DS shouldn't trigger on Self Unhooks.
Since DS triggers after being unhooked, is it fair to assume that survivors can still trigger it with Deliverance, or Slipper Meat or just plain luck?
Here's a scenario that happens infrequently but enough to know exactly how it pans out every time:
- Hook 1 survivor.
- Survivor 2 bumrushes hook (usually with BT but not always), and willingly goes down to swap places with Survivor 1.
- Either try to be nice or not wanting to chase a possible BT, pick up Survivor 2 and hook them.
- Survivor 2 immediately unhooks themselves with Deliverance, sometimes not even waiting 5 seconds for you to leave.
- Instantly down them again and try to rehook them.
- "You fell for it fool! Thunder Cross Split Attack!"
- If this was near the exit gates, then as a reward for not slugging and tunneling survivor 1 off hook, you get to watch them both leave, complementary bags of tea free of charge.
Unless they update DS to include Self unhooks as well, some survivors are still gonna be able to abuse this. Yes, it doesn't happen often, but rarity isn't a reason imo to leave something alone, other than on a priority list.
EDIT: For those of you focused on the fact that I dared to mention "Exit Gates" and answered with cries of "Situational!" or "That never happens!", It can happen at ANY point in the game and will still be effective.
The issue at hand here is how little thinking goes into doing something so strong, and how it punishes people who play "fair" more than campers and tunnelers.
Edit number 2: After playing a few hours as survivor running it and sleeping on it, I changed the title. A lot of people are now laughing at me for wanting Deliverance nerfed. I don't want this. My main issue is Self Unhooking. Deliverance is just the easiest means to do this.
Comments
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Pretty sure the image they shared both started being unhooked or unhooking yourself. So it should still proc on deliverance.
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DId they? I guess I should go check the stream again to check this out. I could have sworn they only changed how it can deactivate.
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I believe that is the only change. Current ds also states being unhooked or unhooking yourself.
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From what I understand, the only changes to DS made were that they set conditions for what keeps the perk active.
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New DS is active after unhooking yourself:
Also, I don't understand your reasoning. How is this 'abusing'? The perk is literally working as intended. Deliverance is high risk/high reward. If you get hooked before getting a safe rescue, you completely wasted a perk slot. If they get Deliverance active, then it's meant to have an impact.
Regarding your point 7, there's no reason for you to not slug survivor 1 or at least put them on deep wound. It's purely your choice. If it happens near the exit gates, it means they invested in 3 perks at least (Deliverance, DS, BT) just to get out of that situation. And, also, you didn't hook survivor 2 until endgame. You should be working on that.
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Nah.
Also people look lame when they bring up that endgame scenario for Dstrike, at the point where all they've got left is a straight shot to the door, you've pretty much lost em. It's deserved if they manage to save those perk for that late for the perfect scenario.
You had to have never hook that one with deliverance btw, again, they deserve that save and escape.
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Of course it procs on Self unhooking
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I think the problem here is less Deliverance and more that DS works during the EGC. As killer, it sucks going against BT during the EGC, but as survivor it's fun pulling off clutch saves with it. So, all in all I'm fine with BT. But DS during the EGC is pretty suck. Best bet is to slug, follow them as they crawl to the exit gate, down their friend if he hasn't already run out, and at the last second before they escape pick up the slug just in case they miss the skill check. But yeah, exit gate is open, mostly you're just screwed.
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I mean, this has always been a thing though?
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This is the same reasoning that some survivor follow when they say "Trapper is OP when he traps both exit gates and I'm the last survivor alive"
It's a highly situational scenario and it comes out of multiple assumptions:
- All the gens have been done
- Exit gates are open
- Survivor 2 has never been hooked in the match
- Survivor 2 has 3 specific perks (2 of which are only single-use btw)
- The killer just leaves survivor 1 go after the first BT hit giving a safe hook rescue to survivor 2
- The killer was hooking the survivors VERY close to the open exit gates
- The killer picks up survivor 2 right after downing them
Saying that something is OP because you get full value out of it in certain specific situations is wrong, and yes, rarity IS a reason to leave something alone, especially if when it happens it happens because someone used a build dedicated ONLY to that purpose without the certainty that it would work.
Otherwise I can spin your argument and say "Oh but the same thing could happen with NOED, Bitter Murmur and Blood Warden", should this combo be nerfed only because it works in specific cases? Absolutely not
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Dude, all you need to be able to do this is not be the first person found...then you can commence with Operation: Dickhead.
I knew I should have left the clause about the exit gates out because I knew people would latch onto that only, and dismiss this whole scenario. This can happen at ANY point in the game, only in the endgame does it hurt the most but that is not the issue here.
If I was to start a game right now as survivor, all I need to do is not be immediately found on a gen, then go bumrush the hook when I notice somebody gets downed. As long as I don't get downed before I make it to the hook, I'm golden. BT will pretty much guarantee that I get a safe unhook to proc Deliverance as long as the hooked survivor holds W. If I'm lucky I even get to lead the killer on a chase before they finally down me, but unless they have a one shot, who cares if I get hooked when I can just instantly unhook myself anyway?
After killer hooks me I can immediately unhook myself without caring if the killer is nearby. If the killer is good he will down me, but unless he wants to slug me for 60 seconds (75% of a gen mind you0 he can't hook me again without eating a stun. I've just reduced the killer's pressure back to square one in the most brainless way possible. Who cares if I don't use this at Endgame, when doing this in the early game hurts the killers pressure so much?
...Sorry for ranting, just sick and tired of people seeing "Endgame" and dismissing all else. Even if this isn't OP (I agree it isn't) it still isn't a healthy way to play, as it it is brainless on the survivor's side and feels rediculous on the killer's side.
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"If the killer is good he will down me, but unless he wants to slug me for 60 seconds (75% of a gen mind you0 he can't hook me again without eating a stun. I've just reduced the killer's pressure back to square one in the most brainless way possible."
But... slugging doesn't reduce the killer's pressure back to square one. Slugging is one of the best ways to create pressure. It takes the killer time to carry a survivor to the hook and put the survivor on it; it takes hardly any time for a survivor to pull someone off the hook, and then survivors get BT and DS. For survivors, picking up a slug can take more time. And while that survivor is slugged, it's one fewer person on a gen, and that's always good.
One of the reasons some of us probably latched onto the EGC part is because that's the time when slugging a survivor can be useless.
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I could also just jump in a locker and force the stun if I wanted. Being slugged is much more preferable to being hooked, and I could also just use unbreakable to create another no win scenario. People seem to believe that it is hard to recreate what I just explained here, when it really isn't. Don't get found first, and don't get downed before you can unhook somebody, unless its a trade.
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A lot of people have crap luck and always get found first when they run Deliverance. I know that's what happens to me every time.
Anyway, if they pick themselves up, then at least they're using their Unbreakable. If they don't have Unbreakable, then you're creating pressure. As a survivor I sometimes like being slugged over being hooked. Sometimes. If I end up spending almost 4 minutes on the ground, then I'd prefer to have been hooked. As killer I'll slug to slow the match down, because it often slows down gen repair more than hooking does.
None of that is really the point, though. The problem here isn't the scenarios we're talking about. What it really comes down to is survivors being able to stack 2nd chance perks. It's not specifically about Deliverance and DS, it's also about Unbreakable and Soul Guard and BT. They can bring 4 get-out-of-jail-free cards into a match, and it's ridiculous, especially when multiple survivors do it.
Survivors being able to stack 2nd chance perks sucks, it does. It's also a larger problem than just Deliverance and DS.
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Why should deliverance be changed? It is still a very weak perk. Play 100 matches in a row with Deliverance and DS and tell me how often u escaped thanks to this... Im sure you'll be disappointed
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It ain't a weak perk at all. As long as you play safe at the beginning of the game, you can reliably trigger it as long as you aren't stupid. But if you wanna be stupid just throw BT on and only Leatherface can really stop you from getting Deliverance activated.
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I agree the real issue is stacking second chance perks. Deliverance is supposed to be a risky choice, but stack it with BT and it's super easy to trigger. Or stack it with DS and you can do literally just get off for free. Or stack it with Unbreakable so you can do a bad trade for free.
Or stack ALL of them at once to make killers tear their hair out.
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That seems to be an extremly specific situation to be in that needs 2-3 perks.
You need BT to ensure you get the safe unhook cause if the killer decides to just slap down the unhooked one you are screwed or you need to get an safe unhook earlier in the game
You need to not have been hooked once before the exit gates are open so your team needs to be on a whole better then the killer seeing how you will never take aggro
and nothing is stopping the killer to just smack you down so you need to be close enough to be able to crawl out before 60 seconds have passed.
After jumping through all these hoops they deserve their escape tbh
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Yet another person who focused on the fact I mentioned "exit gates". Deliverance is not super hard to trigger, I've been playing the last few hours as survivor running Kindred, BT, DS and Deliverance. All super strong perks that have helped me stop the pressure the killer is putting out.
This combo is NOT hard to trigger, if I get to use it at end game its a bonus, not the objective.
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And if you are unlucky to get hooked first it does nothing.
That it's strong doesn't mean it's broken. You have to jump through atleast some hoops so you deserve a somewhat powerfull effect
I don't even see how the DS changes affect this. You could do this right now right?
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Deliverance is the most reliable (but not the only) way to self unhook.
DS triggers currently on self unhooks.
Proposed nerfs to DS will stop survivors from doing risky plays because of DS.
Self unhooking is a risky play currently protected by DS.
Ergo, DS should not trigger on self unhooks.
That is the basis of what I am discussing about Deliverance and their interaction as a whole. And no, Deliverance is not hard to trigger at all, especially if you run BT and just play a bit safe at the start.
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Proposed DS will prevent survivors from PROGRESSING the game AFTER they get off the hook and retain DS. The devs told us so much. In none of your scenarios the survivors are progressing the game after getting off the hook.
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As u said u have to play safe... that means playing sneaky... wasting time... Well, at the start of a match u hide urself instead of doing a gen instantly. Otherwise the killer could find and hunt u. Then u have to get an safe unhook, even if the hooked guy is on the other side of the map next to another teammate and u hav to leave ur gen. So uve got activated Deliverance - congratulations. Now there two possibilities:
1. The killer hooks u before the last gen is activated. So u unhook urself. ---> perk slot and time wasted, cuz another guy could have saved u
2. You reached it to the EGC without getting hooked, what rareley happens to average survivors -----> Perk slot and time also wasted. Why? Maybe u could have escaped without getting hooked. Even if u get hooked there are still 1-3 teammates who can save u with BT.
Back to the situation u described. All in all u are complaining about not being able to tunnel a guy down, who unhooked himself :)
And no, Im not a survivor main, just being experienced at both roles. I never thought, that Deliverance + BT + DS could be a problem.
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I'm not sure how you got the idea that I'm complaining about not being able to tunnel someone who unhooked themselves 5 seconds after they got hooked, because nobody is getting tunneled in that situation, just a survivor being able to get away for free.
You don't have to be hiding in a locker, just don't be stupid and play a little safe at the beginning and just immediately rush the hook when they catch someone.
Unhooking yourself means another survivor doesn't need to stop working on a gen and rescue you; you even mentioned this yourself.
I'm pretty sure unhooking a survivor counts as progressing the game to me, so why should self unhooks be treated differently?
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Deliverance does not need to be nerfed. It's already a very situational perk that isn't that strong to begin with.
This situation you're describing isn't a problem now, so why would it be a problem after Decisive Strike cops its (deserved) nerf?
If they manage to pull this off, they're down two perks for the purpose of a single escape (and it's not like they avoided the hook stage anyway, they still got hooked).
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if you're at the point where the gates are open, two (or more) survivors are not on deathhook yet and (at least) one hasnt even been hooked once, maybe you deserve to lose that game?
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That doesn't refute my point at all.
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Sounds to me like you have a problem with Deliverance itself more than with DS then
Imagine your generic scenario:
You are a survivor, you have BT, Deliverance and DS.
At the beginning of the match you make sure the killer doesn't find you first because you MUST use your Deliverance so you hide lika a rat until someone goes down.
David gets downed, finally (let's say 1 minute into the match, maybe 2) so you immediately start heading towards him because you must be sure you unhook him so you get your Deliverance
You unhook David, the killer finds you and you go down
You get hooked.
Now you have 2 choices:
- Wait until the killer gets far to unhook yourself (risking that someone else will rush the hook and save you)
- You unhook yourself right after the killer turns his back at you
Option 1:
Let's say you unhooked yourself without the help of other survivors (who were coming towards the hook anyway): GG, now what? The killer is far away so you either go out your way to harass him (making it very obvious you have DS) or you go being productive somewhere else (deactivating your DS)
Is this a problematic situation that needs to be solved? Why?
Option 2:
You unhook yourself, the killer turns around and downs you but A-HA!, you have DS, he can't pick you up for 60 seconds (which is EXACTLY the period of time you have a little "Broken" icon over your name BTW, so the killer could easily know when your DS is over), but let's say the killer picks you up, (who cares? It's the beginning of the match, better get rid of a DS now than later right?), you stun the killer, the killer downs you again after 30 seconds (?) and now you're in second stage, GG champ
But wait, you say you are good at looping so there is no way the killer can down you so quick after a DS? Ok, enjoy the rest of the match with only 2 perks I guess? Was it worth it?
Deliverance is a strong perk, no one can deny it, but that doesn't mean it needs a nerf, even because it's a situational perk by its own since unless you unhook someone before being hooked it's useless
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I'm not saying Deliverance is hard to trigger.
But the posibility does exist that if you get caught first it's useless. If all 4 survivors bring it it's a dead perk for at least one of them
Deliverance + DS was never a problem in the past I don't see why it would be a problem now.
If anything it's a good thing. I would like seeing perks like Diliverance more instead of every match being the same perk setup.
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At most you would see 2 people have deliverance, its impossible to have 3 people with it active.
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This is exactly what tunneling means :D It doesnt matter if Dweet unhooks himself or gets unhooked by a greedy Meg ;) If u focus him after the unhook it is still tunneling :D
I mean it is ur opinion, dont get me wrong, but for the majority Deliverance isnt a big thing even in those synergy with DS + BT. If u dont wanna get stunned u can ignore the guy and go for the next survivor.
As a Killer I care more about Perks like DH and OoO (ab)used by experienced survivors :D Deliverance never made me loose a game :) Good survivors destroy me without Deliverance :D
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Far too situational for it to be an issue. The gate being open is the only time this will matter. Even then there's so many ways it can fail it's still pretty rare.
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I have a problem with self unhooking still triggering DS and allowing them to run to safety for free. Just this night on stream I bum rushed the basement with no thought whatsoever because I knew the killer couldn't do much to stop me from getting out of the basement after he hooks me.
You do NOT have to become an immersed Claudette to not get found first. Just play 10% safer than normal and don't blatantly stay on a gen before the killer comes to check your gen, then immediately get back on.
Option 1 is fine and I see no issues with self unhooking yourself with Deliverance doing this.
Option 2 is the scenario I do have a problem with. Because believe it or not, it IS strong to waste the killer's time doing this at the start of the match ( more like halfway into the match but this is arguing semantics).
EDIT: Time stamp at 6:38:00
I literally sprint behind this killer as they hook this streamer because IDGAF if they hook me after. Who cares if DS deactivates after getting back on a gen when I can use it to pull off dumb escapes like this?
Post edited by ExcelSword on0 -
I am not at all worried about deliverance. It makes sense for DS to activate with it, as by the design of the perk it should activate any time you are unhooked. It already doesn't work with PH's cages, that's more than fair.
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Ghost wraith scratch Myers ghost face swiping a survivor into the dream with Freddy which counts as oblivious removing your tr leather face oni swing blights power
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Option 2 is the scenario I do have a problem with. Because believe it or not, it IS strong to waste the killer's time doing this at the start of the match ( more like halfway into the match but this is arguing semantics).
Is it?
You're not getting away FOR FREE, you give the killer one hook state for free, you are literally ONE STEP CLOSER to death if you unhook yourself with Deliverance in front of the killer, and unless you do it during EGC when the doors are open (and hats off if you manage to pull this off since you have to be NEVER HOOKED until endgame) the only one who benefits from that is the killer, who just skipped your first hook in like what, 10 seconds?
P.S. If you're going to link a 7 hours long stream without giving a timestamp to check, noone in their right mind is going to watch it
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Forgive me, It didn't survive the embedding into the post.
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I have advocated for DS not activating during endgame collapse for this very reason. It encourages hook swapping at the very end, and combined with BT can ensure that all the survivors get away. There is no tunneling during end game so everyone should be fine with it.
Or, deactivate when you are the last survivor in the match.
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The problem scenario is hooks near the exit gate during endgame collapse. I have had multiple times where the survivor either gets themselves off of hook or a teammate pulls them off knowing they have DS and they simply have 60 seconds to crawl out..and I can just watch.
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You DO NOT deserve a free kill by deactivating perks solely because all gens are powered and the exit gates are opened.
Even if this were the case you'd be left standing in front of the hook while the other Survivor's escape because there is no way to rescue.
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Yes it should.
This works when other survivors cannot possibly safely unhook you and the killer is facecamping you.
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1. The killer hooked the survivor that close to the exit gate, it's a risky move even without considering DS
2. If they pull themself off they were never hooked the whole match, and maybe they deserve to escape
3. The only slightly problematic case might be when someone else unhooks them knowing they have DS, but even there, a survivor has to avoid using it the whole match
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I watched the stream
It worked in the survivors favor only because it was at the end of the match, do that ######### at the beginning or the middle of the match and it benefits only the killer
Doing a hook trade like you did in the stream, and unhooking yourself as soon as you get hooked is usually detrimental for survivors, because you speed up the sacrifice process by a lot
It's just like using a DS in the middle of the game, useful? Sure, OP? Absolutely not
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I don't really like when people argue something is fine because "There's a chance you might not even get to use it." Imagine if you applied that same logic to countless other perks, like NOED. "NOED is fine because there's a chance I kill all the survivors before I get to use it."
I don't think you should be able to unhook yourself any more than people shouldn't be able to get themselves up off the ground themselves, or even heal themselves without a medkit. It's a team game after all. But at least if someone uses it, it's pretty safe to assume they have DS anyway.
But again, if you're using Deliverance, then the most likely scenarios are that you use it when the killer isn't close, in which case you'll have deactivated it because you'll be safe, or you'll use it when the killer is nearby, in which case the killer will see you're unable to heal and 100% assume you have DS and leave you slugged.
Either way, it's not a big deal, but DS still runs into issues itself when it comes to the endgame. But if you reach that point, you've kind of already lost anyway.
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They don't deserve that escape, they ######### died and now used such skill as holding m1 to instantly revive themselves and render themselves invunerable for a minute.
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And the killer failed to make sure no survivor could deliverance at the end.
Or, you couldn't down that one who managed to deliverance out.
Hook everyone at least once before the end of the game, and this wont be an issue.
They definitely deserve it if they managed to stay alive the whole time.
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what you're saying is you want me to camp? You want me to sit there and make sure every survivor goes in for at least a trade and then personally guarantee, that a niche perk only used in certain scenarios is unable to be used.
Also the end game is the end GAME it's not the time where if you die it's all right because it's still the GAME, if you die at any point in the game, you get punished, that should be the same with the end game. you shouldn't get 15 seconds of bt, a free health state, a 5 second stun and a 20 second head start. you can be 140-150 meters away from an exit gate and still get out by holding W, without accounting any exhaustion perks, hits taken by team mates, insta heals, inefficient pathing, and not even accounting a single pallet or ######### window not even the ######### speed boost you get from being hit.
All I have to do to get a free 150 meters to an exit gate is: ######### die, have a team mate hold m1, hold W, get hit, get hit again, get picked up, press space, Hold W, win DBD.
Also, on the hook everybody, what am I supposed to do when there's a dickhead adam, running round jerking himself in lockers whenever I'm within 100Mtrs of me? That's a totally viable strategy and wil loften get him free hatch or gate escapes, so why search every locker in my vacinity and lose the game, to spite him?
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