There needs to be logical counterplay against Spirit, and when you play as her.
To anyone who thinks a certain streamer gives you logical counterplay against the Spirit actually works, I just had a match against a Stridor Spirit. The crouching tech that muffles your sounds, the baiting of window vaults, and dropping pallet mind games did not do jack of anything. Because how am I supposed to be able to do all this kind of stuff against a Spirit who runs Stridor, who basically knows where I am because she can hear me and I can't make out where she is? If you run Iron Will against a Spirit who doesn't use Stridor and know how to use it properly, that one perk instantly destroys what her entire power is. All I'm asking for is the survivor and Spirit both need logical counterplay of some sort to be able to get the one up on each other, and perks such as Iron Will and Stridor should not be able to do that for them. I don't think Spirit needs a nerf of any sort, but I think a rework that keeps her at least a strong killer as well as having actual counterplay on both sides is what people want. I can't make out what sort of rework I would do to Spirit since I don't main her, but people that have big brains can probably give loads of ideas.
Comments
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there is one go to lerys there is a corner that looks like a little capitalized L you run around that is tightly as possible and if you aren't injured you should hide in the inner corner after about 6 loops you will lose them or loop them for long enough for at least 1 gen to pop
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I think that people who DO main Spirit don't want her reworked. I know I don't.
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If you're doing the crouch tech and she catches you in it, mix it up. Don't just crouch and sit there, crouch for a few seconds then double back. Sometimes don't double back, go to the left or right instead. Or run the best survivor perk: Iron Will. The killer can't catch you if they can't hear you.
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I’ve been saying this but people still think there’s some unknown strategy that works every time.
I’ve tried tru3’s strays and everything recommended to me but they’ve only worked against terrible spirits
Anyone who thinks they have counterplay should do a custom against a good spirit and try them
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A rework isn’t really necessary just make it harder to track survivors while phasing and have a consistent tell for survivors so long as they’re close
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Lots of counter play before even getting to perks that help. It simply requires a little more critical thinking than most killers. Spirit is fine.
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Press ctrl sometimes. It's no different in practicality than bull rushing a Nurse when you know her blink is about to trigger and juking random directions. Sometimes the killer just guesses correctly and hits you anyway, and you can't really do much about that.
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stridor is busted on her, but then when you have a killer who has no sight and relies on sound and iron will exists its only fair that stridor exists too.
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Yeah that’s my issue that it’s just a guess on my side
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Literally every killer has to deal with the "it's just a guess" while dealing with intelligent survivors who actually attempt to juke.
Literally every single killer.
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I try not to even play mind games with her I just hold W and ######### sprint burst to the area of the map that has no gens and use like 2 pallets so that she loses 2 gens if she commits to me.
Smart spirits just drop the chase entirely.
I am also terrible at survivor though so probably don't listen to me haha.
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Well I mean yeah - Spirit doesn't really have a reliable counter aside from run as far as you can. Every other killer has some reliable counterplay within reason however Spirit does not.
If you actually face a good Spirit you'll see that these fake outs and jukes don't affect them. For the most part people just want a tell that she's phasing and that's the main thing. No one really has fun guessing when she's phasing and when she's just passively sitting there.
For example some reasonable adjustments would be
- Spirit affects grass while phasing
- Spirit has some tiny tell on her whether audible or visual while phasing that she is using her power
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Agreed iron will is busted. They need to put a timer on it. But spirit can use other visual things to track survivors
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But those are equal 50/50’s
Spirits are not
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No spirit is often a 50/50 especially when its a window/dropped pallet on which side she guesses you're on.
Quiet literally a 50/50 because if she guesses wrong you get distance.
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Could someone please define exactly "crouch tech" means here?
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No not really. I just wish there was information to work with, so it actually feels like your outplaying the other person. Which is why no complains about Nurse
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Not with all the screeched res users they're not, and besides most pallets are safe as heck
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When survivors crouch they're meant to go quieter, though they actually seem to go fully silent right now (go figure)
The idea is spirit is chasing you as you're running and shes phasing, you stop and crouch to go quiet, the spirit player will keep running forwards right through you assuming you're gonna keep running.....and then you run back, she comes out of phase wondering where the hell you went
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Yeah I am - Same thing happened to Nurse for a reason. It's pretty much one sided when you play against a good Spirit unless the game gives you a bunch of really strong tiles side by side and all survivors are pretty much on the same wavelength.
Trapper can be read - It's not the same thing whether you want to believe it is.
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If you’re healthy yes
But if you’re injured it’s like an 80/20
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Pretty much I agree coming from a Spirit main. I hope the devs can give her some reliable counterplay without making her useless. Also, I’m glad to see you’re not one of those people that are asking for Spirit to get gutted.
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I pretty much feel the same way
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Not necessarily. If a survivor has a habit of faking vaults, next time they run to a vault don't lunge and wait.
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What about nurse or twins or freddy? Spirit is pretty fair how she is now.
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Ok, like what?
You can't just say "oh ya there's counterplay" then not list any options of counterplay.
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the same people that bring perks with no counterplay, abuse god loops and want every killer to be "loopable" cry that spirit and other killers they dont like have no counterplay. Go figure.
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I want spirit to be fair because the idea of a killer focused on interesting predictions is very cool but she’s just too strong right now
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It feels almost impossible to counter her.
I had Iron Will against Spirit, it gave me some hope when she couldn't find me. . but not for long.
I hope she will get changed after Freddy.
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The counter play is in her power. She loses visuals and that's when you have your window to act. If your not using stealth and maneuvering around her before the chase, your losing the first advantage. Being injured gives the advantage to stridor, so after that it's about breaking los, using scratches from a loop to mask directions, and continuously adding distance to limit sound location. Stationary tactics only work when the spirit is learning, large mind gamable loops, or no headphones.
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Nurse is fine as is, Twins are just bad design, and Freddy gets everything handed to him because he requires no skill. Same can be said about Spirit
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Exactly this.
Basically spirit requires you to be observant, predictive and think quickly. All learned skills that many don't possess in day to day life let alone a fast reaction speed environment like DBD.
Try watching her chase someone else and see what she does, while being as unpredictable as possible switching up every play. Most of the time I don't catch people with stridor I catch them because I know exactly where they'll be and most of the time they typically are there.
Because people always seem to do the same thing over and over and never change it up.
I've caught all 4 survivors twice each in the same trapper trap in single games before, how just how? Because most people don't know how to change tac.
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B-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-but my favorite toy! Don't change my favorite toy!
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I don't think you're asking for logical counter play here. It sounds more like tangible and 100% effective counterplay.
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That's all well and good in theory.
In practice, Spirit is the one singular killer in the entire game that gives off zero cue as to whether she's using her power or not. It is indistinguishable from her merely standing still. You have zero clue when your "window to act" even is.
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One player on killer understanding player behavior doesn't change they're still having to deal with guess scenarios at other times, like a survivor juking an oni in rage, or a ghostface trying to get stalk off before he's kicked, or a Wraith chasing a survivor around a wall with a pallet in the door, etc. etc.
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Because this topic has already been covered ad nauseum on these forums and I've explained it on here literally dozens of times over the years.
To summarize lots of explanation:
You counter most killers by reacting to what they do. IE you are being re-active.
However.
Against Spirit you do the exact opposite. You have to be pro-active, not re-active. You have to force her to react to you, not you reacting to her.
IE if you are looking for feedback from Spirit to react to you are already playing against her incorrectly.
You need to understand what she is seeing and hearing, and then manipulate that to mislead her into guessing incorrectly.
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This is just my approach not unproven theory.
That's the bait & mind game which makes short loops her advantage and why I push for a break of los over pallet standoffs. It's always good to know your surroundings prior to starting the gen to avoid a single good loop leading into being out positioned.
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It’s strange that people want to break down a character simply because they get beat by one. Everyone who plays this game is not automatically good a certain character. To be completely proficient at a certain character takes tons and tons of practice. Look at Michi, that dude is amazing with Hag, if someone was beat by him, should all Hag’s be broken down? He has thousands of hours as Hag, and deserves the right to be awesome with her. I play hag and occasionally get a good play off of a teleport, but I mostly hit trees or air. A whole character shouldn’t be torn down over a few peoples bad beats.
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All I play is Nurse and the nerf needed to happen at least with addons. Base kit changes were a nerf but not by much - The real challenges with Nurse is the bugs she has and she has a lot of them.
Personally the addon changes didn't affect me at all because I don't use addons for her and never will. However Nurse was toned down because a good Nurse meant the game was just over and any mistakes by the Nurse were barely punished if at all. Spirit is on the same wavelength to an extent just not as bad but a good spirit is less fun to vs as opposed to how old Nurse used to be. (Not talking about OG Nurse I mean the Nurse before charges were added)
I do respect the TF2 reference though that game holds a special place in my heart.
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It's clearly obvious that his videos are clickbaity when he titles it something like "MiNdGaMiNg A SpIrEh FoR FiVe GeNs". It's clear that the video is showing you playing against an inexperienced player, he has another video with the title of why he doesn't think Hag is S Tier when's clearly going against an inexperienced Hag player. The man has quite an ego I'll say
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In order for them to make changes to spirit, sound has to be working properly. And that is never going to happen.
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You are not predicting you are guessing. Predicting assumes some kind of information you have that you can work with, since spirit gives you no information you can only guess.
Also anyone saying that spirit has counterplay probably also think that playing a one armed bandit has counterplay. Any spirit with working ears hears you. You can sprint, walk or crouch, you still make noises. You slow vault a pallet, that makes a noise. You move trough grass that makes noise. You walk towards a spirit that you think is phasing, you still breathe, also on a lot of skins you cant tell if she is phasing or just standing still.
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”guessing”
Aint that what an m1 killer does with a mindgame? And thats at pallets that allow a mindgame, many dont
But you’ll never hear survivors complain about a lack of counterplay there
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U mean if she's psychic or hacking she'll never fall for those baits?
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Not every loop is mindgameable. In mindgameable loops you have two parties that are guessing. Against a spirit only one party is guessing at EVERY loop ( the survivor ), the spirit can just hear where you are. Thats the difference.
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U put easily in the wrong spot then.
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Nah if we're using your definitions. The spirit predicts. The survivors guess.
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There's a reason why I brought up windows/pallets as nearly ALL killers powers can hit you if you're caught out in the open so singling out spirit for that is meaningless.
Aka If nearly everyone(pretty much only the blight can't hit you there) has a 100% chance to hit you there(Including instant down killers like billy/Bubba) then there's no point in bringing it up as an example against specific killer.
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I dont know why you think the spirit is predicting. The spirit hears where you are, there is no uncertainty in that.
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