate for another 3 downs and then I dont remember who I have hooked
Edit I often play buba and oni so I'm only slugging because its efficient on them
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Then why can't survivors???
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a double standard really is the best way of summing it up.
its fine in behavior's eyes for survivors to be given full hook information so they can body block for those that need it or not waste they're time hanging around to try unhook someone that's on death hook
but in behavior's eyes its a big no no for killers to be given that same information so they can avoid eating a decisive strike, prioritize a confirmed kill and not waste time chasing someone that's hid all game when the game's nearly over and all 4 survivors are still alive.
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It's never going to take long when it's killer related. Undying by itself is useless. It was made with Ruin in mind only to nerf it because survivors REFUSED TO GET OFF GENS.
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Yep, Survivors are being given this so they don't have to remember while Killers are being expected to remember despite the fact Survivors have way less stuff to keep track of compared to Killers
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Agreed, i think part of the problem is people need to fix they're definition of tunneling.
Being solely focused like that is tunneling.
The killer hooking you, then hooking someone else, then choosing to chase you over someone that hasn't been hooked isn't tunneling, its just good prioritization.
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gonna say the same again:
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thing is choosing to go for the confirmed kill over the stage 1 hook is entirely valid but some survivor players seem to take umbrage with that because they're in the mindset that the killer is just there to entertain them not compete against them, and this sort of decision making by the Dev's just reinforces that view.
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The same logic can go the other way around though? If you wanted to tunnel someone it won’t change really if you had a survivor hook counter or not
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Good lord it's not hypocrisy. They made a judgment call about what would be best. You can disagree with their call. But it's hardly some nefarious plot.
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Okay? I really don't know what your talking about.
All I said was it's not a big deal the killer doesn't have the same hook counter because it's easy to keep track mentally, even while I'm stoned.
I dont have any intrest in the pointless tunnel arguments.
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