How Could NOED Be Balanced?
Title
Now that ds is being balanced should noed receive the same treatment?
Noed is obviously a pretty disagreed topic to talk about but what’s something most people could agree on?
Now before people start typing away saying “just do bones”, don’t. Yes you could say the perk has counterplay for that reason but does that make it fair? no. Now you could also say that the counterplay ds is too just slug but does that make ds fair? no, ds is complete bs. Both ds and noed have counterplay but that doesn’t make them fair.
Nord basically just guarantees the killer a kill for no reason and is that fair? maybe in a balanced perspective but that doesn’t mean the perk is fine in its current condition. Balanced or not, the perk is just straight up unhealthy for the game and needs to be altered in a way where it’s still strong but not bullsh1t and doesn’t just guarantee a free kill for no reason.
What are some ways you people would suggest tweaking it to be more healthy and balanced?
Comments
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Noed is fine. There is plenty of counter play to it.
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”fine” doesn’t mean it’s healthy
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It giving someone a kill or not depends on the rest of the team really. Once you see someone has it the surprise is gone and it's easy to usually save whoever was hit by it. Its healthier than a lot of perks currently in the game but it does have a feels bad component if it's you getting hit.
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Cleanse totems, it may be a waste of time in certain situations but if you get killers running Noed often that's what you should do.
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But it is healthy. It gives survivors something other than gens to work on. The killer has to play with 3 perks for the majority of the match, hoping for NOED to activate in endgame. If survivors do their job, it wont activate. Even if it does activate, the survivors have a chance to deactivate it by looking for the lit totem.
It isn't like DS because DS had no counters for 60 seconds. Slugging them wasn't enough since they could still pick themselves back up and still get value out of DS.
The game shouldn't be balanced around bad survivors. Competent survivors should have no trouble with dealing with NOED. You can argue that there was no time to do bones, but the counter argument would be that if the killer pressured you enough to prevent you from cleansing bones, then they did enough work to activate NOED.
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NOED doesn't need a change,
1) it is useless throughout the majority of the trial.
2) it does nothing if endgame never happens, so killing the survivors and hatch plays prevent it
3) cleansing all dull totems prevents it from activating
4) it can be destroyed after it activates by locating the totem and cleansing it
You don't need to do all the bones, you just need to be able to find the lit one after the last gen pops.
I use Detectives Hunch and try to memorize totem locations, I destroy 2 or 3 during the trial, and check the remaining totems if NOED activates.
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How we forget NOED got the DS treatment first.
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It can be balanced simply by people choosing to do Bones. If they just made NOED base kit, not a Totem would ever be standing by the end of the match. The only reason NOED works is because Survivors refuse to do Bones.
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What about where it insta downs only when EGC starts? This is from a killer main.
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I agree the perk is not healthy. Once keys and object get nerfed, I'd be fine for NOED to be destroyed as a perk. Its unfun to go against and survivor.
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I think NOED is more comparable to OoO as they are not op, but just very unfun/unfair to play against so I would suggest a rework without trying to make it a pure nerf.
No One Escapes Death
Each time a Survivor is put into the Dying state by any means gain 1 Token.
Once the Exit Gates are powered gain effects based on how many Tokens you have.
- 1+ Tokens: Reveal Survivors’ Aura while they are opening the Exit Gates.
- 3+ Tokens: Movement speed increased by 3/4/5 %
- 5+ Tokens: Survivors are exposed for 5 seconds per Token you have
- 7+ Tokens: End Game Collapse starts soon as the Exit Gates are powered
What do you guys think of this idea? You have to earn the effects, so camping would be severally punished while trying to use this.
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My idea has always been to remove the Exposed status effect and instead give the Killer the ability to mori survivors regardless of their hook states.
They'd still keep the speed boost as well just no instant down. Personally I think it fits the idea of "No one escapes death" much better and allows the perk to retain a level of respect and power.
Imagine going all match without being hooked and then getting mori'd at the end due to NOED lol kinda like a Rancor sort of thing but yeah. I just like the idea of baking moris into perks now since the mori offerings are hot garbage and this would make NOED feel better for Survivors because they can't be OHKOd by it but good for Killers because they can mori anyone they want with no hook pre requisites
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I've always liked the idea of a counter added to it. Every hook gives a token, with two tokens equaling one down on a healthy survivor. That way, you need to put in some effort into getting the end game effect, but at the same time, crap like Soul Guard and insta heals can't hinder it.
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Actually instead of making the tokens based on how many survivors you've downed, what if it's based on how many totems remain on the map?
- 2 Totems: Reveal Survivors’ Aura while they are opening the Exit Gates.
- 3 Totems: Movement speed increased by 3/4/5 %
- 4 Totems : Survivors are exposed for 5 seconds per Token you have
- 5 Totems : End Game Collapse starts soon as the Exit Gates are powered
NOED's purpose is to counter gen-rush or at the very least survivors who do not care about totems. The problem is the person who cleanses the totems is always the one who gets hit by NOED while their gen-rushing teammates escape without harm. This at least ensures that the totem cleanser can die knowing they've contributed to the team
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It's honestly fine the way it is. The only reason it feels bad is because it makes people feel like they have to compromise on victory. A lot of people have this notion that once the gen's are powered the game is over and the rest of the time is just meant for a victory lap. It's really not. Noed can only honestly guarantee one kill if that. Once that person gets hit it's up to the rest of the team to decide to be super alturistic or just cut their loses. Most times people pick the option of being altruistic then let it all snowball out of control. That's kind of on the survivors, they don't want to be told that despite 'winning' they have to leave one behind.
As I've been getting better and better at Killer I've stopped using NOED entirely because I get more utilization and more kills using other combinations. However it was fantastic to score some pity kills while I was learning to not be such hot garbage.
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If there are no totems left then theres no noed
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good killers understand how terrible it really is as a perk. Getting one unearned kill every 15 games is inconsistent and weak. Far too much counterplay for it to be considered good
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The only unhealthy thing about noed is survivors never ending argument against doing totems.
The whole point of the totems were to create a secondary objective to expand on the fast gen issue. Not addressing the possible danger is a survivor decision that MAY end with repercussions.
Killers only factor is gambling whether they will need it or even see it activate.
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I like that a lot. A solo only needs to cleanse two totems to know the two very strong effects are gone.
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i like that idea
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Like already mentioned, a Token-System would be great.
OhTofu once had an idea in a video I really liked:
- remove the Totem Status-->Doing Dull Totems is mostly a waste of time, wasting time for a Perk the Killer might not even have. And even if they have NOED, there is no guarantee that all Totems are gone, if there is only one Totem left, NOED will activate and it will be most likely the best hidden Totem.
- Each Hook gives the Killer a Stack on NOED
- Once all Gens are done, he gets an effect based on the number of Stacks
- Suggestion from Tofu: 0,5% Movement Speed per Stack (maximum of 4%) and after a certain number of Stacks (I think he said 8, but obviously, numbers can be altered) the Killer also gets the Instadown.
This would actually mean that the Killer has to do something for their Stacks. They did well, but it was just not enough? Lots of Hooks until Endgame? Great, they get a powerful Perk.
Playing Bubba and camping the first guy in the Basement? Ok, but gets almost no Benefit from NOED.
This is how it should be, it should reward the Killer for playing well and not reward them despite sucking all game, just because there is some poor way of "counterplay".
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The main problem with NOED is how it inflates the states. It has been stated by the developers that 2 kills is the goal killers should be aiming for. If the killer gets 2+ kills because of NOED, then the stats go up because of a single perk, not because the killer or player is good. My largest gripe with it, however, is how NOED is way less healthy for the game than Undying, but yet, Undying was nerfed instead.
Anyway, remove the 4% speed boost and NOED will be fine.
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But if I'm cleansing dull totems then how can I gen rush? Gen speed is boring so I need to slam them as fast as possible so I can get back to waiting for my que, obviously.
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If every survivor touches a totem at the start of every trial there’s 1 totem left and the genrush is slowed down by 10 seconds.
Killers never had a chance to counter DS so easily, they always needed to down, hook and then down again BEFORE dealing with it.
JUST DO BONES.
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NOED is fine AND healthy.
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This would have the exact opposite effect.
"No One Escapes Death" - except the other 3 Survivors because they all hit the door and bailed out while you were stunned throughout the entire Mori animation gratuitously killing their ONE friend.
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You mean nerf precious little noed? No what you mean is nerf DS and DH.
In all seriousness, what No Ed needs is a requirement to get it to proc, much like Devour. Never understood why a survivor’s objective being completed benefits the opposing side.
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the only change i'd like to see for noed is removal of the increased movement speed.
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This is what a lot of people already do unless they know exactly where the lit totem for NOED is.
One kill is better than none but killers shouldn't be relying on NOED to help them secure many downs anyhow.
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Why not?
Killers and Survivors "rely" on their perks all the time to achieve effect X or Y.
Why should NOED be any different than a Survivor that "relies" on Adrenaline to escape endgame or "relies" on Dead Hard to avoid dying to a downing hit?
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It should pop up when the gates are powered, not when the killer get's a down
Cursed- Hex: No One Escapes Death
Also @Clueless and @Saltjar34, I think EGC should start when the gates are powered in general... I do like the ideas though
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Adrenaline rewards a survivor for completing their objectives.
NOED rewards a killer for failing their objectives that's how they're different and that's why people complain so much about NOED since it rewards a killer for basically losing up until that point.
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It's supposed to be a crutch, for games that don't go well. Good players won't use it because of its limited use.
However, even better players know how to setup for it and absolutely destroy teams in the end. I really think it's an awful perk, in terms of design, since it's just brute forcing your way to victory (which can feel very cheap), but if it were to be reworked, I would have it only apply in the endgame collapse. If the survivors are good enough to have outlasted you this long, you shouldn't be rewarded for playing badly.
It would also be appreciated if it limited how much you could pip as well. I got to rank 5 with NOED, but the moment I took it off, I sank all the way back to rank 12. Maybe a bloodpoint bonus for survivors sacrificed in the endgame as well; imagine what would happen if survivors had a perk that gave them complete immunity after all gens are done until you go around the map looking for totems.
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That is not how it works. This is a garbage myth perpetuated on these forums.
The Killer did not fail his objective. His objective is to kill. As long as the Survivor is still in the match, he has not failed. He's only failed if they escape.
There are many perks that do not go off until the endgame collapse. It is another phase of the game. It is not "that period of time where the Killer has lost".
I have had many 4Ks that took place during the endgame collapse, none of which used NOED. By this stupid logic, I "failed" the game.
No, that's not how it works. That's not how any of this works.
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Noed only punishes new survivors and survivors who gen rush for a quick match.
Most new survivors have no idea that if noed goes off at the end of the trial then they need to find the lit totem asap, most of them just run around near the downed person freaking out about what to do while someone else crouches in the gates trying to decide if they should also run around the downed person aimlessly or just leave.
Its painful to watch as a solo survivor.
In fact im almost certain it really only works against full solo lobbies in yellow ranks.
But use it on a team where each survivor has more than 20 hours in the game and that lit totem will be found and neutralized within 2 minutes. Its ridiculous how fast it gets taken care of by decent teams. So ridiculous you realize quickly that its a wasted perk slot as killer.
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I'm mean its already balanced. You can get rid of it early or after all the gens are completed. The killer has only 3 perks until noed is activated. Its just pure laziness at this point.
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IMHO NOED is fine but definitely is frustrating to play against.
I almost always run NOED alongside other endgame perks such as Remember Me, Blood Warden, and Rancor. It's a bit cheesy to go from no perks into an insta-downing, exit-gate blocking, obsession moriing powerhouse but it's a fun change of pace.
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I still think noed's is more equivalent to hatch than adrenaline. They both reward the other side for failure. They both give the enemy another chance. One just happens to take up a perk slot.
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Instead of changing NOED, they need to address totems in general.
Since the Undying changes, the only reason to cleanse dull totems now is to avoid NOED, which leads to people ignoring them and complaining when they die to it. The devs just ought to add a reason to do totems.
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Ok I'll give the other players a call. Let them know just do bones. Problem solved.
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Easiest way for noed to be balanced. Make it base kit and a few tweaks to it so its power is equivalent to hatch. Call it killer's hatch.
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You should. That is really all it takes. While Undying + Ruin was BIG people stopped complaining about NOED. The silence about NOED here was very refreshing. The reason is Totems were getting cleansed because the only Objective Survivors seem to care about is Generators, and because of Undying + Ruin they bothered to do them. I played in one match where all five Totems were cleansed in 2:17, and they also got to Generators to boot.
Personally I think NOED should work as follows:
- NOED activates the same as it does now.
- Anyone who has not cleansed at least one Totem is exposed until NOED is cleansed.
- The exit handles to open the gates are locked down by the Entity for a number of seconds depending on how many Totems are still standing.
Thus people who pull their weight will be less hurt by the Perk but still have a vested interest in trying to kill it. People who did not pull their weight are exposed. This would leave ZERO gray area for anyone about what they SHOULD be doing. But that is just me. I rarely run NOED; I don't have a problem with the Perk or look down my nose at it. I just find that it is a wasted Perk slot for me. I'm not an End Game Killer. My NOED would rarely ever even go off, so I just ended up playing a Perk down.
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I actually like your suggestion there. That's decent. Maybe not an exit blocker though but rather the exposed effect lasts throughout the totems remaining.
I know NOED isn't overpowered. I just want to see a solution for solo q and new players. Remember Old Ruin got the same treatment. Was it OP. Of course not because you can hit the great skill check and it does nothing.
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Do we really need more survivors hitting higher ranks when the best they can do is just do gens? That's the main reason solo queue has gotten increasingly worse overtime.
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My argument is player retention. If we make a truly robust ranking system then bad survivors shouldn't climb regardless of what NOED does in the match. Make the rank system purely based off the difficult interactions.
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I think noed is fine and balanced.
If you wanted to approach it from another way such as you think it's annoying or it can be used as too much of a fallback perk by killers who just half arse a game because they only play for noed sure, I would be happy to discuss changes.
However if coming at it from only a nerf standpoint, I don't have much interest in the idea honestly.
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That isnt healthy, that would mean OoO is healthy, because everytime the survivor sees you, you see the survivor so you're guaranteed to find that survivor.
99% of OoO users die before the end of the match, so OoO is healthy by that logic.
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Give totem counter.
But to give something back for Killer, destroy a totem will cause a noise noti.
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How is this better than current NOED? You replace with with Mori it is now insta-death vs insta-down. It doubles down on it's sense of cheapness.
Dislike this because it will basically rule out ever running NOED with other hexes.
Token-based NOED is ideal but should be based on killer behavior, not survivor behavior. E.g. based on the number of hooks or hits.
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Yeah NOED should be next on the chopping block. Luckily nobody in red ranks runs it but if it became a common occurrence there would be so much outrage.
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