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What's the point of Deep Wounds?
I'm asking this so I may plan my take on the Legion buff/rework.
But in order to do this, I have to ask the question...
What is the point of deep wounds? What is it trying to achieve, and does it truly achieve the effect, or does it lack in a field?
After I get an acceptable answer, I'll ask another question, this time, related to Legion directly.
Comments
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The point of Deep Wounds is to kill someone if they don't heal themselves.
It's a purely disruptive effect.
Instead of taking the hit, and getting right on a generator, you need to stop and Mend because of you don't you die. It's a mandatory time sink to delay Survivors.
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I see.
And does it achieve said effect to where it's effective in higher play?
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Deep Wounds is an effect that puts Survivors in a "bleed out" mode where they have the opportunity to heal themselves before they die. It's used not just for Legion but for other effects that require an extra hit to provide protection, like Borrowed Time or Mettle of Man.
Originally Deep Wounds didn't exist and the perks/effects that used it didn't have Bleedout Time. They just had a similar effect (bleed out or die) so the devs consolidated them all into one status effect for consistency and simplicity.
Legion's design from the get go was to create a stabfest killer who was good at finding survivors and injuring them to keep them from doing things. He exceled in chases because basically he was an "evil" survivor who had all the parkour moves of a normal survivor. To balance this he was not as powerful at actually downing survivors, which is why he had the proto "Deep Wounds" effect. At its core Legion is meant to be a stab-happy killer who excels at locating and chasing survivors but is not good at downing them.
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It's not super effective at high rank play and the chance of a survivor getting downed by it is 1/10 games, but other than being a disruptive feature, it is also great at preventing specific heals such as adrenaline, second wind, etc. If those instant heals occur and the survivor is deep wounded, it will heal the deep wound instead of a health state. That's probably the best thing deep wound is good at tbh.
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It's not a purely disruptive effect. There are effects where you use it to protect a survivor, like Borrowed Time.
And to answer OP's question yes it achieves its desired effect in high level play.
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That's a good post!
Getting back to the point at hand...
The Legion must be considered weak because of his weakness of downing survivors slower than most killers...
Deep Wounds, as the other 2 folks mentioned, slows down the progress survivors make...
The old Legion required several hits and spamming of his ability to down a survivor. Current Legion makes it so you're rewarded with hitting a survivor normally, and *nothing else* occurs aside from massive pressure in the form of deep wounds from chained hits, and even then, it looks like it doesn't achieve it's effect properly, since survivors just mend up after they're struck. The power serves effectiveness in chases when it's used to not start a chain.
So why not an ability that rewards the Legion for doing the job he's been given?
This is good info, thanks!
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Mettle of Man is the only extra hit perk that does not put the survivor into Deep Wounds. Which considering how much effort you have to activate it is honestly fair that it doesn't deep wound the survivor.
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DW has 2 purposes
1) serving as a psuedo health state for perks like BT and Soul Guard. I means getting hit isn't inconsequential but also won't just down you on the spot.
2) When used on killers like Legion and Deathslinger, it's a stall tool. If a survivor has it, then they have to mend eventually or they die. It helps by the two time which they need, thanks to Slinger's low map pressure and Legion's poor 1v1 potential.
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It's still a disruptive effect. It's just self-inflicted in the case of Borrowed Time. The mechanical function is the same - it stalls Survivors by making them tend to a micro-errand to continue playing. Whereas in the case of Legion it is inflicted as a reward for using his power and hitting a Basic, Borrowed Time uses it as an opportunity cost.
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The point of Deep Wound when it is inflicted by a Killer is to give that Killer some natural game slow down and the option to switch targets more easily because that person with Deep Wound won't really be able to just instantly go back to being productive because if they do for too long, they'll go down.
For Legion, it does its job very well. His playstyle of using Frenzy to harass every survivor on the map if they're near each other would not function without it. It doesn't function quite as well for Deathslinger, but that has more to do with him not getting an information dump when he hits someone with his power, so finding a Survivor to switch to is more difficult.
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There is very little difference between old legion and new legion in terms of mechanics. Both require 2 hits to down survivor, if power is on hit puts them into bleedout mode and hits in frenzy will never down them.
Mending slows down the game. That is 100% intended and that's exactly what happens even in red ranks. If your problem is you think his power doesn't slow down the game and is ineffective, you can stop right there because it does. Is his power weak? Well arguably yes, because he drags games out instead of being efficient at stomping in 2 minutes.
But Legion was never and should never be a high lethality killer who can end matches in 2 minutes like some of the other killers.
If you are not using Legion to chain from Frenzies you shouldn't use Legion. If you are just using him to Frenzy to run faster then turn it off after you hit a survivor you are better off using another killer. While I do see advanced Legion players doing exactly that, it's not their primary strategy. They still go on stabfests to slow the game down, and use Frenzy as a speed burst to down injured survivors when needed.
I don't know what rework you have in mind but if we're talking about his ability doing what it's supposed to it does exactly that, and then some. Could his delaying ability use a buff? Maybe. But with Sloppy Butcher and Thana it's largely not necessary. He does what he need to do just fine.
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Oh it wasn't deep wounds? My bad. Goes to how I don't use it lol.
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I actually very much use legion as intended.
I do chain as intended, and oftentimes get games where the entire team is injured and bleeding out slowly.
Though there are times where I feel like the generators are still being done ridiculously fast right after they spend 8 seconds mending themselves.
Even when I restart the stabbing spree, it keeps going, and it gets boring because legion has no way to shake up how he does his job.
Just sprinting, stabbing, stopping, doing M1 killer things, and then repeating when the survivors have mostly mended up.
His perks and even ability, true, benefit from survivors being close together, there's no real downside other than you slowing them with a status effect and ending up chasing only one because you can't go farther with it as the other one regenerates.
Though, thankfully, I feel like I have a possible solution to that.
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Deep wounds is never supposed to down someone. It's there to give them a health state they have to heal before doing a generator.
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Which is simultaneously weak and incredibly annoying, hence why it needs changed.
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THe point is to theroretically slow down the survivors and make them waste a little time. The problem is its too little time, and anyone who does deep wounds besides Legion, it dosen't matter. Simply because it affecting only one survivor at a time is not enough slow down with 3 other people on gens, or two on gens and one being chased.
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The point of deep wounds is to stall. every deep wound you apply is a survivor not working on a gen for atleast 12 seconds or 8 if another survivor mends
That's 15% of one gen progression you deny. or 17% in case of another survivor doing the mending
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A killer who is designed to just draw out the length of a trial and is ineffective at actually downing survivors makes a trial no fun for anyone thus ultimately is just a bad killer because they are supposed to kill. Why extend the time playing a match like that when there is no real payoff? Just seems like a waste of time for everyone involved to me.
I’m also noticing that while playing Legion survivors do not consider them a threat in the least, just an inconvenience. A lot of the time when a survivor sees me frenzying they walk right out into the open and take their hit. If I move to the next target they mend right on the spot, if I go out of Frenzy to finish them they create a huge distance while I’m recovering and this becomes a long chase (unless they’re not very good). While in a chase as long as they stay in motion Deep Wounds will do nothing and their teammates will work/finish gens. So unless I down them or I lose them or I disengage to stop the other survivors everything just repeats.
I feel like the Legions power is the weakest killer power in the game so far because it doesn’t even seem to cause pressure to the survivors. It’s just annoying. Maybe if every subsequent affliction after mending Deep Wounds extends the mending timer or lowers the bleed time there would be cause for concern for survivors and would actually try to avoid getting hit. As of now I feel like most survivors don’t take me seriously as Legion unlike the other killers I play and it extends to when I play against them while I’m survivor.
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He says nearly a year later.
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It might be weak and annoying but that's perfect for an edgy teenager is it not? All bark and little bite.
At the very least it recoups a couple of seconds invested in a chase; even if you lose, you can buy back at least a couple seconds. With the current Healspeed meta, you cant speed that up at least.
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You’re not really meant to get downs with it. Deep wound has two main uses (and a third niche use):
- Force survivors to mend - this is 12 seconds of free slowdown. For Legion, this can add up over time.
- A well timed deep wound can prevent a survivor from being fully healed, eg, perks such as Adrenaline, Second Wind, Inner Strength will instead remove deep wound but leave the survivor injured. The same thing happens if you cleanse at a plague fountain while in deep wound - infection is removed but you are left injured (please never do this).
- Niche, but if you’re playing doctor and someone is in madness 3 and doesn’t have much time left to mend they will be physically unable to mend because you have to snap out first, so you can force them to go down or they have to run around and find a teammate to mend them instead.
Overall I think deep wound is fine and isn’t the problem with Legion, it’s pretty much everything else about him that is the problem.
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I was going to answer this but then saw i already did almost a year ago
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Ngl I definitely just answered without realizing someone else bumped and it’s from February
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- What you’re describing are stall tactics, but the only problem is they don’t serve the same purpose. Usually when you are using stall tactics you have a goal in mind like running out the clock or waiting for an opportunity window. This use of Deep Wounds while playing Legion is only designed to slow the game down for all players.
- That kind of comes down to guess work, but would be pretty handy if you pull it off.
- Now that is a really good pressure move. I might have to incorporate that into my Doctor play.
Your probably right and they just have a useful and non threatening killer power.
Sorry if that is a faux pas. This thread was one of the top results for “Dead by Daylight Deep Wounds”. I was looking up ways to make deeps wounds more viable for Legion while I’m leveling them. Guess I shouldn’t have bothered continuing the discussion here.
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It forces a heal where a normal wound can be ignored for the rest of the match. Buys the killer time.
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It is quite okay-ish in higher play compared to most killers since a lot of killers dont have ways of keeping survivors off generators. The issue with Legion is more that he is an m1 killer when it comes to downing survivors.
But things like Blood Echo are quite effective on Legion, since you very rarely have to deal with Dead Hard.
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Actually survivors can be put into deep wound and still work on the gen. It's been done many times to do a gen in the killer's face.
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I would love to have a Deep Wounds effect on the Doctor. He's the only killer that could effectively use it to get downs.
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I'll toss my two cents in here, though it somewhat echoes some people here- Deep Wounds isn't really a lethality tool, you're not supposed to get downs out of it anywhere that it pops up. Legion isn't supposed to get downs by hitting in Feral Frenzy, Deathslinger isn't meant to get downs from it, Borrowed Time isn't even really meant to give you the threat of being downed either. What it is intended for is to slow down the game by forcing survivors to Mend instead of doing anything else- it's like Pig's RBTs, they're not intended for you to reliably get kills with them, they're designed to reliably slow down the game while survivors search boxes, and that's kind of why they're not good right now; they aren't reliable slowdown right now, they're wildly inconsistent.
I wouldn't say that Legion doesn't achieve the intended goal, though. They are very adept at forcing survivors to Mend, their problem is more that they are severely punished with fatigues and cooldowns so capitalising on that minor slowdown is pretty hard, as well as having basically nothing in their kit that actually does help with lethality- even Deathslinger can down, even though Deep Wounds is a part of his kit.
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Game delay.
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To pretend Legion as a killer
You waste a minute, to make survivors waste 12 seconds. Wow, nice trade
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